00:01.98 archpodnet Welcome back to the arche architect podcast episode 211 that's ah that's a lot of podcasts every time I look at that number Paul anyway, um I think I subconsciously didn't know we were podcasting that high because when I created the link for our show last week. It was like. 00:08.90 Paul Yeah, ah. 00:17.99 archpodnet Think I did 2 10 or one 10 accidentally like subconsciously I'm like there's no way we can be in the 200 s but anyway there we are so go back and listen to the back catalog. There's many years worth of things there all right? So one of the things that brought you into this podcast was discussing. 00:18.45 Paul Yeah. 00:36.54 archpodnet You know, new technologies and methodologies methodologies applied to the study of archaeological sites and artifacts and I know you mentioned you worked in ah chitannia most recently not leaving ti o con just te o two acon just now or maybe we are if you want to talk about chiannia that's fine. But I'm really interested in what some of these. Perhaps newer things are like xrf is something that I would say not everybody uses but it has been around for a little while it's just you know it's just not an instrument. Not everybody has purchased right that that they have but it's the kind of thing that that everybody probably knows about at least to some degree are there anything is there anything that you're using in the last couple of years that maybe is a little bit on the on the fringe or on the cutting edge and and not too many people are using it as well. 01:18.48 Denisse Argote Well I don't know if you know about geophy that is also been applied I believe in the last decade well at this here in Mexico maybe in some other places has been longer. But here in Mexico in the last decade it has been a. 01:26.60 archpodnet Just. 01:34.40 archpodnet Ah. 01:37.53 Denisse Argote Ah, really good development of all these instruments and the application of them in the study of archaeological sites. We have applied them into tiacan as you already said in this article of the journal of archaeological science we have applied them in. Chi Che its sad that it's also a great site and we are recently apply it in Mitla is an archaeological site in wahaca wahaca is one of the greatest cultures that also lived here in Mexico and in ancient times. Ah. 01:58.70 archpodnet Um. 02:15.30 Denisse Argote And we had really good discoveries on all these places I mean in Taakan we found this Cave beneath the moon pyramid and as we can see by the data. It is a natural cave. Tell us that is the only natural cave above which there was a built a pyramid in the the Katza qtal pyramid and there's some pyramid. There are all artificial cavees only in the moon pyramid is a natural cave What does. 02:52.80 archpodnet Um. 02:53.16 Denisse Argote This information tell us is that probably this cave was the focal point for the the whole design of the city is like we are This is a starting point for the design is actually the. 03:02.99 archpodnet Oh. 03:12.32 Denisse Argote The only fixed point in all the Avenue of the dead. So it is really important data because so regarding the discovery We can have a lot of complexions or interpretations about what. 03:18.97 archpodnet Okay. 03:31.92 Denisse Argote The ancient people thought what they use to design the city to trace this ancient city and to decide how it was going to be how it was going to be built it. 03:39.87 archpodnet Me. 03:47.66 Denisse Argote So I believe that is a really great discovery. 03:51.12 archpodnet Yeah I'm curious about that natural cave that was found and and that being kind of the basis in the and the earliest part of the part of the building and construction on the site. What other evidence Do you guys have that's correlating that what evidence do you have? That's showing that this is the earliest the earliest. Ah. You know I I don't know occupation but building period I guess. 04:13.67 Denisse Argote Well, of course there are several um, all other archelogies that have made have made excavations inside the pyramid and they found really old stages of the construction. There are several 7 stages that have been found. 04:29.10 Paul M. 04:29.11 archpodnet Oh well. 04:30.64 Denisse Argote Only for the construction of this pyramid I mean the cave had not been excavated yet. We are trying to convince some authorities to do so at least to give us a little bit of money to do that. But in the meanwhile we only have the information that we instructed by this. 04:41.55 archpodnet Um. 04:50.63 Denisse Argote Ah, the archeological archemettrical means. So and besides that is is what we have I mean the other 2 caves that had been discovered are artificial I mean think of it if you have 3 great pyramids to a. 04:53.20 archpodnet Now. 05:09.84 Denisse Argote The tree of them cup caves beneath 2 of them are artificial and 1 of them is natural. What would you think about that. 05:22.37 Paul Sounds like they're part of a complex right? between the pyramid and the cave going together. Ah in their come up cosmology in some sense. 05:22.62 archpodnet Um. 05:25.37 archpodnet Yeah. 05:26.83 Denisse Argote M. Exactly the caves pyramids and mountains are really important features in the cosmony of for Hispanic people. They made an Axis you know that the University in ancient times. Well they thought. 05:40.16 Paul Um. 05:44.36 Paul No, of course. 05:51.90 Denisse Argote That way was divided in 4 4 portions and in the center was a fit portion. The center was the axe that unifies a the impra world the underworld the so. Superficial world the terrannial world and the divine world and this act was in the middle of the pyramids. So if you have the underworld the pyramid and then the sky you have a nice links all these 3 planes. 