00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone Paul how you doing today. 00:05.51 Paul Do fine. It's a nice fall weather here and I'm hoping to get away from it before it gets any colder I just found out that we want a new project in Saudi and so it's ah, quite likely that I'm going to be heading out in a week or 2 to to go lead this. It's going to be a big ah big. 00:19.31 archpodnet Um. 00:22.90 Paul Overhead power transmission line survey. So um, yeah, it's not something I've done before but I've done a lot of so survey work there and I'm looking forward to getting back out in the field. How are you doing Chris. 00:25.66 archpodnet Ah. 00:28.32 archpodnet There you go I'm doing all right? Yeah, we're on our way across the country to North Carolina we usually go there for Mid -november to end a December time frame to you know visit with my wife's family for the holidays and so we're we're currently in Alabama but it's nice and not too hot here which is not something usually say about Alabama. 00:47.50 Paul Enough. 00:48.28 archpodnet But you know I was going to say you get that project. You're just like a typical new yorker wintering in Saudi Arabia I'm telling you so so maybe not everybody's doing it. You're gonna have to just get an apartment over there start bringing your wife over you know, just ah, you know make a make a time of it. 00:56.48 Paul Ah, everybody's doing it now. 01:05.26 Paul Well, we've got we've got a house that we rent So I don't need an apartment but I am considering buying a car out there for myself. 01:06.90 archpodnet So. 01:13.16 archpodnet Ah, yeah, all right? Well today speaking of working abroad. Um, we have someone on calling from Mexico today and we actually had her on back in episode 134 which we will link to in the show notes we're going to get an update on some of the things she's working on. And maybe some new information as well. So welcome to the show Denise Argotey 01:32.53 Denisse Argote Hi hi Chris hi Paul. It's nice to be here with you. 01:36.77 archpodnet All right? Yeah so why should just start off by you know, reacquainting our audience with with who you are and and what you're doing like where you're working right now and and just some some overall general details. 01:37.18 Paul Hi Glad to have you back. 01:52.27 Denisse Argote And well you say already and Denis are god um, live here in Mexico I'm an archaeologist but I also work a lot with archaeological or archemetrical methods and techniques. I applied them to the study of archaeological sites and materials I keep working here in Mexico City in several sites I've been working on Chattiwacan Chi and itsa mitla just to say some few of the sites that I have worked with but. I mean all the work that we have done me and all the colleagues that work with me. Well it's has been pretty pretty cool. 02:35.29 archpodnet Yeah, awesome. Well so we linked to an article in this episode um from the journal of archaeological science. It was published in June of 2020 designing the underworld in Teo T wahan cave detection beneath the moon pyramid by ert and a and t surveys and we talked to you about that on the last show. So we can reference that last that other show for if people want to know more about that. But I'm just wondering. Um, starting with Te O T Wacon have you guys been back there since then and doing additional work. What what kind of update can you give us on that. 03:07.66 Denisse Argote Where we also work on another area of our here archeology that is portable floreences but this was applied to the moral paintings. We haven't been working on the geophysical part. Ah. 03:19.45 archpodnet Um. 03:24.45 Denisse Argote We stopped that project but we keep on working with on the other area that is hipchemistry and we also find very interesting things like I don't know if you you know C never is a mineral that was used to pains. 03:32.82 archpodnet Um. 03:38.42 archpodnet Yeah. 03:42.91 Denisse Argote Some bodies. Ah some burreals and we also found that in the mural paintings. It. It was never been found before not into tiacca maybe in the imagine area but not into tuac and it was the first time that we found on a standing. Mural paintings the application of this mineral I mean if you mean maybe the audience doesn't know what Cever is but it's a mirror a mineral that is made from mercury on sulphur it is kind of toxic. 04:10.84 archpodnet Um. 04:14.11 archpodnet Right. 04:14.95 Paul Now. 04:19.29 Denisse Argote So I'm not surprised that ancient people didn't use it often but in in the kind of the in in the place of Tatuacan is some substructured we found this mineral. 04:26.27 archpodnet Um. 04:34.40 Denisse Argote Years applied on mural painting so that was also a really interesting time. 04:39.70 archpodnet Nice. 04:42.17 Paul Yeah I'm ah actually as soon as you mentioned cinnabar I thought oh mercury and my and you said on graves. Um, my only real knowledge of it is that cinnabar was found on some of the bodies at the at the royal cemetery of or in Iraq. And it's presumed that it might have been used in part as a um as a preservative. Do you know if that's the same thing with these. Ah the mexican graves that ah that have cinnabar in them. 05:07.60 Denisse Argote Well, the Cinema had more on like a cosmmoganic point of view like a worldwide vision. It was not because of the preservation of the bodies. It was more related. 05:16.38 Paul Ah. 05:22.14 Denisse Argote To the way that they saw in our and ah related to the way that blood itself behaves Why way is this because Cin ava when it's applied and is oxide. It gets black. 05:40.74 archpodnet Ah. 05:40.84 Denisse Argote Obscure dark um blood does the same way if you will leave blood stains in in a wall and get oxide. It also gets a little bit dark. So in this way they related. 05:40.89 Paul M. 05:58.31 Denisse Argote And and the color is is red. Also I mean there are several characteristics that relates sinnava to blood. So blood is life. Ah, blood is ah the substance that give the that all people gave to the gods to maintain and sustain life. 06:02.25 Paul Um. 06:15.23 Paul And. 06:17.55 Denisse Argote So There are several magical association religious association and that was the motive that they use C sinvare to apply to the boreals and some other materials. We Also found Sinavare in Injichinia. There is so also an Article. We published in 2017 about ah and a sculpture that is inside the Castle. The castle is ah the greatest pyramid in Chichanisa Also known as the coul can temple. 