00:00.00 ALEX And we are back with archeo animals. We are talking about the zoeology of Europe and in this segment we'll be looking at the domestic kits which I'm sure loyal listeners will. Know a fair a bit about domestic Kidss particularly in Europe but Tay there might be something new. There probably isn't weak. The thing you'll learn in this mini series with domestic its is this oddly enough we kind of. All have very similar domesticate species but I tried my best to find some interesting ones. 00:39.24 S_ Granarius Yeah, guess for yeah, for the most part is sort of pretty much the same species that were domesticated ah in various areas of the world at various points of time and then they just spread. 00:52.34 ALEX That said, ah we will start off with and I think we have talked about them. But it's always nice to talk about Donkeys Do you want to. 01:04.42 S_ Granarius We we won't get treated by your donkey impersonation this time or or Shrek rather but um, yes donkeys I call this on myself. Um, so yeah, donkeys um echoles attinus. Um. 01:14.28 ALEX Donkey almost. 01:23.93 S_ Granarius I mean as Alex mentioned like we already talked about them I think on them we had an episode that covered donkeys and camels. Um the um while I think ah think with this customer in a case study before like talking about italian donkeys specifically. 01:30.13 ALEX Yes. 01:43.36 S_ Granarius I guess donkeys did not originate in italy um, unsurprisingly they do in fact, des descend from the african wild ass. Um, but they were likely to be sort of introduced by the greeks sort of in their sort of first so waver colonization and then the romans throughout their empire. Um. As a fair few breeds of donkeys um, I mean there's a few that originate from Sicily specifically so you have the I musan or the sicilian grey um berelia think there's a lot of breeds at this stage as well as sort of various crosses. Well guess which I guess. Of are they quite specious in their own right? like mules. 02:25.45 ALEX Kind of they're one of those kind of I think that's why we talked about them in that specific up so they were that in between kind of stage and that. 02:33.88 S_ Granarius Well because the thing like I guess a definition of the species technically will be like um but they produce fertile offspring while mules are not fertile So anyway mules are a thing. 02:43.40 ALEX Um, yeah, true. 02:53.33 S_ Granarius Theyre there. But of course you know like being that both Donkeys and horses comes from from the same genus echoes I mean they do interbreed. Um, but yeah, the the offering is not fertile and I've just gone down this ah fertile Foot Mule Fertility Rabbit hole. 03:10.80 ALEX Come back, Come back. 03:12.62 S_ Granarius Lonely dig out of um I mean donkeys in like normally you know you'd associateciate them sort of more with the Mediterranean and um North African Landscapes and that is indeed a thing where you do find the bulk of the donkeys but. They are sort of used as beasts of burden elsewhere. Just maybe not so much in Britain. There's not something like you know it's a species you're familiar with but you don't necessarily encounter too much but they are sort of quite hardy animals suited to sort of fairly harsh terrains. Um. 03:36.85 ALEX Yes. 03:46.67 S_ Granarius And again since they do share the same genus with um Horse with the horse seeing echoes both of them. Um, there is an argument to be made over So how much horse. Well how much many Donkeys were actually misidentified as horse is archaeological analysis because. 04:01.86 ALEX In. 04:06.14 S_ Granarius And no fairness if you're looking at an assemblage and you see sort of like you know a horse shape so teia. The first thing that pops to mind is now oh I should take some measurements and might be donkey. Oh they're definitely not in British Zoo archaeology and if you're working in Greece then you know maybe I have a good look to make sure that it's. 04:19.18 ALEX No. 04:25.66 S_ Granarius Horse Andop Donkey Um, and as you'd expect I don't think it's all too easy to differentiate between horses and Donkeys because I think the morphhologies are mostly related to the cranium. So the neck they do tend to have so a different number of vertebra. 04:30.40 ALEX A. 04:38.70 ALEX And. 04:43.48 S_ Granarius But again unless you got the whole Skeleton doesn't really matter too much and I believe they all suffer so different eruption stages for the titian which again really be useful so much to a point. 04:50.90 ALEX Um, I Yeah I mean you know there are differences but realistically unless you have a whole Skeleton. It's a bit of a mixed bag and again I think for you know, specifically speaking from the U k. Perspective for the most part if you see something that looks like a horse. It's probably a horse it just again depending on the context depending on what you're dealing with you know, but I don't think I've ever run across Donkey remains before alone. It could have been donkey and I could have. Misidentifieded a whole slew of bones in that case. 05:30.40 S_ Granarius I mean to refer like a kowsy caves you did have like a Noah's ark of animals. So why not a donkey could do like ah some further like maybe another ph d the lost donkey of cowsey caves. 05:34.97 ALEX This is true. This is true. Yeah. Ah I love my ph d so much I definitely do want to do a second one moving on a bit I mean again, different species. But. 05:46.80 S_ Granarius All over again. 