00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the arche tech podcast and we are wrapping up this discussion on tr and you know digital preservation methods so to speak in general with Dr Keith Kinte and a couple segments ago in the segment one and we didn't get to it last time. We were talking about this subject of data ownership and how you know that is a problem with cm of course you know private companies paying for cultural resources to get done not on federal land or on a place where that report doesn't get stored with say the Blm or the you know the Army Corps or something like that. What. 00:16.87 Keith Kintigh How. 00:34.84 Keith Kintigh Um. 00:36.25 archpodnet What kind of discussions have you guys had around that with the storage of potentially that kind of data and access to it and things around that nature. 00:45.20 Keith Kintigh Um, I think there's sort of 2 parts to that. The um 1 thing t r does that's essential force for cr m data is it has 2 different kinds of data sets all the all the metadata is public but the data set. 00:59.20 archpodnet Um, okay. 00:59.33 Keith Kintigh And either be confidential or public and confidentially basically in the U s Ah, there's some categories particularly site locations that are are protected under federal law. They're protected from foia requests and things like that and. 01:13.95 archpodnet Ah. 01:17.83 Paul Um. 01:18.45 Keith Kintigh There's no way that most agencies are going to allow any data to go in as public that have site locations and that sort of thing. So What we've encouraged people to do with reports is to try to segregate the parts of reports. Often. There could be an appendix. That's a technical appendix that has a site locations or maybe just a table of site locations or other confidential information and then put the body of the report that doesn't contain any confidential information in so you can have ah the other way to deal with it is to have a. 01:43.48 archpodnet Yeah. 01:50.68 Keith Kintigh Confidential report and then a redacted report where with acrobat you go through and you and you redact the confidential information and and ideally people would be putting in where there is confidential information. They'd be putting in both a confidential report where the agency's doing the depositing or the individual or. 01:55.21 Paul Um. 02:09.85 Keith Kintigh Company doing the depositing controls the access that is if somebody wants they somebody else may find the metadata ah write in tdar. You can generate a quest to the data owner saying you know I would like to get access to this and here's who I am and here's why and then the owner can decide. 02:14.14 archpodnet Ah. 02:27.15 Keith Kintigh And then go on tdar and either give them permission or or just let it go. Um, so that that sort of part of it is covered. Um, what we haven't sort of dealt with and I think it really just needs to be dealt with by the federal agencies is is this sort of idea that. Contractors or the contractors. Um, the contractor's Client. You know some private client land developer or whatever they so somehow own the data because they've paid for it. I mean my view is that they've paid to extent that it's something that is done subject to. 02:51.21 archpodnet Um. 03:04.62 Keith Kintigh Ah, federal law regulation or a state law or regulation um the whole purpose of the the federal regulation is to get that to preserve that information and if it's not preserved in a way that can be used by the parties. Ah you know by responsible parties. Um, there's no point in doing it. So I I think there just needs to be in my view some clarity from the federal agencies that no to the contractors. No, you can't you know part of you don't you don't own the data your your client does not on the data the federal government if anybody owns it. 03:24.33 archpodnet Ah. 03:36.20 Paul Um, then. 03:41.81 Keith Kintigh It's ah it's a public resource because it was generated with public money. Um or was generated due to a public interest as expressed through Arpa or an hpa or whatever. Um. 03:44.64 archpodnet Okay. 03:55.00 Paul Um. 03:55.71 archpodnet Okay, so I'm wondering as we're in this last segment here what you would like the future of T R to B right? I mean I think we all know where we'd want it to go but I think from a realistic standpoint in the in the near term but then in the in the far future. 04:03.99 Keith Kintigh Um. 04:11.18 Keith Kintigh Um. 04:15.11 archpodnet What would you like to see tidar become. 04:17.17 Keith Kintigh Well first I'd like to see it become the the place where people deposit data whether it's from an academic project or a crm project and I think the root to that is for 1 way or the other agencies just like they require the curation of of artifactual. 04:25.11 archpodnet Um. 04:36.75 Keith Kintigh Materials to require that the curation of digital materials in a responsible digital repository that can make them findable and accessible and preserve them in the long term. So I think. 04:44.29 archpodnet Um. 04:55.90 Keith Kintigh The only the way to do that is is for agencies to to one way or another require that and pay for it either. You know directly from the individual contracts or through some sort of subscription. But in some way in a broader ah sense My goal is that Also that. 05:01.70 archpodnet Brett. 05:13.41 Keith Kintigh Titer would be used a lot that people would use it to do the kinds of synthesis of data that isn't really covered by our model of cultural heritage in the us that is you know we the whole model in the US is the sort of polluter pays model where if somebody's going to you know. 05:26.30 archpodnet Ah. 05:32.98 Keith Kintigh Whether it's build a cell tower or build a highway you know whoever's doing the damage needs to pay for the mitigation but that is done on a sort of project by project or often site by site basis but nobody's paying for sort of putting all this together you know and so we get a lot of comments about. Yeah yeah, you know how many more. 05:42.94 Paul Are. 05:46.91 archpodnet Right. 