00:01.35 heritagevoices Okay, so we're back from our break and I I know um you were talking about some of the different gis analysis and we were just talking during the break and it sounds like. Um, for anyone that's interested in learning more because like we talked about there's a lot more that could be said on this topic. Um that it sounds like you're going to have an article coming out next year can you tell me a little bit more about what's going to be in there. 00:29.90 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah, so a cohort of mine we presented. Um at SHA in Portugal. 00:38.31 heritagevoices Hey um I don't know are you something like I can't hear you as as well right now. Maybe you have to like talk more directly to the microphone or something. Yeah, it's a little better. Maybe just. 00:43.43 Jonathan Rodriguez Can you hear me now can you hear me better or no. 00:53.20 heritagevoices Speak up a little bit more I don't know why it's quieter all of a sudden but that that's better. 00:55.10 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah, ah maybe I'm not talking loud enough. Okay, ah yeah, so we have a special issue coming out with American antiquity and. Will be from that preliminary research of the visibility and accessibility analysis I did with um gis. And yeah I forgot what I was supposed to talk about sorry. 01:25.45 heritagevoices Ah, no I was I was just asking you what you were going to talk about in the article. So so that was good. 01:30.50 Jonathan Rodriguez Oh yeah, So so in the article we'll be I'll I talk about um the visibility from the camps and as well as line of sight between camps and then the possible routes between each camp. That they would have taken. 01:51.47 heritagevoices Cool All right? Well I'm excited to read it when it comes Out. Um and I'm going to shift topics slightly but kind of stay on the same topic for a little bit longer. Um, this is something that you mentioned already a little bit. Um and then you and I talked about. Even a little bit more before we started. Um and I'd really I'm really curious I'd really love to hear more about um the maritime maroons. So Can you tell us what you mean by that and um, yeah, more about what that means. 02:26.62 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah, so even prior to the british colonizing Dominica in 1763 after the seven years war ah dominica was kind of a refuge for. Ah, indigenous peoples fleeing spanish colonization in the greater antilles and they would travel by canoe to dominica um, and then later on. After british colonization. There was still these maritime networks between ah the different caribbean islands and dominica so I was first put onto this reading the work done by Dr. justin dunevvan and he had an article where he did geospatial analysis. Um from st croix and the virgin islands and their possible routes of travel landing in puerto rico and in 1 of the articles that he published he did mention. People from st crox going to dominiica which sparked my curiosity and then reading more into the work of Dr. honeychurch as well as Dr. neil vaz they mentioned maritime maroon networks in dominiica. 03:55.48 Jonathan Rodriguez And how the maroons would travel to the nearby french islands of martinique and guadalupe. So then I became kind of interested in connecting the land with the sea. Um and then from my experiences. With our guides that had taken us to the 2 different maroon camps chief farcell and chief Jacko we noticed that there was a lot of these they're they're called govier they're ah type of tree where they would ah create. Canoes out of these trees and at both camps there were these massive trees that could be used to create canoes and there there was other resources that they could use these trees for ah for example um incense as fuel for fires. So I kind of wanted to connect and it might be out of the scope of my dissertation research. But for future research trying to do a similar study that Justin Dunnavant did to try and map out these maritime Maroon Networks from Dominica to other islands or from other islands to dominika. 05:16.45 heritagevoices Okay, wow. 05:23.97 heritagevoices Yeah, and um, okay so we're talking about future work now. So do you have a vision I mean like I said there's already a lot that you could do with with what you're working on. Um, but do you have a vision for um. 05:34.87 Jonathan Rodriguez Right. 