00:00.27 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone Paul how's it going. 00:04.61 Paul It's going pretty good. Um, you know it's so what 2 hours since I talked to you last i. 00:04.73 Keith Kintigh Oh. 00:08.50 archpodnet Exactly yeah, we're we're doing something unusual at this time is what we have 2 interviews in the same day. Yeah. 00:17.33 Paul I take it. You're still more or less in the same place. Your nomadic Lifestyle hasn't taken you some place. Ah totally ah, dramatically different than before. No you didn't ah. 00:24.50 archpodnet Ah, no I didn't know if I mentioned where I was last time we're in Las Vegas right now but rving event. So yeah is our first day we got here yesterday. Um, our ebikes were stolen this morning off the back of our rv. 00:33.46 Paul I. 00:36.74 archpodnet So we're dealing with that but that just means it's time for new ebikes really so um, otherwise yeah Las Vegas is great. So um, right right? Yeah, exactly exactly. 00:42.42 Keith Kintigh Oh. 00:46.19 Paul I'm sure you're not figuring out all sorts of ah ways to spend money on your Rv now that you're at this ah at the show right? You figure out great ways to save money. 00:54.89 Keith Kintigh Um. 00:56.48 archpodnet So all right? Well let's get into our show. So our guest today we mentioned in the introduction was actually on the show for episode 92 about five years ago and we'll link to that in the show notes if you want to go listen to that episode. But and when we talked about. 01:11.27 Keith Kintigh Um. 01:12.34 archpodnet Ah, different things back then so again, go ahead and go listen to that we're going to talk about some of the same things but we're just going to get a little more into it. So Dr Keith Kinag welcome to the show all right? So we're going to talk tr you were part of the development effort of tr when it first started back in. 01:20.68 Keith Kintigh Um, thank you Glad to be here. Um. 01:32.64 archpodnet What was that Ninety Ninety Nine I think I read somewhere. Um, why don't you just tell us the impetus behind that how were you involved specifically you know what? what? what brought you into the development of tdar and why. 01:43.16 Keith Kintigh Um, what got it started. What got us started I was at a professor at arizon state university we had a bunch of archeologists. Ah, and we got along and ah, Chuck Redman our chair sort of suggested. Maybe we should just get together as faculty and talk every once in a while well that led to a process where we started meeting either every month or every other week and that went on for about I think 20 years um so we had a really good group and one of the things that we started working on is well each of us was used to working on our own projects in our own areas and time periods. We said wouldn't it be interesting if we sort of started to think about comparing our cases. Well that. 02:35.30 archpodnet Yes. 02:38.78 Keith Kintigh As soon as we started to do that even though most of us were working in the southwest us we still had datasets who were organized in a different way use different variable names different coding schemes and even though it would seem that that might not be so difficult to integrate it turns out that. You know with formal databases that really was a challenge about that same time in Ninety Ninety Nine ah The National Science Foundation had a program announcement for social behavior social behavioral and economic research. 02:59.65 archpodnet Okay. 03:16.75 Keith Kintigh Infrastructure and we thought well we'll try for that. And basically we put together a proposal to say to really look at this problem of data integration for purposes of research so we wanted to be able to compare cases that were ah. Done doing different coding schemes because what we wanted to do is integrate data in a way that people hadn't done it so much using the raw data so in a lot of times synthesis and archeology involves somebody sitting down and reading all these stuff or mostly reading. Everybody else's conclusions and then going from there but sometimes those conclusions are based on aren't aren't correct when you go back and look at the data I mean a good example of this is ah some of the early dating early tree ring dating of sites in the southwest before people really develop the methodology that. 03:53.85 archpodnet Oh. 04:03.13 Paul Um. 04:12.27 Keith Kintigh The dates were correct but how you interpret those dates changed So Amil Howry's dating of a late prehistoric site that turned out to be pretty important. It turned out what he concluded the date of the occupation was was really. I'm sure at the end of his life. He would not have said the same thing because people had developed better interpretations of how you know some of these cheuring dates are cutting dates that are way too early because people are reusing beams and so Forth. So Anyway, we wanted to be able to do our data integration based on. 04:30.66 archpodnet Yeah. 04:46.79 Keith Kintigh The primary data that we're collecting not just other people's conclusions so we got together with some computer scientists at Asu and put in a proposal. Um, we came pretty close. We were 4 They funded 3 projects and we were number 4 04:51.00 Paul Um. 05:05.44 Keith Kintigh Ah, but that didn't get funded but in in 2004 we were funded by the national science foundation with a sort of planning grant and that led to a conference at the national center for ecological analysis and synthesis in Santa Barbara where we had. 05:21.96 Keith Kintigh Oh Geez um 31 different participants mainly archaeologists but also people from computer science and information science to get together and the the conference was entitled the promise and challenge of archaeological data integration. So We're really trying to sort of address this problem research Problem. Of Synthesis or data integration and how do we do that and so that was in 2004 and 2006 that was published in American antiquity in an article with the same name and we are argued in that article. 