00:02.50 heritagevoices Okay, and we're back again and so what? Obviously we've talked about um, all the happy shiny good things about this project and other projects. Um, what what have been some some challenges. That have come up doing ethnographic work for the 3 of you. 00:25.55 Joseph Gazing Wolf I think I think there are 2 especially especially for scholars and students that are listening to this I think there are 2 important things to raise here. 1 is the the. Context in which this work is taking place. So so we have to acknowledge the the history that has taken place here. Um, the historical context where you know we're working with communities that have been that have had several attempts at erasure right? that that. Culturally raise your physical linguistic language etc I mean in in every way they've been removed from the land and removed from history and there are many forces at work now trying to remove them from history books altogether and so um. You know these folks are are willing to come into a context that has has historically been incredibly antithetical to their very existence. Um, so so we have to recognize that and so like I said earlier you know we we. Do our best to follow proper protocol to welcome them in as relatives and as loved ones and we we make sure that we try to educate our federal state and city partners to approach in a respectful manner and to recognize that historical context taking place. 01:50.89 Joseph Gazing Wolf And so I would urge any scholars that are doing similar work or hope to do similar work to to understand the context in which you're working and and and the extreme discomfort that these elders and and tribal reps are putting themselves in in order to be there. And the other thing to be more specific to anthropologists I had ah had a you know I work I work broadly I work with indigenous nations all over the world and I was I was in Ecuador this summer working with Keche one mode on e people and and learning the keche one mode on e language and the elders that that were teaching me keto started talking about anthropologists because the the primary people that they've had contact with who are scholars have been anthropologists and and i. I was curious I asked you know what's what's the kewa word for anthropologists and and there there isn't one they said they said you Yana and I said wait a second um you Yana is the word for liar and and they're like they're like yup that's that's the word that we use for anthropologists. 03:01.00 Erica Ah. 03:02.51 Joseph Gazing Wolf Um, so so so you know this this history of imposing 1 ne's viewpoints on indigenous people studying them like rats lab rats and then and then imposing you know western settler colonial cultural perspective. On their world and viewpoint is is per is just pervasive throughout anthropology and and other areas of scholarship and so you need to understand that you are if you're an anthropologist especially if you're a settler colonial anthropologist if you're non-indi. You are the face of of. Cultural genocide. You are the face of of you know you you represent a a kind a field and a context that has tried historically to erase these people their language their history and their culture and so you need to come in with that consciousness. And make sure that you're approaching these people not just respectfully but that you approach them with absolute understanding of what human dignity requires of you in that context and and do honest scholarship right? so. So these 2 points are really important for any anthropologist and especially students and future scholars to understand. 04:17.99 heritagevoices And. 04:23.14 Erica Yeah I think Joseph brings out really excellent points around ethics and I think most you know all anthropologists are educated and in academia right? So they're they're learning how to do anthropology usually unless you're at a really cool. Ah, progressive school usually from from other non-native people. So if you're looking to do anthropology with indigenous groups just like Joseph said you really need to understand the context in which you're working and you also need to reconsider things that you've been taught about ethics because. You know I was always taught in school by non-native people you oh you get the informed consent form and you're good to go but that is not culturally relevant with indigenous groups you have to think about the ethics of the people with whom you are working and like something like consent. Is revocable and temporary and you need to be checking in and you need to have a collaborative process and you you can't be extractionist and you have to think about the tangible ways in which you've been taught to do anthropology and decolonialize them not to use such a Buzzword but really be. Mindful about how you do this work and I think that it is hard for people to do this work ethically if you don't know the people that you're working with well or you're not. You know, exposed to cultural norms and there's a lot of. 06:00.95 Erica Pre-work and conversations and life experience that I think you need to have in order to to do this work in a way that is ethical, mindful and and mutually benefits. Ah you know all of the parties involved but you always want to make sure that your research contributors and this. In this context, it would be the tribal representatives and the tribal nations and and communities that they're benefiting from it the most and they're always your your first priority is protecting them and and prioritizing their once it needs. 