05:39.83 heritagevoices You know, other future research that you'd like to do. 05:41.95 Jonathan Rodriguez So I'm hoping after I finish my work in Dominica to try and recreate a similar study in Puerto Rico where my family from and the. Archeology of marinagej in Puerto rico is not at the same level as either pre colombian archeology or you know the contact period. Um, so I'm hoping that. Once I finish my dissertation I can then kind of use those same skills to study marinoj in Puerto Rico. So. 06:28.75 heritagevoices Um, yeah, is there. Ah I don't know if you've well I guess you already mentioned you hadn't looked at this yet. So maybe this is not a fair question. So maybe I'll ask you something else because I was going to ask like if you've noticed any differences already between the 2 um, but. You just said you have all those books on yourself. So maybe we'll have Chris just edit that out. 06:47.11 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah I I mean I haven't noticed many differences because I haven't really researched enough but ah 1 of the things that Justin Dunnovan did was ah he went. 06:51.42 heritagevoices A. 07:01.89 Jonathan Rodriguez To Puerto rico to the municipality of Luisa which has a very high afroscendent population and the the actual town was created by you know formerly enslaved people that had escaped slavery. So. 07:06.24 heritagevoices Um. 07:18.11 heritagevoices Hey. 07:21.58 Jonathan Rodriguez Ah, you know I there there is evidence there. It's just there hasn't been as much archeological research done on the topic. 07:33.88 heritagevoices Which just blows my mind because it's a super interesting topic like I just I don't I don't understand how um because I think you so in I think it was in the Fulbright article that you sent me which will put in the show notes as well. Ah, that. 07:36.78 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah, yeah. 07:51.28 heritagevoices You this will be the first. Um, what was at first archeology. No I guess what? yeah I'm trying to remember exactly what it was. This is I'm doing a terrible job of describing this. But. 07:56.50 Jonathan Rodriguez Investigation. Yeah yeah, no, no, you're you're right like it will be the first archeological investigation and some of that has to do with the maroons tried. 08:14.41 heritagevoices A. 08:14.48 Jonathan Rodriguez Their hardest to remain hidden and like the the kind of nickname for Maroon Archaeology is like the archaeology of absence because there's not that many material cultural remains at some of these sites. 08:24.40 heritagevoices Here here here. 08:31.21 heritagevoices Hey. 08:33.40 Jonathan Rodriguez Um, but I think having um, a multifaceted kind of research design where we're including oral histories were including the archaeology at chief Jacko's site we're also doing spatial analysis of the settlement patterns I think you can at least have the groundwork there to further investigate some of these sites and some are more hard to reach like I said the chief ah the chief Jacko site is a lot easier to get to versus. 08:59.81 heritagevoices He he. 09:09.46 Jonathan Rodriguez The chief farcell site. So that's another aspect of it. But it's not that it can't be done like the work of Dr Cheryl White um her dissertation research was in surinam studying maroons and she was out there. 09:12.64 heritagevoices Ah. 09:28.32 Jonathan Rodriguez Camping for like a week and her maroon guys they were like hunting for their food. It's it's an incredible story. Um can be done. It's more of just like are you willing to go to the next level to get it done. 09:34.54 heritagevoices Okay. 09:43.65 heritagevoices Yeah, yeah, so if there's well okay before we do this actually I'm just going to like rerecord where I ask you that question. So it's not like me going back and forth on that question. Um, and then I'll ask you my next actual question. So so Chris sorry. You can take this here and put it back since I um, yeah since I didn't do a very good job of introducing the last question so all right? So I mean in your work. So far. Um, have you noticed? Um I know obviously you haven't started working in Puerto Rico yet but just from what you've seen so far has there been a difference in ah the experience of of the maroon communities in um, ah or or the archeology. Maybe I should say. Ah, in and history I'm botching the attempt to fix the botch. Um, so okay, sorry, um, okay. So just in in what you've seen so far. Obviously you haven't gotten to do the work in in Puerto Rico yet but have you seen um, major differences between ah, ah Dominiica and and Puerto rico okay sorry Chris that's better. Um, and okay. 11:03.52 Jonathan Rodriguez Um. 11:05.62 heritagevoices Um, yeah, and so I'm curious. Um, so with you working on this topic which is like you said it's It's a less explored topic in a lot of ways especially in archeology. Um, what? what is what is something or a couple of things that you really Wish. People knew about this topic. 