06:49.70 Paul Um. 06:50.30 archpodnet Um. 06:51.42 Denisse Argote Inside of it. There is a nation substruct Yeah substructure Another yeah, an older pyramid and inside this pyramid. There is a temple inside the temple there are two sculptures a chap mall and a jaward thronene. This throne is painted in red and this red painting is cinenabare and Emethi. So. There's also so another association of this mineral to something that is not human remains not burreals, not bone. 07:29.33 Paul Um, and how what how did you find it on the yeah on the murals. 07:32.70 Denisse Argote With porttaol xray fluorescence this up and this use of new technologies to the study of archaeological sites and materials has been developing a lot in the last twenty years 1 of you. 07:49.15 Paul Move. 07:51.89 Denisse Argote Ah, these elements are portable instruments Every fluorescence make us analyze several several materials you can do sculptures you can do Obsidian you can do bones. 08:09.48 Denisse Argote You can do moral paintings a lot a lot of analyzes that you can do with that and what we obtain is the chemical composition of that material. You're analyzing in this case, moral paintings. We also analyze ah ja trunk with the same instrument. And we are also applying it to provenance studies of Obsidian materials. 08:36.10 archpodnet I'm just wondering you know this is the archaeo tech podcast that we like to you know, expose our listeners to technology. They may not have used or or explain the use a little bit so I'm curious about the portable xrf which I know we've talked about on this show before and and has actually been around for a little while but can you. Give us some idea as to the practical application of using xrf like is it does it. You know have certain conditions that it works better in. Um, you know how long does the battery last for example I mean you're going out possibly in the middle of nowhere. Do you have to bring extra power sources I mean I Don I don't know anything I've never used one. So. 09:04.57 Denisse Argote I have. 09:12.90 archpodnet Ah, just some practical uses of it. What are some of the considerations. 09:15.00 Denisse Argote Well, this instrument is really practical because it looks like laser gun actually many of my colleagues play with it Anyway, that's some other thing. 09:24.80 archpodnet Um, yeah, ah right. 09:32.80 Denisse Argote And you can take it anywhere I mean you use ah portable batteries too. You just switch them like any instrument that uses Lithium batteries. So it's really practical to take it anywhere. You don't need any special preparation of the materials. 09:39.11 archpodnet True. 09:51.10 Denisse Argote Maybe a little bit of cleaning with a brush a subbrush or something like that. But you just can hold a point at your material and just shoot practically. It also has a trigger so it looks like a. 10:04.31 archpodnet Yeah. 10:09.52 Denisse Argote Like a pistol. 10:10.70 archpodnet Ah, nice. Nice. 10:12.14 Paul Ah, great. So you can take it anywhere where you normally take your Ray gun. Got it. 10:17.40 Denisse Argote Exactly I mean wake up. Ah analyze some morals in the ceiling some paintings in the ceilings of very tall man buildings and I mean believe it if you have any. And Bigger heavier Instrument. You could not take it up and but with this pistol, you just go and shoot all all the all the wall and you don't damage anything this nondestructive. 10:33.57 archpodnet M. 10:34.18 Paul Me. 10:46.45 Denisse Argote Nonalterating and nonymbasive instruments. 10:47.44 archpodnet Nice. So if they make a modern indiana jones movie or Laura Croft or something won't have a pistol on their show on their hip. They'll have a portable xrf right. 10:54.86 Denisse Argote Exactly Well you can see if your enemy is made of any a contaminating material. 11:07.16 archpodnet Ah, nice. Nice. 11:08.41 Paul Ah, so ah, the data that you get back from that. What does it tell I mean I'm presum that you have to process it in some form. What? what? What do you get directly back from the ah from the the Xrf Ray gun. 11:22.52 Denisse Argote Well, you have 2 ah informations ah qualitative and a quantitative information in the qualitative you get ah and spectra or spectrum if you're analyzing just one artipact. 11:39.32 Denisse Argote And a spectra of all the chemical elements that compose your your sample and then you can make a linear regression and using some standards and traduce converse. 11:45.17 archpodnet Okay. 11:46.50 Paul M. 11:58.64 Denisse Argote Convert this spectra into qualities that could be percentages or part per million depending on the element so you got the quantitative part of course the spectra you can see it and and for the for example, in the case of sinenava. 12:04.74 archpodnet So. 12:17.27 Denisse Argote You only need to see the 2 element elements the 2 main elements that compose inna but that is sulfur um mercury if you have these 2 elements in the spectra. Then you know you have c sinnabar. But for example, in the case of Obsidian when we want to know where. 12:25.80 archpodnet Um. 12:35.64 Denisse Argote The the raw materials come from. We need to process this spectra converted to quanities and then statistically process them to make groups and then to know where these artepis that we found in the main. Ah and the main area. Ah, where the raw materials come come from came from you know so there are the 2 parts depends on the objective you have what is the use that you want to make of the the information. 12:56.25 archpodnet Okay. 13:02.88 archpodnet Oh. Just. 13:11.82 Denisse Argote When you have this objective really clear then you can know how to process the data and how to use your instrument to. 13:16.56 archpodnet Okay, all right. Awesome! Thanks for that explanation with that we are going to take a break and come back on the other side and continue this discussion with Denise Argote back in a minute.