05:44.42 archpodnet Okay. 05:57.49 Keith Kintigh For the development of a national archeological information infrastructure. Ah, which eventually was tdar. Um and just of a sentence from the abstract of that concept oriented. 06:01.59 archpodnet Ah. 06:10.94 Keith Kintigh Archaeological data integration will enable the use of existing data to answer compelling new questions and permit syntheses of archaeological data that rely not on others investigators' conclusions but on analyses of meaningfully integrated new and legacy datasets. So we're really trying to sort of work on this problem of synthesis and data integration. Ah that planning grant had little sort of pilot funding and then in 2006 we got three quarters of million dollars from The National Science Science Foundation to really start. 06:30.39 archpodnet Okay. 06:44.29 archpodnet Ah. 06:45.32 Keith Kintigh A serious implementation of this. Ah, right? at this you know within a month of of getting that. Um I got a I I think it was an email or maybe a phone call from ah the Mellon Foundation saying basically would you like to come to New York we might want to give you some money? Um, so it at arcs at at their own expense. So I thought well that's that's that's pretty good. Ah. 07:10.35 archpodnet Um, yeah. 07:12.85 Paul Ah, don't fall for that. Ah. 07:19.72 archpodnet Ah, right. 07:20.94 Keith Kintigh And they had independently I mean they had a program called Scholarly Communications and that I think it's the same program had funded jstor of the sort of pilot thinks of jstor so they're really interested in this issue of preserving knowledge that being generated and. 07:28.52 archpodnet Okay. 07:30.67 Paul Um. 07:36.19 archpodnet Oh. 07:39.23 Keith Kintigh At some point they got an interest they sort of saw they had funded a bunch of different kinds of archeology things in the past. Ah and they got interested in a more general solution to trying to deal with the data problems or the data loss really in archeology. So at the same time they gave us. Ah, another planning grant and a and that was followed by three and a half million dollars of of funding from them. Their goal was a little bit different I mean they were happy with the research component but they were really interested. In the problem of just preserving all this data that's getting generated and being lost due to media degradation the computers crashing to crm firms going out of business and. You know what happens to the computers. Well nothing and then these datasets that have costs in many cases millions of dollars to produce are completely lost so they were more interested in the sort of sustainability issue of the data and making it available for scholars to advance. 08:43.28 archpodnet Oh. 08:54.79 Keith Kintigh Knowledge. Well those 2 things fit together pretty well so we were really sort of proceeded with an integrated concept of doing data integration in the context of this national infrastructure that would collect and preserve data. Um, our original. Sort of focus was on databases and sort of formal coded datasets but we expanded that to include documents and images and 2 and 3 D images and so forth as we develop Tdr. 09:26.97 archpodnet Oh. 09:28.90 Paul Um. 09:30.62 Keith Kintigh To really sort of have a more comprehensive way of just capturing all of the data from archaeological projects. So that's what led to the sort of initial development of tdar was those sort of 2 projects joining together as a collaboration between archaeologists at Asu. And computer scientists there as well. Are. 09:49.86 archpodnet Okay, all right? And yeah, we've we've talked to I think several people about t r on this show so people should be relatively familiar with it. But what's your involvement with tdar today. 09:58.95 Paul Um. 10:03.91 Keith Kintigh Um, today I'm on the board of directors. Um t r has an executive director Chris Nicholson who manages the staff including the programmers and the data curators that make the the sort of institutional infrastructure of tdar ttar is. 10:10.24 archpodnet Um. 10:22.36 Keith Kintigh Housed within a Arizona State University Center so it's the center for digital antiquity. We set up tdar quite intentionally though we didn't want it to be an asu thing as opposed to a Arizona University Of Arizona thing or a university of Michigan thing or whatever we wanted it to be a national. Institution and so the board of directors was selected and continues to be selected nationally and internationally in fact, so I've served on the board of directors since since the very beginning of Tdr and the board is a pretty active and really a great group that's provided a lot of um, intellectual support. 