05:56.64 ALEX Morphologically speaking not that much different we are talking about reindeer. Do want to take a stab at the yeah see I can't it doesn't sound the same you make it sing Savona I Do not. 06:02.59 S_ Granarius Um I doing um Ranjiferta Aroundus. So. 06:15.77 ALEX So this one's a bit of a stretch I guess they're technically semi domesticticated as reindeer herding is part of the subsistence strategies of many eurasian indigenous people including the sami of Satmi. The use of reindeer actually varies depending on the culture but they have been known to be useful as draft animals as well as use for their milk specifically among the Sami Reindeer herding is managed through what they refer to as a stga which is a traditional form of cooperative community literally. It translates to reindeer pastoral district. Yeah. 06:53.56 S_ Granarius Now guess like anatomy wise for the reindeer I mean the 1 thing that um, got me like just looking at it was the the size of the nasal cavity on the skull and that's like 1 of the first like striking thing look it might be me like very large nasal cavity. 07:03.69 ALEX Is. 07:13.27 S_ Granarius Um, also interestingly enough, um a reindeer is the only servant where both sexes have antler. Um, which also you know they're a bit strange because you know they have beams sort of as you see like you know like the the long sort tuular beams that you'd see like on a red deer. 07:19.28 ALEX Yeah. 07:32.98 S_ Granarius But they also have sort of par made brow tines. So the par mas. Um, well they say that that's the the real um challenge of the podcast they're trying to trying to explain something as visual as ah, the anatomy of Aler. Um. 07:34.73 ALEX Yeah. 07:43.15 ALEX Ah. 07:51.89 S_ Granarius But you know like on a fallow dear maybe like a lot of people know the fallow de like the an for a sort of Parmate. It's it's flat I go say and it gets wobbly at the end. Um it' not quite the right way of putting it. Um may so they have this so this tubular beams and then they sort of. Go into like a parmate shape at the brow times facing forward and the one sort of right at the top. 08:17.76 ALEX Yeah, just take our word for it. 08:20.90 S_ Granarius Yeah, just just just just look up a photo honest triple. 08:24.51 ALEX But yeah, the Reinde are very interesting I know really I knew about Reindeer hering. But I know really considered that they were semi domesticstic cated I Guess they're technically managed herds which is in that weird kind of wobbly stage between. Proper proper domestication and say wild Species. You know. 08:46.15 S_ Granarius Yeah, guess they'll probably become the westicaated in time. 08:51.90 ALEX Maybe we'll see there's different approaches to kind of maintaining these herds. So I guess it it really just depends but moving back to another species that we have covered in the past and is. Definitely Domesticated. You're talking about the simple, the humble goat which I know we have talked about before especially as goats are mostly known throughout zoo archeological circles as being a big pain. 09:17.20 S_ Granarius Capra ircus. 09:27.63 ALEX Because it's very difficult at times to differentiate between sheep and goats. Oh yeah. 09:31.87 S_ Granarius Good old over capri everywhere. So I mean unless you have like do fair that there are some morphological differences where you'd be able to tell with visual inspection but usually you just need a good pair of calipers and just just go for it. 09:47.31 ALEX Yeah, so fun. 09:51.10 S_ Granarius Which again chances are in Britain while you do find goats I'll mostly be sheep if you see something that looks like a sheep probably a sheep. 09:58.69 ALEX Exactly yeah, but similar to what we're talking about with donkeys there are a wide variety of breeds of goats and I guess probably the most famous european variation at least when I think of you know if you if you ask me to name at least 1 breed of goat this is probably the only goat I could think of is the alpine goat which unsurprisingly originates from the french alps. 10:22.99 S_ Granarius Okay. Well, it could have been any of the alps then have to be the French ones. So. 10:33.64 ALEX Oho Well take it up with the French I guess I don't know so they are mostly famous I guess for being heavy bookers they which is a horrible turn of phrase but it's the one I came across they are specifically Brad for. 10:44.72 S_ Granarius Yes. 10:50.56 ALEX Being heavy milkers and they're thus known as one of the premier braids for goat milk to thus matter manufacture into other dairy products and you know although a lot of this podcast. Obviously. We're discussing domestication from an archeological perspective. It's really interesting to kind of get a more modern example of how humans kind of continue this process of influencing. You know the the species themselves through breeding. 11:23.93 S_ Granarius Next I guess something that would have been done in the past as well because given depending on the types sort of settlement and their economy. They would have ved towards sort of 1 use as opposed to the other so like a settlement and somewhere in Europe may have preferred sort of keeping goats for meat. 11:40.84 ALEX Yeah. 11:43.62 S_ Granarius So they would have been bred in a way that they would ah accumulate sort of like the largest amount of meat and the shorter amount of time I mean we still do it again like not so much in Britain because goat meat isnt really much of a thing but. 11:50.63 ALEX 6 um, speaking of meat. Our next species is the common pheasant. 