05:52.45 Keith Kintigh You know burned Rock mintens. Do we need to see or how many more bedhouses or whatever it is um and without some way of of synthesizing that data. Um, we need to really? Ah, what's what's the point and so the synthesis What we're trying to do is enable that synthesis. 05:55.66 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 06:09.47 Keith Kintigh We've got some really powerful data integration tools that will allow you to take and our our biggest success there has been with Faun data where you can have an input an ontology of funnel data categories. Whether it's species or. Ah, different kinds of damage to the bones or element. Whatever we got a group of people together internationally to develop a set of onlogies for the variables that final analysts typically use any individual data set can then be mapped into that ontology at a. 06:39.81 archpodnet Ah. 06:44.12 Keith Kintigh In a hierarchical way and then you can do a data integration. We've now got a project that Kate Spielman led I don't know 350000 elements across the southwest from I don't know 30 some sites all all integrated so that you can query that as one. 06:46.39 Paul Um. 06:57.58 archpodnet Ah. 07:02.41 Keith Kintigh Ah, integrated dataset so having people use the the data integration features of Tdr or do it on their own if they want to but just really be able to use Tdr to do archcological synthesis and I've been involved with with Jeff alchel. 07:05.81 Paul Are. 07:17.91 Keith Kintigh And the creation of the coalition for archaeological synthesis which is really developed devoted to encouraging archaeological synthesis and trying to figure out ways to do it. Um. 07:27.61 archpodnet Okay, um, is tar jumping on the ah well okay, me start over looking back at your comment about you know data synthesis analysi and having people use tar I'm wondering is tdar jumping on the Ai bandwagon like ah pretty much everybody else is these days because i've. 07:37.73 Keith Kintigh Are. 07:47.25 archpodnet Always said and it's really bad here in Nevada I think because we you know we walk across the desert on a huge pipeline or something like that and you know we record these 2 flake Lithic scatters that nobody really cares about or single flake you know isolates and things like that that by themselves don't really mean anything but together as a whole obviously. 07:49.68 Keith Kintigh Um. 07:57.80 Keith Kintigh Um. 08:03.76 Keith Kintigh Right now. Oh. 08:06.58 archpodnet You can tell things from that. But it's difficult for humans to see that sometimes you know what I mean and like I said is tdar thinking about using or integrating any sort of Ai tools in order to help with some of these things or anything else. 08:20.99 Keith Kintigh Um, we haven't really talked about that specifically we have talked about um and done a little experimentation with automated um metadata creation that is having ah having the machine. Basically. 08:35.64 archpodnet Um. 08:38.16 Keith Kintigh Read the report and be able to extract the metadata I mean that would that would go a long ways. Um and and ads has done some experiments with this. Um, that's probably the the closest thing. Um you know it's sort of. 08:42.40 archpodnet Sure. 08:55.98 Keith Kintigh Ai related and we put in a proposal I put him with an Ai guy at Arizona State A Few Years Ago but turns out to be pretty complicated to to do that. Um, and I'm just because of the way archaeological reports are structured and. 09:04.90 archpodnet Ah. 09:07.19 archpodnet Okay. 09:12.77 archpodnet Sure. 09:14.62 Keith Kintigh You know you know there's simply the mention of a pottery type. You know you know somebody gets a and we didn't find any X Well that then X shows up So but I think I think there is some There is some future I think in doing that we hadn't talked about. 09:24.39 archpodnet Rhett. 09:25.31 Paul Um, right. 09:32.46 Keith Kintigh Ai for analysis I think there has been I reviewed an and Nsf proposal of you know, doing some visual stuff with ai basically related or neural network processing of images to try to extract things but we haven't. And we we haven't done too much on the analysis side I think that's is probably. We've got plenty to do So I Think that's probably for other people to do but we could certainly try to supply the data to make that possible. 09:59.18 archpodnet Okay, you know I think I know the answer to this but I want to hear what you say who's TR's biggest I want to I don't want to say competitor necessarily because we shouldn't be competing for archeological data. But I guess ah obstacle maybe to national dominance. 10:13.25 Keith Kintigh Um, you know we don't. 10:15.75 archpodnet In in data storage. Yeah, who is the biggest competitor right now. 10:21.86 Keith Kintigh I Mean the only the only other thing that I'm even aware of really um and of something that's sort of organized I mean our biggest competitor is really everybody putting their own stuff on their own hard desk and then thinking they've thinking they've dealt with their data. But I mean that's the real competition. Um, right? um. 10:28.35 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:31.56 Paul Um, yeah, ah. 10:34.57 archpodnet Ah, right right? dropbox? Yeah yes. 10:41.72 Keith Kintigh Exactly um, open open context. Um, that's run by Eric and and Sarah Kanza has been. You know they they advertise themselves as a publishing platform but they're they're doing a lot of good work. We've actually got a joint grant with them. Ah. 10:45.37 Paul Easy. 11:01.00 Keith Kintigh To implement. Ah that Sarah I mean I I led an initial effort and then Sarah's led the current one. Um from the I can't number the funder anyway to implement the fair and care data principles and doing this across. 