00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone Paul how's it going. 00:04.92 Paul It's going all right? Um I'm back in the states for a bit right now I was in Saudi as you know working on a variety of projects the last one I can't talk about too much again being a cm project. But. 00:07.44 archpodnet Um, yeah. 00:17.77 Paul We found some very significant archeology on a site going back into the the middle ages and perhaps some levels as early as pre-islamic which was really really cool. Um, and then I came back because I was supposed to go out to lagosh you know where I've been working the last few years 00:27.80 archpodnet Wow. 00:35.10 Paul And and the project got bumped a week and then a week later it got bumped another week and a few days ago. It got canceled entirely for the season. So now I'm at home spinning my wheels hoping to get back in the field because it turns out that you know ever since I got back into this field archeology thing I'd really much rather be in the field than at home. 00:41.16 archpodnet Ah, ah yeah. 00:53.29 Paul How are you doing Chris last I talked to you we were chatting on slack and you were in Greece of all places. 00:59.12 archpodnet Yeah, so we just got back about a week ago we spent a month in Greece the the first part was actually the last week of september on a cruise for my wife's birthday. That's what prompted us to go. There was ah to do this cruise. But even that was cool from an archeological standpoint because we went up through the Adriatic and. Went to d brevnik and split in Croatia went to Mont Montenegro and then down to corfu and then back to Athens and then for the next few weeks we we spent a week on the island of naxos which was super cool. The birthplace of Zeus apparently in a cave that you're not allowed to go to and ah and then a week on crete. 01:16.75 Paul Nice. 01:35.30 archpodnet And then last week was spent in Athens doing all the the big archeology stuff in Athens like the Parthenon and the whole Acropolis I should say and and a bunch of other stuff. So if anybody's interested in hearing more about those. Go check out the archeology show which Rachel and I host and for the last like several weeks we've been talking about all of our stuff in Greece and. We took a break for work. We're recording this on October thirtieth we took a break for a Halloween episode about some interesting vampire burials or suspected vampire burials which actually is a real thing right over in eastern europe especially so yeah, people were buried in and in interesting ways because. 02:01.78 Paul 15 Yeah. 02:12.44 archpodnet People actually thought they were vampires were going to come back alive so that was an interesting show but our next one will be our final grease episode. So if you're interested in any of that. Go check it out So and I got us exactly exactly? Yeah, so um, yeah, and we ah we haven't done this show for a little while it's just been. 02:19.53 Paul And so you had a real Busman solid me while you're there. 02:32.40 archpodnet You know with Paul being gone and and us being in Greece it was just hard to get interviews scheduled and and anything else. So we just decided to take a little break and now I think we're back. We've got a couple interviews today actually and hopefully we can keep this going through the winter and and and get back on track. So speaking of which. We have an interview today. Um I'm going to pause right here giddeon how do you pronoun pronounce your last name so I might not do that right now she shelock okay Okay, shelock clo okay back to it and today we have an interview with. 02:58.52 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Sellaf Flavi I can I can trade like Sala Lavi good. 03:11.68 archpodnet Gideon Shilock Lavi and I'll have him say that because I probably got it wrong, but he's going to talk to us about a project that you know he's working on with the team and we'll hear all about it in a minute but welcome to the show Gideon yeah no problem. So why don't you. 03:22.44 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Okay, thank you very much for having me. 03:29.52 archpodnet Tell us about this and and while you're doing that if if people listening have the ability to look at the show notes make sure you're not driving or something like that then take a look at that because there's a paper in here that you may or may not have access to but there's also a website for this project called the wall and there's a lot of really great information on there that gives you some of this background that. Ah, Gide's going to talk about but Gideon tell us about the wall project. Give us a little background of where this is and and what it is. 03:53.99 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Okay, maybe maybe I'll say first of all that as usually an archaeology. This is a joint project I'm working with people not only from the Hebrew University where I am but also from Yale University from the and National University of Mongolia So it's really a big team. 04:06.98 archpodnet Um. 04:13.30 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And so this is ah first thing that's it's important to say ah second and it is a project about about walls walls that were been during the medieval period in northeachinaandinmongolia. And when we before I I start talking about the product I would say that for me, it's also a new a new topic because before that all my career I went I worked on prehistoric periods mostly in China north china bronze age beginning of the neolithic was my last. 04:42.91 Paul Um. 04:46.39 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, project in China so it's really something new for me. But but there is something if you could say pre historic about those walls or the huge array of walls something like four thousand kilometers long altogether different different routes. 