00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back for the final segment of the archeech podcast episode two zero nine here with ah Gideon talking about the wall project in well China Mongolia and I had a question you mentioned osl dating and I know people have used that when you like you know turn over a rock or something like that. That's been sitting for. Hundreds if not thousands of years and and hasn't moved since then you can do some dating techniques based on that which made me think you know these walls are I mean prominent. They're hard to miss right? So people living after wall construction even 100 years couple hundred years later or anytime later is there any evidence that these. Like some of the construction of the walls were repurposed or maybe added to and then you know can you see that in the construction through some of your excavations or just other analysis. You know trying to understand the different phases of building or or deconstruction. You know what? I mean. 00:54.26 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Yes, so we do have ah ah 2 very interesting examples so far of people and using the not the wall but the the enclosures the structures as a kind of burial ground. 01:06.58 archpodnet Oh. 01:08.19 Gideon Shelach_Lavi So this is a prominent feature in the landscape. This is a very flat landscape you you see it from far away and they were digging a graves into into those structures that we have now actually were just in the process of finishing a paper on one of those graves which is not a big grave but it has a lot of findings including. Ah, fabric silk wood organic materials and of course bronze gold everything you want glass. So so it's really interesting. Kind of a microrocosmos you can from 1 1 brave and make different analysis seeing where those artifacts are coming from. But yes, so people were were reacting to those things because they are very prominent in the landscape and this is the landscape where you don't have a lot of of those kind of things you know and not a lot of ancient constructions. Um, so yes, but but still I think osl is useful. The problem with Osl is it's it's not that. 01:57.70 archpodnet Right. 02:07.95 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Accurate or the error range are very very big for or the kind of question we're asking still it is a way to date. Ah the the walls the date the the trenches the ditches. Ah you know when when they were field and so on and give us some some indication and also I didn't talk. 02:10.75 archpodnet Um. 02:11.32 Paul Um, either. 02:19.21 archpodnet Sure. 02:27.92 Gideon Shelach_Lavi About the the ecological aspect of this project but you also have an ecological leg. We Ah want to understand if there was some ecological conditions that that are part of the reason why people constructed those walls so we can get a lot of evidence from the Earth we take from the from The. Ah, from the ditches and dates them and see different changes in the Pollland changes in the things that were accumulated in the ditch and also we do some and coreing in lakes nearby legs to understand the specific ah period of of Construction. So This is another whole issue that we didn't discuss. 03:04.57 archpodnet Um, yeah, absolutely and you know just to to point out because our our I'm sure our audience knows this but you know even if the Osl dating has got some wide error bars on it. 03:06.73 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Yeah. 03:18.14 archpodnet In conjunction with other things. It's the whole suite of things that you're talking about here. You know that everything adds a little bit bigger. A little bit of a piece to the puzzle. You know what I mean So if that was the only dating method you were using. We'd have some questions but it's not and it's just one piece of the big puzzle. 03:32.74 Paul Um. 03:34.61 archpodnet And I love that right? So even though you know that hey you know maybe this isn't going to be very accurate but it's going to be something we do because it'll still tell us some information right? I mean yeah. 03:42.65 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And and also of course of course you always and this is something that I think people understand now you cannot fill out on 1 date even if it's a most accurate you have to take a lot of dates you have to do stat statistics you have to see you know what? what are the problems. 03:50.90 archpodnet Sure right. 03:58.48 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, so so taking many dates and and factoring in other factors we have ah coins for examples. We have ah shirts that sometime we can date especially porcelain chinese porcelain can be ah, quite awkwarddated by the Pat. So so all of it together you you're correct is can give us. 04:12.86 Paul Um. 04:17.78 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, maybe more accurate and complete picture of what's going on. 04:20.39 archpodnet Right. 04:24.96 Paul So um, maybe we should pivot now because you've told us a lot about how you're doing your work and where you're doing your work and what you're studying um and. 04:29.83 archpodnet Are. 04:32.65 Paul What what have you learned so far. What have you ah revealed in terms of where and why and how these walls were and were constructed. 