11:29.53 Jonathan Rodriguez I think first is that there were maroons not only in Dominica but throughout the western hemisphere. Um, wherever slavery existed. Um, it's just some of the bigger. Maroon settlements in Brazil and Jamaica and Cuba and surinam. They've kind of gotten the most focus so there are other instances of marinagej especially in the eastern caribbean that have. Now begun people are starting to talk about and study and it's not say like people obviously on the island we're talking about it's more of like I guess us scholars are just in academia starting to research. Um. 12:24.67 Jonathan Rodriguez And then I feel like I botched this? Ah can we go back? Um, because I for I Honestly I forgot the question. What was. 12:29.39 heritagevoices Who doing great. 12:36.13 heritagevoices Yeah, so the question was just what would you want people to know about this topic since it's very understudied. 12:44.27 Jonathan Rodriguez Um, yeah, it's it's a very understudied um topic in archaeology especially in the eastern caribbean um, and I'm hoping with my research that. We can center the perspectives of maroons and maroon descendants and then begin to do more comparative analysis of maroons in dominika and lesser antilles with some of the more well-known sites. Um. Throughout the Americas. 13:24.67 heritagevoices And um, other than I suppose it getting studied more um is there anything else. Um and and like you said, including more of the the voices of the descendants. Um is there anything else that you'd like to see change. Um like within. This type of work. 13:46.62 Jonathan Rodriguez So I think one way this could really benefit maroon descendants in Dominica as well as the Americas is they've been trying to get legally recognized by the un um. 14:00.89 heritagevoices Are. 14:03.64 Jonathan Rodriguez As indigenous to the land and to get the rights for their lands. Um, there's a movement the heritage maroon heritage movement and I can give you a link to an article about it but they've been. Collectively organizing maroon descendants throughout the Americas to get this recognition from the un and I'm hoping that my research could be useful in that aspect. 14:36.40 heritagevoices Um, and I wonder I mean does that like is there any sort of um conflict that then arises like between um, the marines and and other indigenous communities like. With this movement at all just curious. 14:57.22 Jonathan Rodriguez Um, what? what? what was the question again. Sorry. 14:59.31 heritagevoices I Don't know if that's up or not so like I'm just curious if if um, you know in fighting to be considered indigenous whether there's been any friction at all with like other indigenous communities in this is effort. 15:14.82 Jonathan Rodriguez I don't know per se I know that there are I guess political tensions between the colinago and um african descended population in Dominicica. Um. 15:20.75 heritagevoices A. 15:31.87 heritagevoices Um. 15:32.62 Jonathan Rodriguez I'm another thing I'm kind of hoping the archaeological investigation of chief Jacko Camp can shed light on is possible um networks and connections between the enslaved population. 15:40.86 heritagevoices A. 15:50.35 Jonathan Rodriguez As well as the indigenous colinago on the island during that time period. Um, because in lenux's work. He talks about there being that connection and collaboration between the indigenous colinago and ah the first. 15:54.85 heritagevoices Um, yeah, that'd be super interesting. 16:09.28 Jonathan Rodriguez Enslaved africans to flee to Dominica but then kind of dissipates once we get to the british colonial period. So I'm hoping that my research can kind of shed light on that and then we can kind of come together. 16:09.90 heritagevoices A. 16:28.52 Jonathan Rodriguez Towards this indigenous sovereignty issue. Yeah yeah and I will say I said it was the Maroon heritage movement. It's the Maroon gathering movement. Yeah. 16:32.25 heritagevoices Um, yeah, yeah, interesting. 16:40.60 heritagevoices Maroon gathering. Okay. 16:45.83 heritagevoices Okay, well we are. We're at the end of our time. Ah, any last thoughts that you want to share with everyone. 16:55.00 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah, um, I'm just super thankful to you know, be here and have this conversation with you. Um, and you know hopefully. 17:07.12 Jonathan Rodriguez This can bring some more awareness to maroons in Dominica in their heritage and history. And yeah. 17:15.23 heritagevoices Yeah, well and I'm super excited for your fulbright I'm excited to hear how it goes and you know maybe someday. Ah you and your partners in the the marne community and or the descendants I should say ah in ah. Ah, Dominica you know could could come on again and and we can talk about what you found and and what um they already know and what you're learning and um, yeah could be could be a really interesting future episode so putting that bug in your ear. But um, yeah, so. 17:43.98 Jonathan Rodriguez Yeah, that would be great. 17:49.20 heritagevoices Um, thank you again for for taking so much time and um, yeah I'm really interested to hear more in the future. 17:56.37 Jonathan Rodriguez Thanks for having me.