04:59.49 archpodnet Well. 05:04.11 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, but not a lot have been written about them although they were constructed probably or we know that they were constructed sometimes in the medieval period. So from the eleventh to the thirteen ah century. Ah a D but and the the. 05:08.50 archpodnet Um, no. 05:22.86 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Dynasties that bid them ah did not describe their building or did not. There is not a lot of historic information so to understand them is really to to try to to do things that we do in in prehistory to to work from the archaeology from the geographies. 05:38.83 Paul Um. 05:41.95 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Some historian and tried to combine everything together and then understand why did people in the past created such a huge role. Ah what is a purpose. What is a context and I seek those are questions that actually relevant for today as well. Why do people build huge. You know border fences walls trenches. All those things. It's not always about war. There are different reasons and this is the kind of questions we we try to address I mean. 06:14.60 archpodnet Um. 06:15.49 Paul I have a question for you this you know I read the the article and also ah Chris we ought to put it in. We had to put Gideon's Academia Dot Edu page on because that's where I got access to the article. Ah. 06:20.28 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Are. 06:26.15 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 06:30.65 Paul Yeah, so everybody writing around their publishers that way. Ah, um, well we want to get the yeah information out there? Um, but ah this this set of walls that you're discussing or the the one that you're mostly focused on. 06:31.80 archpodnet We'll do if right. 06:33.27 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Um, like me. 06:46.45 Paul Ah, is distinct from the great wall the famous section that we've all seen in in a million tourist photos in what way. 06:51.63 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Um, well well it is I think part of the same phenomena that's in in China and and part of Mongolia since more than two thousand years ago people or dynasties states are building those huge long. Um. 06:56.43 archpodnet Oh. 06:58.90 Paul Um. 07:09.74 Gideon Shelach_Lavi You know, walls trenches fortifications. Whatever so this is certainly have this historic background. Ah, but this. Pacific system that was built as I said from the eleventh to the thirteenth century sometimes there and maybe in different episodes is different in in some ways. First of all, it's location. It is not located in what is more or less the division line between. Pastorism and agriculture or between the step and the agric agriculture area. It is our many parts of it is are deep inside the step so you would think okay, why are they building walls in in very remote area areas. 07:48.51 archpodnet But enough. 07:50.71 Paul Um. 07:56.41 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And ah, very sparsely populated areas. So this is one 1 issue. The other issue is that you know we we all know about chinese dynasties right? But the 2 dynasties that were probably responsible for building those walls either 1 of them or. Probably the 2 of them. You know different parts are not you know chinese dynasties per se they were dynasties that controlled parts of China but the the leaders the the elite the the emperors were ah from non-chinese origins or non han origins. Ah, one dynasty is the liao dsty which was funded by the people called hitan from from Corran Ina Mongolia and the other one is the gene dynasties that are ju chains from Manchuria from northzi china and and southern. 08:42.80 archpodnet Okay. 08:51.96 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Southern Siberia so there are you know there are people that are not chinese they adapted some chinese and institutes or or ideas. But they also kept a lot of their own. 09:03.23 Paul And. 09:06.91 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And Nomadic ah culture and tradition. So it's interesting. Why those people that have so strong inclination or so strong. Ah cultural um practice of of moving of being nomads of of ah those kind of things. Why would they build. 