11:15.30 archpodnet Ah. 11:20.52 Keith Kintigh Open context but bringing in agency people native people um a big group to really try to figure out how to do that So open context does some of what we do open context is not ah all of the data in open context is public. They don't have any ability to do confidential data and they don't want it. 11:37.56 archpodnet Bread. 11:39.88 Paul Um, right. 11:40.38 Keith Kintigh But that basically rules them out for dealing with Crm data in almost all cases. So it's not really competition for the most part I mean in some cases academic units will go to them rather than us. But it's not I don't that's not the real obstacle I think for us. 11:45.61 archpodnet Ah. 11:56.53 archpodnet Um. 11:57.31 Keith Kintigh But I I think what they do is really important and they've done a lot of good good work both within open context and just in publicizing what needs to be done. But we're very much in sync with them and so we support them and they support us in many ways. 12:02.10 archpodnet Brett. 12:10.63 Paul And. 12:13.14 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, it seems like bringing all these all these things together would help I think I think give people a little more confidence in you know where they're putting their data and what's going on because the other one that came to mind was ah Dina the digital index of north american archeology I think it is and they're. 12:21.22 Keith Kintigh Um. 12:23.86 Keith Kintigh No. 12:30.18 archpodnet Cataloging so to speak of archaeological sites on on public lands in the Southeast and I don't know how far they've branched out these days but it it all seems to come together to to be really good for archaeologists to do analysis and and large scale analysis and to really see the big picture out there and and to find things. But there's still. 12:34.87 Keith Kintigh I Want to. O o. 12:49.36 archpodnet I don't know to me. There's still really should only be you know 1 place where everybody goes there again. There shouldn't be competition. There should just be hey you want to store data here. You go here, you want to do big data analysis where you go here. You know should be the same place because that's where the data is stored but I don't know if. 12:55.65 Keith Kintigh Yeah. 13:04.53 archpodnet I Don't know how long it would take us to get to that point somebody would have to come and buy everything up and provide a lot of funding. Probably. 13:07.95 Keith Kintigh Oh it's even worse than that I mean I you know that I mean that Dina is you know, basically most of the states in the west have simply refused to deal with them and so I think the the state side files are the other place where a lot of data goes. But those. 13:19.62 archpodnet Brett. 13:26.68 archpodnet Ah. 13:27.10 Keith Kintigh I was actually for a long time or for several years and early in my career responsible for the Arizona State The state of Arizona system and its as site but those those things are so tightly held and I mean. 13:34.78 archpodnet Um, Brent. 13:44.46 Keith Kintigh You even try to have a discussion with those groups and they're like incredibly protective and you couldn't possibly I mean I think that's a long ways off to be able to integrate all of those ah all of those site files. Um, but um, that. 13:52.44 archpodnet Right? okay. 13:55.94 Paul Um. 14:01.24 Keith Kintigh That's a different kind of that's a huge political problem each almost every state has their own and then like the forest service has its system which is totally closed and you know so the the state side. The site Files are really the most difficult thing although Andina has tried their best to try to sort of. 14:04.70 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 14:20.73 archpodnet Ah. 14:20.93 Keith Kintigh Make some of those data available. It's not really competition to T dark because they're not storing the the data and so forth. Yeah, right? um. 14:24.19 archpodnet Sure. Okay, yeah I'd be more a more like a layer on top of what tiar has if if we could look at it that way right? Okay, well we're just about at the end here. Is there anything you wanted to mention and get out there about T R that we haven't talked about. 14:40.57 Keith Kintigh Um, now I Just encourage people to go to tdi.org and try it out and there's lots of information if you have any questions contact the staff and there's a contact us button And. Ah, there. But really I think it's It's a it's a great resource. It's there. We'd recently obtained the core trust Seal sort of certifying the capabilities of tdar and we're the only one that's got that certification in the Us. So I encourage people to try it. It's it really is a great resource for. 15:05.51 archpodnet Um. 15:09.11 Keith Kintigh Ah, for archeology. Um. 15:09.62 archpodnet Awesome! All right? Well maybe ah maybe next year we can debut the tdar podcast on the archeology podcast network we'll talk about that. So all right? Awesome! Thank you Keith for coming on yep and. 15:19.29 Keith Kintigh Okay, ah thank you very much I appreciate the opportunity. 15:22.37 Paul Thank you Thanks for coming on. 15:26.69 archpodnet Absolutely and anything else. You guys want to talk about in the future. You know where to find us and we were more than happy to talk about it. Anybody that's got questions or or comments or anything like that find us in all the socials and you can comment right on this episode at apodnet.com/archeotech forward slash 2 10 with that. 15:31.84 Keith Kintigh Um. 15:45.85 archpodnet We'll see you guys next time.