00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode two zero nine of the architect podcast and we're talking to Gideon about the wall project that he's talking about here. So let's get into the technological aspect of this so you mentioned remote sensing gis some other stuff used on this project. 00:00.67 Paul Um. 00:17.96 archpodnet Um, give us a ah quick overview of some of the technologies common or otherwise which let me let me take an aside there. That's one thing we're talking about leading up to the show is like oh well, we're not using anything really special. We're doing these things which Paul and I were like well that's awesome that that's kind of common these days that people are just using these techniques right. But we still think that even if it's not something crazy and brand new and something like that. Everybody uses a suite of technologies in slightly different ways and it's that it's that combined usage and the overall usage of things that that I find really interesting and I know Paul does as well and and exactly what kind of what you're getting out of that from an analytical standpoint. So. So before we talk about what you got out of these things. Let's talk about what you guys actually used. Besides you know shovels and trials what other types of technologies did you use on this project. 01:02.89 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Okay, so maybe I'll start by saying that this project is funded by the erc. The European research console which provide us with really nice, nice funding allow us to do a lot of the things we do. 01:13.40 archpodnet Okay. 01:20.83 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And and maybe as a background I would say that and we talked about it before the show. Ah this is ah a project that deal with with something huge you know, ah 4000 kilometerss of walls fortresses thousands of fortresses probably other things so how how do you? How do you address those kind of issues. 01:30.92 archpodnet Um. 01:41.50 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, issue that archaeologists today especially today we are used to to study very tiny tiny places you know test speed samples. Not even a whole site and suddenly you have to to address such a a huge a huge phenomena um myself I did. A lot of originalal surveys so I had this ah regional perspective but still, it's it's not something that really we we do a lot and then that's why when we started or I started thinking about this project and discuss with other people we thought okay, what kind of. Of method we can use to to address our basic question which is as I said why people build walls why they did it where they did. What is the ecological context and so on. So so the the first type of of method we use is is is our method that are are used to to. 02:21.49 archpodnet Mm. 02:32.93 Gideon Shelach_Lavi In order to maps this this this whole thing. It's a huge thing. How do you map this There is no ah detailed map of those those walls they they appear in different atlases but very very rude, kind of descriptions so we really used a lot of of remote senensing like this said satellite images. 02:45.54 archpodnet Um. 02:52.40 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, Corona images I don't know if you are familiar with is um and on brown Surveys with drones with air photos ah different kinds of of raiders. You know some places The the wall is is beneath the sand or we want to to to to locate it. You use different kind of. 02:52.31 Paul E. 03:10.21 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Of ah radar apparatusees that are today available also on that even and you know test a specific location. We want to photo to to to have and satellite images you can do it and it's not even very expensive today that we are. We didn't have good good images that we wanted. So this is is ah one part of of our analysis. Another part is on ground and geophysics and and attempts to to really ah before excavating trying to see what's what's below ground to to get some ideas because. You know? Ah, we have limited time that we are in the field we go for one month ah we stay away. it's it's expensive you have to to be really careful where you excavate so we use and there is a team for University Of Pittsburgh who twice came and tried to map it with. 03:49.45 archpodnet Right. 03:56.72 archpodnet No. 04:04.22 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Agno matterto swize a Gpr ground pun ratherd those kind of things and I can talk about it more if if you want and then of course there are different ah dating methods dating is very important but you don't always have a good um, um. 04:11.40 archpodnet No. 04:18.52 Paul Um. 04:22.14 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Samples for and ah carbon 14 which is you know the usualile method. So we also use ol which is a ah way to date. Um, geological sample date a soil. So so we do that and and in other techniques like that. 04:34.58 archpodnet Um, right. 04:40.10 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Also ah you know in attempt to understand what? what's the structure that are associated with a world where what? what were they useful we have for example, very big circles. You know huge circles like the. 04:55.40 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Under the fifty meter in diameter. Why did they construct them. It looked like ah kind of an area and kind of of of ah structures. So um, one of the doctoral students. You know, a lot of the work is done by doctoral student one of my doctors student took ah sample soil samples from. Very very systematically for one of those circles and we are trying to find out. There is some kind of organic residue or or evidence for that it it was used as ah as a corrals for animals or other kind of so so chemical analysis. The same is true for. 05:23.78 archpodnet Okay. 05:24.65 Paul A. 05:30.72 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, for analyzing poure residue analysis to see what people were 8 were eating what what was the activity that was done so we do a lot of chemical analysis for for a podit for others we we just discovered in the last summer in the excavation. Ah. Ah, a basket made of of ah birch. Ah so try to understand you know they have you know it's a basket. It's not usual to find what it was used for why why it was it was there. So so a lot of those kind of analysis that I guess are also quite common today. But but we have to to combine all those. 