09:20.31 archpodnet No. 09:21.27 Paul Me. 09:25.13 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Wall to stop movement as this is a big issue. Ah yeah. 09:25.43 archpodnet Right? okay. 09:30.85 Paul Ah I have another question actually that came up, you were talking about the the relative lack of ah of historical evidence now Chinese culture Writ large is very famously of a literary culture and and um. 09:33.60 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Me. 09:47.41 Paul Is it something particular about this jiin and the ah dynasties that they didn't record as much and that's why we don't know about these walls except for archaeologically or is it something specific about the walls that you know and that the Jin and the al cultures did or dynasties rather did um, did record things but they just left this as a blind spot. You know. 10:07.76 Gideon Shelach_Lavi They did record and the the whole issue of Chinese history is very ah, complex. But but yes we have a history for the liao history for the gene in Chinese those dynasties also use their own language and maybe this is part of the issue that. Maybe part of the recordings were in their you know Hitan or Gene Language a Georgian language so it didn't Survive. It's not clear, but what is clear that for the liao for Sure. There is no mention even of of wall construction for the gene which is a later one. Ah, there is some some mention but it's not clear where what how big it was so so the information is very very scarce and part of what we do if we start you know talking about the the methodology of of of what what the project do is partly we try to analyze the historic data. 11:02.58 Gideon Shelach_Lavi As a kind of of a big database. You know, not just reading but really analyzing really taking out. Ah every ah bit of information that might be relevant. Not only about wall construction. But about you know, border contacts and hunting. Climate climate is a big issue maybe climate has to do with with the fact that they decided to to construct the wall. So so we we treat the history. You know, largely speaking. Not only the official histories but other sources as a kind of of big data and try to analyze it in. In ways that that we do today which you know all the the new technologies that are available for for data analysis. So this is ah one part. It's not maybe not the main part but it is one part of of our research you know. 11:48.24 archpodnet Um, okay, just wondering here. Paul mentioned the great wall which of course like he said we've all seen pictures of that. What is the. Character and nature of the walls that you guys are specifically studying in this study is it similar I mean the great wall is so striking because of what it is right? and and what it looks like which is probably why you see it in so many pictures but are we talking about similar things or or you know. Smaller constructions or something like that. What do they look like. 12:17.49 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Okay, yes, yes, and no, it's not like the the wall that we know from picture which is a ming wall which is the latest wall from the sixteenth even seventeenth century a d. 12:28.92 archpodnet Yeah. 12:31.60 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Is very different from everything else. It's big. It's used ah ah bricks. It's it's different but ah throughout chinese history as I said from the fifth ah century bc and dynasties and state constructed walls. Those are more modest walls. 12:51.17 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, and not ah so high and use other techniques like the stamped earth technique which is a very and ah traditional technique in of building walls in China and stones and and trench make trenches trenches are very important and this. 12:56.18 Paul Listen. 13:07.99 Gideon Shelach_Lavi This will you can say is it's part of this tradition. So It's pre predate but all other walls that I mentioned also predate a mean wall. So So it's not the same.. It's much more modest but we started our our project by analyzing satellite images. Air photo and so on and and you can see this this line on those images. So So it is visible ah partly because a lot of it is constructed in an area that was not ah disturbed by a lot of human but human activity. So. It's not an agricultural area. That's why it's really well preserved and. 13:30.35 archpodnet Um, with. 13:30.99 Paul Um. 13:44.99 Gideon Shelach_Lavi But there is a line so one 1 question we ask like you said is is yes what What actually is it. How did it did it look you know in the past. And 1 of the discoveries that we we found in the recent expedition including the one that we we just and that just ended in in this during this summer in August was that maybe there was no real wall I mean there was no standing walls. There was. Ah, trench that was dug it is maybe a four meter wide in some places. It's two metre deep and then they took the earth and pilot on the inside on the southern side but they did not construct you know a standing wall that's set's our current hypothesis on the other hand. 14:32.61 archpodnet Okay. 14:35.58 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And the other hand throughout or along this wall. There are um, enclosures are there are structures some of them very big some of them one hundred meter by one hundred meter or or even larger and those did have ah standing walls and very very massive walls. The combinations of of a trench maybe pi of earths maybe in some places a low wall and and those those camps or those fortresses or those whatever there was and this is part of the question we want to to understand or address. 15:10.68 archpodnet Okay, well with that. We'll take a break and come back on the other side and talk a little bit more about technology and how you guys were using that on this side back in a minute. 15:18.88 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Okay.