04:40.69 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Yeah, so so one one of the main issues is is actually why and is it or maybe I'll I'll frame it. Ah differently is this war all about war was it a kind of you know a line of defense against monngolian invasions or invasion. Ah, from from the nose or did it meant to do other things and and 1 way to to think about it is and to to think about idealized way of how people construct. Ah border defense. For example, if you you think about border defense you think about the walls that is as meant to to be in a position where it's difficult to cross it and also the fortresses that accompanied it should be on higher ground. You know, looking over the the fence and. 05:26.56 archpodnet Um. 05:33.71 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Places where it's easy to defend places where you can see the enemy coming from far away right through those kind of of assumptions and we try to check it systematically not only looking at 1 example but really look at. For example, that's what we did for the northern line that we studied where are those. Ah, enclosure positioned other positioned on higher higher points are there. You know the ideal point for for sting enemy coming and the the surprising maybe result was that no they are in the most ah un. Orthodox or or not unrelated to defense location. Very low places near the near the streams. It's places where you cannot ah seize the wall very well. The last point where we we worked actually this year which is not in the northern line but in the ah one of the south most southern lines. 06:15.50 Paul Um. 06:28.35 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, we excavated in ah in 1 structure like this and the structure is like maybe three hundred meter away from the wall but you cannot see the wall from the structure because it is on on a slope that is you know away from the wall and there is a kind of small hill between them. So this is not a place where people will. Position there ah defensive fortresses and so on and that's make us ah try to to think of of different types of explanation and 1 explanation is of course a movement where do people people people move in the landscape not armies armies. Of course we move. You know everywhere and we'd try to surprise you and we' try to come in in in unexpected operation. But people think about herder. Ah, you know, ah pastoral nomadic people where would they move and and we think that if we analyze the movement movement patterns and you can do those as things with yeah gis. 07:09.60 archpodnet On the. 07:26.64 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Ah, analyze the movement patterns of people. Those structures are located where people would cross cross the the line cross the the ditch line across the the wall line and so maybe there are more that the whole system is more about controlling the movement of people in but also maybe out. 07:35.34 Paul Um. 07:44.92 Gideon Shelach_Lavi You know, a lot of those Dynasty did not want their people to go out to join. Let's say the the nomadic on the more nomadic people outside of the wall. So so controlling maybe texting ah things like that I become become more important when you start to to look at the big big partance. 07:56.50 archpodnet Nice. 08:03.72 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Where where are the where is the wall located where are the structures located how they are related to to roads even corn throats because the the landscape and the movement type of movie didn't change much people are still riding horses in those places so you can you can follow those things but. 08:18.75 Paul Um. 08:23.66 Gideon Shelach_Lavi I Think as long as you do it on a large scale in a systematic way and so on another another method we use in with yeah Gis is is to look at a view shared analysis. So what would you see from each structure. What what? where are you looking? What? obviously. 08:37.86 archpodnet No, right. 08:41.46 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Know ah the the landscape you can view and again it's not a parton that is very useful for ah for defending borderline but maybe more for control movement maybe associating with water sources. You know with wealth with springs. 08:54.80 Paul Um. 08:59.30 Gideon Shelach_Lavi And so on so so trying to think about those those issues ah of Sco bring bring more questions. So okay, what did they people do the people that like lived in their in old structure. How did they survive were they pastoralist or were they trying to do agriculture so those kind of of new questions that you can address with other. Other types of methods. 09:21.17 Paul That's interesting. So correct me if I've misinterpreted this but it sounds like you're arguing that it's not for defensive purposes where you'd stop somebody from coming through. It's for regulatory purposes where you're controlling how many and at what times and how quickly. 09:23.60 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Are. 09:37.71 Paul Ah, these nomadic populations go one way or the other. 09:39.50 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Yeah I don't want to sound too too deterministic or too strong. You know, maybe part of it was in order at least to to to control and against invasions and so on, but but it seems to me that most of it was ah trying to. 09:47.41 Paul Um. 09:58.40 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Yes, control and know who's who is coming who is moving around and maybe stop but not stop armies. It's not It's not a wall you know, even if you think about the wall as ah as a trench. Let's say four meter wide and two meter deep and some. Some additional wall or or or aspi this is not something that you know the ah jiingkiz khan in his army would not cross very quickly. So so it's not it would not stop them. Ah, but but if you want to to stop like movement ah to midar. 10:23.90 archpodnet All right. 