06:43.75 Joseph Gazing Wolf Yeah I think I think that's that's an excellent point Eica that a lot of a lot of these western standards of ethics just simply don't are incredibly foreign to to us right? and in our in our context and so you know it. If if there's one way that I can relate you know an indigenous concept to a western audience I would say you know approaches people like they're your family right? If if if you understand you know it. If you're comfortable with somebody speaking over your grandmother when she's speaking. Okay, if if you're like you know there's something seriously wrong with you. But um, but ah, but but you know if you have healthy relationships with your family members. Um. 07:26.63 Erica Um. 07:35.63 Joseph Gazing Wolf You know you you wouldn't want somebody to smother their culture and their language and their voice for for their own and so and and you would want to check in with them regularly to make sure that they're still comfortable with what's going on right? So that so that incredibly important point you made Eriica of like. 07:47.70 Erica Me. 07:53.21 Joseph Gazing Wolf Informed consent is not a ah 1 time and you're done kind of thing you you check in regularly to see are you still? okay with what's happening here. Are you okay with sharing this in what context are you? okay, sharing this Etc, etc and and and another thing that I that it's important to highlight is. If you're doing this to further your own career as a scholar that's that's okay, just let people know exactly how you're going to be using information and in what way and in what manner and how it's going to benefit you. You need to let them know this very clearly and and engage in that dialogue regularly with. With the with the indigenous folks that you're working with um I've seen it many times I mean we know this we know this story over and over right? people go in they extract knowledge. Nothing comes back to the community they further their own academic careers and they go away and never. Relate to the community again this this cannot keep happening and and so what we're trying to stand for both at living heritage anthropology and at the living heritage research council is we're trying to give a counter example to that we're trying to show what actual research that is that is. That is honest that is indigenous led looks like and and it's it's ah it's a good example to follow and and hopefully people listen to this and and kind of take some important points out of it and incorporate it into their own approach. 09:28.84 heritagevoices Any other challenges or or things that you would want people to know. 09:42.40 Joseph Gazing Wolf And I think I think one one other point if I may share that there has to there that the point about Consciousness is really important because a lot of people can read books and understand. In fact, I've talked to some of my white colleagues at the University and some of them are familiar with all kinds of the latest research and and. And and thinking on Settler colonialism and they're very well versed in this and that other author and this and that theory and um and yet you know when you observe them in context working with nations with tribal nations. They they commit every. Settler Colonial typical settler colonial approach. Ah they they commit all these mistakes of speaking over and smothering the voices of natives the natives they're working with so the the important the really important point to drive home here is you have to be mindful in the moment. 10:51.48 Joseph Gazing Wolf That that you're practicing what you understand intellectually because I've been in Contexts where like I'll I'll just give a quick example and sorry I'm taking so much time. But ah, ah you know we were. 10:59.84 Erica You. 11:04.37 Joseph Gazing Wolf We were in a meeting that was all about how to recognize the communities that we're working with as academics. So so we had this big meeting at the university where you know we all we broke out into. Individual sessions talking about how to recognize the local communities that we're working with in our research and in our research presentations and 1 of my colleagues from the lab I was working with at the time was leading one of these discussions. She was the leader of one of these discussions we go from that meeting to a lab meeting. Where the same person who is leading that discussion is talking about her work with indigenous nations in Senegal and she doesn't mention at all any of the local community members or local. Ah. Women that senegalese wool off women that she worked with there that made her research possible. She doesn't mention them by name and so I point out because this whole the whole presentation was her giving her presentation to practice with the lab before she gives it publicly and so it was our job as her co lab members to give her criticism. And so I speak up and I say hey you didn't mention the local communities that you're working with at all, you didn't acknowledge them at all in your presentation and she was extremely offended that I gave her that feedback so literally 2 minutes prior to that she was she was leading a talk about how to get you know. 12:21.18 heritagevoices And. 12:22.19 Erica So specific. 12:26.69 heritagevoices Who. 12:31.49 Joseph Gazing Wolf So so there's all kinds of it's really important that you're mindful in the context that you're mindful in the moment of what you're doing because otherwise it doesn't matter what knowledge you hold in your head If you're not practicing and in context it's worthless. 12:44.40 heritagevoices Yeah, yeah, absolutely I think we've all seen that that moment of of white fragility happen. 12:58.75 Erica Yeah I think that's something that's really unique to applied anthropology and what's really special about doing field work is that you actually have to embody anthropology and embody the ethics. Of of the people that you're working with in a way that's different from people from anthropologists who are professors or who just work in Academia or who only do you know research in their offices. We call them armchair anthropologists often. Um, so that's one of the. Awesome benefits of of doing applied work and actually being in the field is that you get to you get to embody the practice in a way that you actually get to practice what you preach a little bit. 13:49.70 heritagevoices Yeah, yeah, and I'd I'd echo what some of you were already saying in that. Um you know we we in order to be an anthropologist. You have to go to these academic programs that train you in 1 way and then order to be successful as an anthropologist like