00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the third and final segment of the archeotech podcast episode one seventy five and I'm talking to Brian Fritz about his mechanized ah doing mechanized archeology using his paleo digger and the associated software now. 1 thing I saw in 1 of the Youtube videos and things change pretty rapidly when you're innovating is that it was too cold at one point to actually use the electronic portion of the digger. Obviously the machine was still able to dig and you're able to screen that probably works in almost any temperature but the electronics as people probably know if they're not. I guess insulated or even internally heated well enough you know electricity just tends to not work the colder you get so those screens those liquid crystal displays and other things that you use you know tend to have a problem with those colder temperatures. So have you overcome some of that yet. Um with some modifications to your system. 00:51.56 Brian Well after the project. Well first it was this was in the second week of January and it was pretty cold these we were along the susqueana river in Pennsylvania and the river froze over while we were there. Yeah, so it was. 00:57.99 archpodnet Um, yeah. 01:07.33 archpodnet Oh my god. 01:11.46 Brian Pretty cold. Um I thought at the time that it was the temperatures that were the problem and it still may have been but I I tried it later a few weeks later in cold weather and I didn't have the problem So I'm thinking maybe I might have rf interference So I'm going to have to put some ah rf filters into the circuitry. 01:21.68 archpodnet Here. 01:28.90 archpodnet Okay I wonder where that I wonder where the rf would have come from. Do you think? what's internally within the other systems you have there or like like overhead power lines or something. 01:30.77 Brian And Steve that eliminates the problem. So I don't have that completely solved. Yeah. 01:41.31 Brian We were right along state route 3 22 a very busy highway four lane highway and there was all kinds of businesses. There was a truck stop and other businesses and there just might have been something going on there radio wise. 01:46.67 archpodnet Um, yeah, um. 01:55.79 archpodnet Okay, okay, so given your experience with this so far and you've had some some pretty good successes with this where what's the roadmap for this paleo Digger system. 01:59.16 Brian I Don't know. 02:11.24 archpodnet Look like what do you want to? What do you want to change next. What do you want to add to it what kind of feature sets are you looking to to increase if you were it's the blank question blank check question right? Brian like if you were given a million dollars what would you do with this. 02:21.78 Brian Well I I follow what's called the lean startup method. It's the idea that you're using a system of validated learning. So every time we take the machine out. It's like an experiment. We have a set of hypotheses that we're gonna attest. It's it's. 02:25.26 archpodnet Yeah. 02:34.78 archpodnet Ah. 02:41.35 Brian Basically trying to tune the the technical develop machine to its actual potential market. Um, so following this method. What I try to do is devise a business model then I'm trying to. Um, design the machine to fit that business model so prior to the last project. My thinking was that most of the archaeological testing would be less than three meters along our rivers and here at least in Pennsylvania and geez it turns out my first client wanted to go at least three and a half meters or deeper. So I had to scramble to redesign the machine to actually go deeper and I ended up with with a capacity to go seven meters so this is an example of it you you design the core features and build that and get it into the market as quickly as possible instead of. 03:25.92 archpodnet Nice. 03:38.56 Brian Trying to build every little feature and then miss the Mark you try to iterate as you go so now what I'm what I'm wondering now do I need to start thinking about building the machine to be more efficient at these deeper levels instead of the shower shallower depths. 03:40.22 archpodnet A. 03:53.63 archpodnet And calf. 03:55.90 Brian So that's what I'm thinking about right now and I need to get it a little more experience with so on some projects to see how this is gonna play out and that that will affect my design design decisions. 04:04.50 archpodnet Okay, yeah, for sure and how are you planning to monetize this you plan on building out these systems or initially consulting and and basically bringing your equipment on to a ah project site and using it that way. 04:20.95 Brian The the idea of building it and selling it as a machine or as a product I think probably isn't the way to go because it's a very limited market and let's be honest, There's some archeology firms out there that they're pretty stingy on buying equipment for their crews. 