10:25.62 Paul Um, fifty. Yeah. 10:32.36 Gideon Shelach_Lavi This is where climate come to the to the picture. It is a period probably with a lot of climatic anomalies. Especially very cold cold ah season cold spells. So maybe there was a push for people to move from the nose. 10:42.90 archpodnet And. 10:48.73 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Southward and the Dynasty did not want all those refugees. Let's say entering or at least wanted to control them and maybe want to make some profit out of those people coming with their herds and so so I think we have to think about it in this way and of course again it's. Very relevant to think that we see today in the world. You know people a lot of their walls. You know built you know Trump wall and so on are not against armies. You know Mexican Army will not invade the us I think but it it is meant to to control the movement of of people and and I think this is. 11:17.46 Paul Um. 11:23.45 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Mainly what we see in the in the war system but we are still you know studying. So it's not a conclusive answer I would say. 11:32.19 archpodnet Right? You know question I was thinking about because the the first thing I think of with walls especially of this type not necessarily like the great wall the big fortifications but you know the the smaller ones like the ones that we're talking about here. You know I've done a lot of work in Nevada in the United States and 11:42.75 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Um, if. 11:49.91 archpodnet We've done a lot of reading and and other places in the in the world too and a lot of times walls like that are used for property lines you know, just just marking So The edge of somebody's territory or something like that I guess even farmers or something you know are not really farmers but people with herds and and things like that and just marking lines. Is there any cultural historical evidence that they would have done that at these time frames. Yeah. 12:14.84 Gideon Shelach_Lavi I don't think so you know first of all those are again the other the step area you don't see any structures. Ah you know historic prestoic structure. There are few like burial other type of these type of monuments. But you don't see buildings. You don't see. Ah, many are some cities but but very various shoes. so so I don't think this is property line per se but it is and it is a state level. Ah Dynasty level ah kind of of project. So so it is it is not. Ah, you know on the local level. It is planned from from from above somewhere and it's it's still a lot of work to do those kind of things and to bring all those people to the step deep into the step you know feeds them and so on so it's a lot of work. Ah, but but even if it's a lot of work. It doesn't mean that it's only. 12:52.90 archpodnet Right. 13:07.57 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Only about about war and 1 interesting thing that you mention you know examples from from around the world when I started doing this project and started reading about walls and especially about trenches I found out that there are a lot of other types for examples not only in China mongolia and their very famous walls. 13:25.46 archpodnet Um. 13:26.40 Gideon Shelach_Lavi But also in central asia you know in Iran sasanian wars there are in in Britain you know the the ophadis all kind of all those kind of things not only the the Roman limits which is also you know a question whether it was used only for war or also for those kind of things that I was talking about. So. 13:33.35 archpodnet Sure. 13:45.39 Gideon Shelach_Lavi So looking at ah a you know global perspective is also something ah very interesting for me as and as I said also you know comparing to to modern examples. Maybe we can get some ideas and and check them on the archaeological record. 13:56.80 Paul Um. 13:58.90 archpodnet Indeed all right? Well we are just about out of time here so getting I'm just wondering what's next for you guys on this project where you going from here. 14:07.54 Gideon Shelach_Lavi So as I said we will work on a line in in the in the Gobi desert south of where we were and and try to to understand if it is connected or not. We want to go back to some of the places who already visited and and excavate more detail. 14:14.99 archpodnet Yeah. 14:27.26 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Especially inside the the structure and try to understand better how they were used and so on as I said I want to go ah to China and work on some of the lines there with ah chinese colleagues and my my. Idea for the next project is actually to look at at the cities that exist on the step there are cities in the step and some of them may be connected to this line. So so this is really maybe the the next project time I mean I was thinking about. 14:55.59 archpodnet Okay, fascinating. Well we'll have to have you back on later on then when you've got more more to say about this so all right? Well thank you so much for coming on and like I said anytime you guys want to come back on. Please do so and we've got. 15:05.10 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Um. 15:13.74 archpodnet Another interview Paul and I are doing right after this so a lot of good stuff coming up for the arche architect podcast for our audience so stick around and ah and stay with us for the rest of the the winter and fall anyway, so thanks, a lot see you guys next time. 15:24.40 Paul Thank you Gidian that was very fascinating. 15:27.72 Gideon Shelach_Lavi Thank you very much. 15:30.57 archpodnet All right.