as a. 14:01.34 Reshawn Edison Um. 14:07.27 heritagevoices Um, you know a collaborative community-based anthropologist you have to unlearn half of what you were then taught in the you know the academic setting. Um and so like for example, like Joseph you mentioned? Um, ah, you know how you would treat your grandmother but like actually. The way I would treat my grandmother is is pretty different than the way I would treat an indigenous elder in the sense of like um for my grandmother like it's respectful if you were like asking questions and like um. 14:43.88 heritagevoices Ah, stuff like that whereas like I had to learn that like oh that's actually not showing that I'm like listening and being respectful. Um, so like I think there's also you know like there's like basic forms of respect. But then there's also um, being aware that. 15:03.70 heritagevoices Um, you know it's not like these are are white people that you add some dances and beads to and then you know it's like um, ah. 15:09.96 Joseph Gazing Wolf Yeah, well and this and this is an example of trying to speak across Worlds right? walking in different Worlds I mean I don't know how to communicate it to to settler culture to so to say like to relate it to. 15:16.73 heritagevoices Brian. 15:27.27 Joseph Gazing Wolf Ah, personal experience. So so maybe maybe you have ah ah a different perspective. That's a better way to relate it. But but yeah, even saying that relate to these folks like they're your family I I'm still using an indigenous perspective to say that right because I'm relating to like my family and you know and for me that means something. 15:38.63 heritagevoices Right. 15:41.90 Erica I. 15:43.45 heritagevoices A. 15:45.87 Joseph Gazing Wolf As an indigenous person but but yeah that you're right I mean I Yeah, it's you have to be very careful to say that because people treat their family differently depending on their yeah yeah yeah, the the. 15:54.12 Erica Is. 15:54.93 heritagevoices Yeah, for real rights? Yeah, um, yeah I mean yeah, no, it's just a lot of um, like ah. 16:08.80 heritagevoices For for for my you know ah experience It was a lot of um, just ah, being aware and paying attention to what's happening around you noticing where there's discomfort. Um, you know, asking about it. Ah, receiving that criticism. Um, as you know not being about you but about um about the work itself and making it better. Um, you know not going into that that white fragility moment but ah recognizing that that it's not about you. Um, so but it is about you like taking that and and making things better I think that's which I mean it's a long hard continuous I'm still going through it every day process. Um I Wish there was an easy look. This is what you do. 16:59.58 Joseph Gazing Wolf You make enough for her. 17:06.33 heritagevoices Done. 17:07.81 Joseph Gazing Wolf Yeah, and I think I think you really touched it there Jessica because the the 1 thing that really stands out when I think I think every indigenous person could probably relate to this. The 1 thing that stands out about interacting with non-indigenous folks is that anything you talk about. 17:08.50 Erica Um. 17:26.90 heritagevoices So. 17:26.98 Joseph Gazing Wolf Will somehow be spun to be made about them and and it might be central to the culture right? and individualist to culture. It's all about the individual right? So So that might be just inherent to the culture. But but it's really destructive when it takes place where people are interacting with indigenous people right? Um, to. Kind of recenter what the person What the indigenous person is saying or the stories they're telling or or the context that they're in and kind of redirect it at you to highlight yourself that that's something that I would encourage my my western friends to be very conscious of yeah. 17:48.33 heritagevoices So. 17:59.91 heritagevoices Yeah. 18:06.38 heritagevoices Anybody have um, any additional like advice or or things that you um, you know from from boulder but from your other work as Well. Um. About how to how to do this work and how to do it. Better. 18:26.52 Erica Um, yeah I would I would say the like just first thing across all my work that I would encourage people if they want to do this work or if they're just interested in it. The first thing they should do is to think about their homes and where they live and who was dispossessed of that area so that it could be used by non-native people because. Just like rashan said earlier everyone is is on native land on stolen land. So I think the first step in educating yourself is to understand whose land you're on and to learn that history so that you can be a more conscious member of society. Um, yeah. 18:59.86 heritagevoices Are. 19:02.46 Erica That will be my first piece of advice. 19:11.73 Reshawn Edison What I will say in some of my other practices within being an ethnographer in an anthropology even I'm like coming from an indigenous background right? where. Like everything is so communal and like Egalitarian in a way which is like very far from Egalitarian but still in that kind of Realm. It's super easy to come off as Arrogant and it's super easy to come off as a know- it all if you come from a western perspective to indigenous peoples. 19:34.93 heritagevoices A. 19:44.91 Reshawn Edison Like no matter what kind of conversation. No matter what kind of project if you come from a worldview that as much like Western culture Two indigenous people you're gonna come off as Arrogant you're gonna come off as ignorant and within like the all inspiring work that I see within a lot of the um elders and tribal. Representatives that we have worked with they deal with that constantly they deal with that all the time and the fact that they're giving you the time and day for us to be a part of their lives. Um, it makes that so much more valuable in the aspect that these people have. Ph Ds in their culture. They had Ph Ds in their language which is intergenerational which a modern day professor a Ph D scholar will never be able to comprehend right and will never be able to be on that kind of level and they don't need those titles. And so those are the kind of like if I were to give advice and viewpoints is we look up to our elders as if they have Ph Ds and it's higher than Ph Ds right? Um, yeah, super easy to be ignorant period. 