04:28.80 archpodnet Ah. 04:37.48 archpodnet Oh no say it didn't so yeah, right? yeah. 04:39.70 Brian And I don't think they're going to spend $100000 or more on a machine like this ah probably wouldn't stop at that price. So my thinking is to instead of bidding on contracts and compete against the crm firms out there. Offered as a service to these firms and some strategic partners with them and whenever whenever they get a project where it requires the deep testing like this pen dot project I was just on the Pennsylvania department of transportation I was hired by the an archeology firm who had to contract and i. 04:57.66 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:16.76 Brian Then I would go out and I would utilize their existing crew. So they're they're not cut out of the process and then it's kind of a partnership and that Bret that eliminates some of the need for wall shoring and and the expensive part of deep testing by hand and. 05:22.23 archpodnet Okay. 05:32.70 archpodnet Um. 05:34.79 Brian Placing that with something that's more safe. You're not with my machine. You're not sitting someone down in that deep trench. 05:39.92 archpodnet Right? And that's key right? I mean you were mentioning. You know one by ones and and shoing after five feet I mean I've seen plenty of you know excavation units going down well past what osha would call safe as far asoring goes. So yeah, anytime you can give them a tool that will. Just inherently be safer is actually a pretty good idea. Um I was also thinking. Well first off I'm thinking yes contracting your services to Crm firms at a rate that you know has to compete with doing it by hand you can't I've I've got direct experience with that in the digital space that I'm in and saying well you can't just tell them. Hey this is just better data and more efficient. It has to be able to directly compete finance-wise with what they're doing now right? It has to be it has to meet or exceed you know whatever they're doing as far as be cheaper. Um, but also be better, but then also possibly partnering with. Other firms that are doing similar things and just adding it to their toolset and and what I mean by that is I was thinking of ah a friend of mine Dan Bigman he runs bigman geophysical and I think they're still based out of Georgia but they work all over the world. Basically they do a lot of groundfriending trading radar and you know other um, other geophysical. Methods and this seems like the kind of thing that they might just like add to their list of offerings. You know what? I mean so almost like franchising out your equipment to places that do contract this out because you would be hard pressed from Pennsylvania to contract this out to somebody in say you know. South Carolina or Texas or something like that. You'd be driving all over the country. So um, interesting. Yeah. 07:15.86 Brian Well, that's something I would consider though that's because there aren't there isn't enough work in Pennsylvania for deep testing to just you know survive on that I would because my idea is to go to other states. That's that's kind of what my plan is. 07:23.48 archpodnet Sure. 07:30.34 archpodnet Yeah I remember doing some hand augur testing in South Carolina 1 time and we were going down 4 or five meters and still finding stuff. So there's definitely deep testing potential down there. Yeah, um, all right? so. I mean aside from all that I mean where where do you want to take this business. Um, you know where where would you see this in 10 years for example 07:56.52 Brian Well um, ah, really would like to the idea is to generate enough work that I can keep keep on iterating and improving the technology I think that's really important I could see already ah thinking ahead to. 08:07.30 archpodnet Sure. 08:16.27 Brian Newer versions of this were that are built stronger and lighter maybe have an actual engineering study done to make some improvements I can take the engineering so far and then I'm I'm limited on that end of it but having a formal engineering study done. 08:19.13 archpodnet Oh. 08:29.59 archpodnet So right. 08:35.30 Brian And maybe improve the design and keep improving it to the point where it becomes a profitable profitable business and then also being able to block aside set aside a certain block of time each year to do projects for nonprofits and archaeological groups that. 08:50.48 archpodnet Ah. 08:54.97 Brian Do you know more pure research types of things through the state societies and local chapters. 08:59.73 archpodnet Okay, nice. Have you presented on any of this at any local conferences or national conferences at all. 09:08.34 Brian Yes I presented at the society for Pennsylvania archeology annual meeting and I'll be be presenting again. This April at that meeting and then at the eastern state's archaeological federation conference in november. 09:25.00 archpodnet Okay. 09:27.73 Brian I present that I've published in this Pennsylvania's the state journal here in Pennsylvania and then my you know my Youtube channel or archeology x I have a number of videos there on on using this machine. 09:32.60 archpodnet Um. 09:38.10 archpodnet Um, yeah. Yeah,, let's talk about that I only watched a couple of the videos on the machine. What do you plan to do with that channel. Overall what's your goal with that. 09:51.37 Brian Well when you're doing this lean startup method model of developing a new product. You really don't you're you're trying to find a business model and in order to test your idea you need you need early Adopters you need clients to put it in front of them and. 10:07.18 archpodnet Um. 10:10.94 Brian Try it so instead of developing the product in secret The idea is to be completely open with it and my videos basically lay out the whole idea how I came about the idea and how I progress through the development of it and how it works. 