12:00.90 S_ Granarius Yeah, meet. 12:09.86 S_ Granarius Fasianus colcius. 12:10.15 ALEX There you go I will they wantnna try you if you weren't you didn't want to do it called Cook use. There's someone who speaks latin who is furious at us. 12:17.55 S_ Granarius Onchios conicus. 12:26.31 S_ Granarius Aserite even if you've not not heard him today. Please sir as usual redirect all the hate mail to Tristan. 12:35.13 ALEX Another're Technically semi domesticated species. The common phsic was actually native to some European areas such as the balkans but introduced widely across the continent over time likely by let's all say it at the same time. 12:49.66 S_ Granarius The romans. 12:50.86 ALEX The Romans Yes, the Romans Thanks a lot. So the evidence of pheasant actually seems to decline Post-roman period but rises again the Medieval period as it likely became very popular as hunting game among those of high status again A very. Similar kind of Thread. We're seeing with the Romans bringing in something and then the medieval high mighties deciding that they also want that something. 13:16.48 S_ Granarius Yeah, like I mean it is this is it says sort of in a very generic way the Medieval period but I bet it was the Normans because it's always the same trend like the the Romans bring them over but they will make it just like Italy La La and then they go away and then the Normans come and they do exactly the same thing. 13:23.20 ALEX Proper. 13:32.40 ALEX Wow Just calling out the Normans apologies to any Norman podcast listeners. 13:39.38 S_ Granarius That in Norman time travellers. 13:43.24 ALEX And we're going to continue with this bird theme for our last species that we'll talk about which is weirdly enough even though we are talking about Europe we're going to talk about the canadian goose. 13:58.93 S_ Granarius I Mean what? why not? um, they'll be Brand Ta Andna densis. 14:04.97 ALEX So It's not really dev domesticated but I'm go be honest and did run out of my interesting ideas beyond the species you already talked about I mean I didn't think anyone really wanted to hear us talk a bit more about cows or sheep. Or any of those other species I mean is really like like cow sheep and Pig isn't that. Yeah so I wanted to keep it fresh. Keep it interesting. This is a miniseries and you know people want to hear the good hot takes so. 14:24.14 S_ Granarius Yeah. 14:37.89 ALEX And decided to talk about canadian goose because that's kind of funny to talk about in an episode about Europe. So yes, they are not really domesticated but they are not entirely wild either again that weird kind of wobbly stage in between technically they're. Semi feral or another kind of phrase I've seen thrown around is naturalized feral. And yeah, I've never actually heard that phrase but I kind of get what they mean they were you know naturalized into the environment and are kind of just. 15:02.41 S_ Granarius Um. 15:14.91 ALEX Farrow running about whatever but even on the canadian they actually have a very weird introduction story into Europe obviously Canadian Goose have always had kind of access to parts of Northern Europe due to their migration patterns but gee were actually. Physically introduced as well and it's mostly due to weird royal business. So yes, the the high statuss people need to have their their species wherever they want and weirdly enough this happened in 2 different places. So. 15:40.20 S_ Granarius Trend number 4 true. 15:53.50 ALEX In the U K Canadian Geese were actually introduced to King James a second to a had to he a water foul collection. Yes, he had a specifically a waterf foul collection during the late seventeenth century. Okay, weird right. Also in the seventeenth century King Louis the ah eleventh. Yeah I almost said the ninth but now it was the eleventh in France as a present from one of his explorers in North America Samuel De Champlain 16:16.88 S_ Granarius The leveled. Yes. 16:32.17 ALEX He also brought over canadian gees in the earlier part of the seventeenth century now they do not say but I would not put it past King Louis to also have a waterfowl collection. 16:36.96 S_ Granarius Was that also part of his water-fowl collection. 16:50.71 ALEX But. 16:50.89 S_ Granarius That's sorry, just really take up. Don't know why I'm just picturing someone going out. You want to come back to my place and look at my waterfowl collection. Just. 16:59.14 ALEX It's the fact that they specifically say waterfowl collection which kind of implies The idea that he had a massive bird collection and was specifically like oh these are my my covids and corvids and then these are my my waterfowl and then these are my my. 17:10.44 S_ Granarius The check. 17:16.60 ALEX Domestic its or whatever like what a weirdo I'm sorry hot take but what a weirdo anyway, after that guess what they're everywhere now. So thanks, a lot to King Jamess and King Louis yeah thanks 17:31.82 S_ Granarius But the given us the goose species. We never thought we needed. 17:35.99 ALEX Yeah, that's that's great as we ruminate about how royalty has single handedly changed the kind of species composition of this continent. We will take a break and we will come back with our case studies.