20:55.73 heritagevoices Yeah, yeah. 20:59.32 Erica Yeah, and I I think thinking about this work with boulder specifically I think that's 1 thing that I was excited about was the city's the city of Boulder's willingness to like listen and learn and to say like hey we don't know what we're doing at all. We don't know anything. We're asking you for this. We know it's a big ask and they demonstrate their commitment to that by allocating a lot of resources to this work like like they're allocating time people money like Joseph said not only the city of Boulder. But the individual people involved. Are are dedicating time to this and and to learn about the past so that is directly related to the impactful and meaningful outcomes that they will get out of this so other advice I would say is I would encourage other cities in the United States and Canada and wherever to look at the work that boulder is doing. As kind of a blueprint for how this work can be done and why it's important to do because the city is getting a lot out of this work. They are really bending from benefiting from it. This isn't like charity work. This is something that everyone is doing for the city and it is also mutually benefiting the tribe so this is something that. Has great mutual benefits for indigenous nations. The city us obviously as anthropologists like we've been talking about. But I think that every city in the United States could could benefit from this and if there are any cities listening who'd like to do it. You could send living heritage an email and we'd be happy to. Ah. 22:35.23 Erica To help you out. 22:37.41 heritagevoices There you go well and I just I want to say too like how much of an honor It's been to work with the 3 of you. Um, and how much I've learned from the 3 of you and how much I appreciate. Um, you know, just the the spirit of this group and and um, like. Everybody's willingness to just like jump in and and get it done and do it right? and care for um, the people that we're working with and care for each other like I can't tell you how much I appreciate like for example, Joseph I was really having an off day during 1 of our intro meetings. And Joseph really like jumped in and saved the day. Um because I was I was flustered from from moving from 1 thing to another really quickly and um I just really appreciate like how much this group is is willing to have real honest conversations and um. To do whatever needs to be done to to do the job. Well so I appreciate the three of you so much. 23:35.85 Joseph Gazing Wolf But that that that highlights a really important point Jessica because you know one of the things that makes it such a pleasure to work with you is that you wear your humanity on your shoulders right? So you wear it on your face. Yeah I mean the fact that you've been doing this work for way longer than than I mean professionally you've been doing this work for way longer than than I've even come close to and yet you on many occasions you stop and say hey did I do that right? Do you have any recommendations I'm like you're asking me, you are asking me. Ah, so so so the fact that you that you approach this with humility. Is that it's the reason that these people trust you and call you family. It. It always comes down to understanding that you are a guest that you are there to learn their ways and and and and to elevate their voices as much as you can from your podium. Right? And and and that you are going to make mistakes you're going to have bad days and and and to approach it as the the human and hard that you are is so important and and bolder the bolder individuals that we worked with um the reason they're such a pleasure to work with is the same thing I mean I had several of the folks that were there. You know they would do something they would say something they would you know engage with the tribal reps and then they would come up to me individually kind of take me to the side and say hey did did I do that right? Do do do you think I could have made it better I mean just just the fact that they that they're humbled enough um to to do that. 25:10.91 Joseph Gazing Wolf Um, speaks volumes as to all, you know what? what where your hearts are and what your intentions are. 25:19.70 heritagevoices All right? any any last thoughts anybody have anything they've been itching to say. 25:30.65 Erica And not really I'm just happy to be a part of this I'm glad we got to do this I love working with all of you just echoing all of a lot of Joseph sentiments as well. Even just like Jessica even just like having this podcast you know and giving having this opportunity for people to to talk about their work is. Is. Awesome. 25:51.96 heritagevoices Yeah, what I really hope is after we finish this report and it's like out in the public because that is the goal of this report for it to be a public document and that was decided by the tribes that we work on work work on work with um ah. 26:04.38 Erica Oh. 26:08.67 heritagevoices So my my hope is it'd be really awesome Once that's um, you know out in the public that maybe we can have some of the the reps that we work with come on the podcast and and share the experience from their perspective that'd be really cool. 26:23.11 Erica It will be awesome. 26:25.68 heritagevoices All right? or Sean any last thoughts Joseph. 26:32.67 Reshawn Edison I'm looking forward to the ethnographic report podcast part two with travel reps. It's gonna be great. 26:38.83 heritagevoices Yes, it's going to be awesome. All right? Well thank you all so much for coming and and taking all this time and um, sharing with everybody and um, just. So excited and honored that I get to to keep working with all of you and hopefully many money many many more projects. So Thanks guys. 27:02.63 Joseph Gazing Wolf Thank you. 27:03.78 Erica Thank you. 27:06.29 Reshawn Edison Thank you.