06:31.75 archpodnet Okay, is the ah the artificial caves Well do all did these caves intersect I can't remember you said that or not or they is it like a network of caves are they separate amongst the ah in the area there separate. Okay. 06:38.94 Denisse Argote They are separate they separate. Yeah only link to the pyramid that they are beneath. 06:48.22 archpodnet Ah, okay, okay, awesome. Wow! That's really cool. So these cases have been explored. They just haven't been excavated is that what is that right? okay. 06:53.30 Denisse Argote Yeah, yeah, all, there's cu cool cans. Well ketsar po I mean because Cooo can is in the major area is the cuur cans is ah another temple that also have a cave. Well this. This case. Ah partially filledable water in the chiennis ah site and it has the same meaning right? The unification of the tree planes the underworld the terrenial world and the divine world. 07:17.11 archpodnet M. Oh. 07:29.96 Paul Are. 07:30.25 archpodnet Okay. 07:31.63 Denisse Argote I Mean there are several examples in me American sites that have these elements as in in theirs in their cities. So there is some pattern in the worldview of these ancient civilizations. 07:46.71 archpodnet Right. 07:48.20 Paul Yeah, so when we spoke to you last three years ago when you were talking about this I remember being really kind of blown away by the discussion of yeah er t a and a and t and how you were finding how you'd found these caves and the 3 d modeling of them noninvasively or. Basically non-invasively from ah sensors outside. It's been kind of a touchstone something I think about actually fairly regularly for some reason when I'm thinking about you know the 211 episodes of this podcast. Ah um, and I was wondering because I was. Considering you'll reach out to you separately? Um, but I'm so glad that you're here. Anyhow, what other kinds of geophysical techniques have you been ah, pioneering experimenting with using lately because this one here was you know the yeah er r t and ante when you first told us about it. Was absolutely new to me and novel never heard of anything like it before and was like I said was blown away by what you were able to find using them. 08:49.79 Denisse Argote Well eart is a little bit more common in this case in in chinisa 5 years before we use it also to find the cars we need the kupo campfi I mean we also. 08:53.74 Paul M. 09:05.12 Denisse Argote Use them in other small sites in Lascala and idalgo and some other states here in Mexico radar is also very common I'm sure you have heard of it because it's like the most common juphysical instrument that is has been used in a lot of colleagues. Around the world and we are also using it and in all the sites. You know it is really important to who I believe so to use more than just one instrument when you are dealing with our archeological site because like in the case of tiotiwaka. Yeah er t gives you a high value resistance anomaly but you can interpret it like hard rock or like ah or like a boy. So how are you going to to discriminate between these two very different materials. When you use another a second technique that gives you insights of oh it is a low velocity anomaly so it is a boy not not car rock you know so using more than one just technique is. 10:08.16 Paul Um. 10:17.24 archpodnet He. 10:22.73 Denisse Argote Better because give you more information of what you are dealing with what you are finding right? So and is a cismic noise is really new new in the case of archaeological studies. 10:26.38 archpodnet Sure. 10:41.40 Denisse Argote We are also using it now in in mitla in this wahaca archeological site. Ah, we're also getting really good information. For example, Mitla is a site that its name says. Means the the place of the death but very few tongues have been found there. So why was it called the place of the dead if you only have like 2 or Creums right? So there is a a nation legend. 11:13.98 archpodnet Yeah. 11:17.29 Paul Um. 11:19.95 Denisse Argote That says that beneath the spanish a church was ah all a cave system where the asian sapaththec people buried the governments the Kings and all their big authorities. But. 11:35.69 archpodnet No. 11:39.39 Denisse Argote It was but customer been found so was it real or is just a legend so we applied a E artti and and to search beneath the church and actually we found some gapes. 11:40.57 archpodnet Yeah. 11:57.52 Denisse Argote Beneath the church so it it seems more like a real thing than a legend and it's also a good discovery because that explains the name of the city. It is the the place of the dead because all the important. 12:09.33 Paul M. 12:16.68 Denisse Argote High rank authorities were inside these stumps inside these places for real places. 12:23.74 archpodnet Ah. 12:28.25 archpodnet Okay, wow, that's that's pretty cool I love being able to you know, take a ah place name like that right? and then you know, kind of look for the significance behind that. Um it reminded me. It's when you said mitla it. Sounded familiar to me and I had to look it up. We covered a story about that on episode 225 of the archaeological sorry of the archaeology show which came out on July ninth of actually this year so um the article was called the back door to hell that's. That's what they call. It's ah so was very dramatic because it was an article a news article. But ah yeah, um, all right? Well, let's take a break and when we come back, we will wrap up this discussion with Denise a back in a minute. 13:04.55 Paul Ah. 13:05.20 Denisse Argote As this.