10:48.18 archpodnet So. 11:01.34 Keith Kintigh For tdar. Ah good. 11:03.44 archpodnet Yeah Chris Nicholson was actually on episode one fifty seven of this podcast talking about tr so we'll link to that as well. We're going to also change the name to the t r podcast. So from this point on ah now um, that's right, that's right? So I'm curious. 11:12.68 Paul All tdar all the time. 11:16.20 Keith Kintigh If only. 11:19.59 archpodnet I'm curious too. You know this is this is at the University Of Arizona um I'm in cultural resource arizona say it started but that no oh wow, it's a big that's a big error right? there I might have to cut that out. But um, so yeah I'm in cultural resource management archeology so is Paul. 11:25.11 Keith Kintigh Arizona state. 11:29.00 Paul Um, yeah, whoops don't. 11:37.44 Keith Kintigh Are. 11:38.44 archpodnet And you know tdar isn't really I should say talked about too much in in corm circles at least up in like Nevada California some of the places that I've worked before and probably because of the data sets and who owns them to be honest with you and and what goes on there if it's a private project I'm not even sure you're allowed to. Put it in some sort of resource like that. But I'm wondering primarily today and we'll we'll get on to those other uses in a minute here but primarily today what is your sense of who's using tdar. Um, as far as institutions or you know how they're affiliated things like that. 12:03.73 Keith Kintigh Oh. 12:10.91 Keith Kintigh Um. 12:15.46 Keith Kintigh Um, over the last several years. Our biggest client has actually been ah the United States air force so they've been in at the in the air force. Ah, there's often only 1 archeologist who's assigned to. 12:21.78 archpodnet Oh well. 12:33.11 Keith Kintigh Several different bases and then just due to the way things are structured those people change and so what? what? The the air force was finding and their various crm contractors were finding is you know every time there's a change in personnel ah on the air force side. Everybody was scuring around asking for new copies of reports trying to figure out what was going on and so they have invested in basically taking a lot of their legacy, especially reports and putting them in tdr so they can be found and used sort of. By them and other people across across the bases. Um, so in the crm world. Um, we should talk about the issue of Dana ownership and so forth. But I think what one of the things the Mellon Foundation really focused on which was quite important is how do you sustain this. 13:10.53 archpodnet Yeah. 13:16.53 archpodnet Right. 13:27.23 Keith Kintigh Ah, infrastructure who's going to pay for this in the long run and our original model was that the federal agencies when there's an undertaking, The federal agencies have some responsibilities and just like they have responsibilities to curate. 13:30.79 archpodnet Um. 13:47.19 Keith Kintigh Data and their federal regulations. But um to curateate artifacts and there is a whole code of federal regulations about the curation of artifacts they have responsibilities. Ah that are now very clearly laid out in law and in regulation both in the National Star preservation act the archeological resources protection act. 13:48.87 archpodnet Yeah. 14:06.96 Keith Kintigh And then there's some some new legislation that's made it even more explicit. The federal agencies have responsibility to preserve the data that are coming out of archaeological investigations and to make it available to the extent that that's appropriate to whoever's interested. So We anticipated incorrectly as it turns out that federal agencies would jump at the chance to have a solution to really ways of maintaining these data. Um, that's happened sporanically one of our early supporters was an archaeologist with the bureau of reclamation in the phoenix. 14:35.89 archpodnet Okay. 14:45.65 Keith Kintigh Area office where they were doing millions of dollars of work and really were committed to really the the goals of the national historic preservation act which is you know if the federal government's going to break things we ought to have some opportunity to preserve the information that's coming out of it I mean after all that is the whole logic of. 15:00.84 archpodnet Friend. 15:04.93 Keith Kintigh The whole cultural heritage infrastructure in the Us is to try to preserve the information that's being lost due to actions in which the federal government has or state governments in some cases have a hand So um, basically we were and we're still trying to sort of. 15:18.11 archpodnet Brett. 15:24.61 Keith Kintigh Make that happen to be to allow Tdr to become the place that people can both find things and preserve things can deposit and preserve things for the benefit of. 15:40.29 archpodnet Right? Okay, well that is a good introduction into t r again for those who haven't heard it before so let's take a break and we'll come back and continue this discussion with Dr Keith Kenag on the other side back in a minute. 15:40.76 Keith Kintigh Other archaeologists and for the general public to the extent that they're interested. Um. 15:53.56 Keith Kintigh Are.