05:50.63 archpodnet Um, no. 05:58.49 Paul Um, listen. 06:07.62 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, lines of evidence and then as you as you mentioned you know, understanding the geographical context why this is very important for walls. You know why they they selected to to build the wall to to dig the trench. In this place and not another so ah, different types of of geographical analysis. Yeah gis and I can talk more about about those those kinds of of analysis. 06:31.46 Paul Ah I have a quick question for you then? Um, since you brought up radiocarbon dating. Um, how confident are you of the contemporaneity of the different things you're analyzing here, especially between that wall or the segments of the wall and and the large rectangular buildings and these. 06:31.83 archpodnet Okay. 06:48.86 Paul Very large circular enclosures. 06:52.69 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, you know for most of them I am quite quite confident that they are from the same time you can see that there is a It's a systematic effort. You know you see that all there. 07:01.52 Paul Um, easy. 07:03.71 archpodnet Um. 07:04.15 Gideon Shelach_Lavi The the enclosure for example is the northern line that we we studied most and this is the article you you referred to ah you have every thirty kilometers or twenty thirty kilometter you have a cluster of structures the structures all look more or less say you can see that there is a system here and it's consistent. So I think that that. 07:22.45 Paul Um. 07:22.84 Gideon Shelach_Lavi The association between the wall and structure or most of the structure. There are some that maybe are not but most of them is is is not a big problem. The problem of dating is that when you are talking when you're talking about historic periods. It's not like for history that you know 100 year here and there. Ah, will not affect your analysis here. Every fifty years can can really can really matter can really make a difference. So how do you come up with with dates that are are so accurate that they are on the verge of the of the you know the average of the system and that's why why you have to to. 07:44.20 Paul Right. 08:00.78 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Think about it very carefully. What what you date and how you you understand the dating that you get. 08:07.51 archpodnet From a mapping standpoint. You know you mentioned in the beginning that the the mapping you know these things weren't very well mapped altogether right? So coming up with a comprehensive map of of all the walls or as much as you can would be a good idea where are you guys at in this process I'm curious. How many field seasons have you done how many more do you think you have to go. As far as getting this ah this whole project map because it sounds like a massive effort. 08:31.89 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Yeah, so so so we are not planning on on visiting all the location most of the mapping is done. We started with the existing data so we started with ah big atlases. But you know maps of. 08:44.88 archpodnet M. 08:45.29 Gideon Shelach_Lavi 1 by by by two Thousand kilometers or something that's very very large scale and then try to find those lines on the existing satellite images which is not always easy because here again, you can have arrows in the range of one hundred kilometers so you know. 09:03.19 archpodnet Right. 09:04.48 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Our graduate student was sitting sitting on those images and trying to locate and follow the different lines and and finding new lines and and all these and this effort is is almost ah finished. We are now working on ah on one segment that is in the a gobi desert. So further to the west and south of what we worked until today and we are not sure that this segment is actually part of the wall that we are studying or something else. So we we are mapping it and ah coming may we will visit a part of it and try to to understand if it's. Actually connected or not connected to to the system we are studying. So so that's that's how we work we we do the mapping we use all the different sources. Ah try to be as accurate as we can mapping not only the the line of the wall and trench. But also. Ah, the structure that are ah are associated with it and then select some points and visit them and study them do a survey do test excavation activations and then we go to the next phase and and do another. And more maybe detailed excavations and selected sites. So it's a kind of 3 3 stage system of of field work I imagine we will do it for the next. 10:12.29 archpodnet Okay. 10:24.46 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, but the coming 3 years that's more or less the budget that I have now and then then we'd see. We'd see how much we can get. 10:33.36 Paul I'm curious looking at the map. We're talking north of of beijing and these wall segments cross Mongolia part of Russia and China are is are you able to cross those borders in the study or is all your work being focused in Mongolia. 10:47.47 Gideon Shelach_Lavi So far. Yes, so far we only did fieldwork in Mongolia and you know my previous and work. My previous experience is mostly in China so i. 10:49.28 Paul The actual physical on the groundwork. 11:01.70 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Very good connections in China and I hope to go back and and study some of the segment or most of the segments are actually in China and they are very interesting and some of them are quite different from what we studied so far so I do hope to to visit to do some work in China in cooperation of course with a chinese archaeologist. 11:03.99 Paul Um. 11:21.60 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And I I already started negotiating this and the part that the small part in Russia I don't think I will go there but but aside for that you know we it's it's China and Mongolia and we we do work in in both places. 11:24.94 Paul Um. 11:38.83 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And but again you cannot You cannot do everything you have to to develop a strategy and this is part of the the idea of how to work on such big Phenomena ah a strategy how to sample how to map how to to get the information you need from the limited amount of time you have. And it's always limited. 11:58.42 archpodnet Right? Okay, well our time is limited here too. So let's take a break and then we'll wrap up this discussion on the other side back in a minute.