10:18.20 archpodnet Yeah. 10:30.10 Brian Um I did file a patent application and ultimately decided to a public domain that application. So now it's you know there's no point in keeping this secret I'd like to like the technology to grow and Archeology X is the way to get this. 10:40.79 archpodnet That yeah. 10:49.38 Brian Out into the public and out into the crm um firms and particularly the the regulators. The the folks who actually review the archaeology projects that we do in Crm it's it's kind of difficult to change the status quo especially with a disruptive technology. Um. 11:06.39 archpodnet Yeah, yes, yes. 11:09.26 Brian 1 of the problems I run into is a client might be interested in using a machine but because it's not written into the standard methods in a state you would have to submit the method for review before applying it and the clients they're almost always in a. Major hurry. They don't want to wait for a 30 day review period. So they'd rather move ahead with the standard methods and push through with that than try something new and wait for that review approval. So that's one of the hurdles I've run it I run into with the regulatory. So bodies. 11:39.85 archpodnet No. Yeah I hear you that's a pretty common problem with lots of different things dealing with that. Um I work with a company. We mentioned lots of times on this show called wild note and I mean dealing with regulatory. Institutions basically and you know making good exports and forms like we do to to actually match up with that is not as simple as it would sound so we we feel your pain on that. Um all right? Well I think ah you know I want one last question on the Archeology X Channel. You named it Archeology X and I was I was curious about that. It almost sounds like an experimental archeology kind of thing or maybe archaeology X factor like you know out there crazy things. What other stuff. Do You think you want to put on that channel if you had time to just produce videos and do things. 12:30.83 Brian Well I I called it archeology x kind of following after Spacex and the x prize and the idea behind that is x in algebra is the unknown quantity. It's the problem to solve. 12:36.69 archpodnet So nice. 12:44.89 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:48.22 Brian That's what the X represents you're trying something new disruptive. But I I design I launched the channel to not only follow the paleo Digger machine but I would like to also do a segment a series of videos that I'll call digging deeper which you'll look at. Different sites and different projects interviews that kind of thing and also doing archeology I Plan to do a series of videos on this.. Basically how do you lay out 1 by 1 So. What's the math behind it. How do you map a rock shelter in the field. Ah, these kind of things that often get overlooked in a field school because the field schools. They just don't have time to go through all these different kind of techniques that we often use in a crm's survey. 13:27.60 archpodnet Yeah. 13:34.38 archpodnet You yeah, that is true that is true. Well I'm looking forward to all the other things coming out on that I've subscribed to the channel of course with my own Youtube account and looking forward to what you got coming out there also really looking forward to seeing how the paleo digger. Evolves over through time as you use it and I hope you get more c or m firms on board to do some real world testing with this that should be pretty interesting. Yeah. 13:57.10 Brian Yes, what I'm really after is those early sites the first american sites the clovis and pre clovis that's what ah we really want to dig into. 14:06.79 archpodnet Yeah, no, and so to speak there. You go all right? Brian well thanks a lot for coming on and and I tell you what I'd love to have you back if you have any more updates or or want to you know. Talk about new things. This thing is doing or has found and you know like I'm really interested in stuff that maybe wouldn't have been found otherwise that would be really cool. So when yeah man when that happens just ah, contact us and we'll we'll have you back on the show all right. 14:26.55 Brian Yes, certainly. 14:33.10 Brian Okay, yeah, we'll do thanks for having me. 14:39.18 archpodnet Thank you Brian and hopefully I've got another interviewer too coming up this month for all our listeners and Paul will be back at the end of end of March early April I can't remember exactly when and we'll we'll be sure to update you on his Iraq travels and all the things he did over there. So. Be sure to check that out and check out our sponsors that you heard in this show and that are sitting in your show notes right now. Zencastr's been a really big supporter of us for the last few months and we want to keep that going. So if you want to start your own podcast. Check out the Zencastr links in the show and there's ah discount codes down there and we hope that we can bring more people to this great platform. So with that. I'll sign off and we will see you next week