00:00.26 archpodnet Welcome back to the Archaeotech podcast our final segment and we are talking about robotics and archeology and Daniel a couple of things that you said last segment really had me thinking here but I got to backtrack and make sure make sure that we cover everything. So. We. We've talked about a number of things you know regarding the you know I guess I guess shape and size and capabilities of certain robots. But what what specific tasks. Do you see early robots in this field actually doing right? Um, you know I'm thinking. Have everything from like you mentioned lab work So There's analytical things that can be done in lab work. There's There's just straight up digging and surveying and and and all kinds of things we do in the field like what specific task? Do you see the first ones that a robot could possibly take over. 00:51.55 Daniel Carvalho Ah, okay, the first ones and I think that it's being made today. It's artacted identification on the lab. That's the main thing that it's being produced today. 01:00.46 archpodnet For sure. Yeah. 01:10.40 Daniel Carvalho What I wanted to see more is structures on the field I would like to see more drones utilizing computer vision. So when I have a drone and surveying a site. 01:22.90 archpodnet And. 01:30.70 Daniel Carvalho I Would like it to make assumptions of ah how the terrain behaves um of what kind of chronological Periods may be there and what kind of structures he can be seeing. 01:43.38 archpodnet Even. 01:49.61 archpodnet Um. 01:49.47 Daniel Carvalho From a different view of ours. Um I think that I want I really wanted to to see more of that because that is not that art everyone or almost everyone has a drone today. 02:05.62 archpodnet Yeah. 02:07.48 Daniel Carvalho And they are really really ah cheap and they are going to be even Sheepr as time end time go on and to to build the the component the components that bring life to. To a drone in terms of computer vision is is not that hard and it's it's going to be much cheaper than lidar for example and and may it doesn't produce the same results in it but we can make a lot. 02:30.25 archpodnet No. 02:36.70 archpodnet Oh yeah. 02:47.33 archpodnet It it would be ah that just on drones real quick. It would be really cool because I mean I've programmed drones and I think Paul's doing that right now in Iraq. But I've programmed drones to say you know, look at a look at a certain you know area. 02:47.10 Daniel Carvalho Of data with that and I I wanted Yes is. 03:06.38 archpodnet And then run this path across this area and then it just comes back but all it's doing is taking pictures. It would be super cool if it could identify something while it's doing that and market as a target that it wants to go back to or stop in in the process. And say you know what I think I'm going to slow down and take some better pictures of this thing and analyze it a little better and maybe even process the photogrammetric you know structure that it could build like onboard and then make some assumptions like you said about you know hey I think I think we might have something here. And I took a little extra data about it. So Let's see what we think but that that seems like we're so close to that doesn't it. 03:42.99 Daniel Carvalho We are all are already already there and we just need to teach it. Um, ah that's the main thing we have. We have all the that we need in our hands. 03:46.28 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:58.26 archpodnet Ah. 04:01.15 Daniel Carvalho The the time that we need to learn these these things is not is not a lot almost any archeologist today knows about photogrammetry if even if. 04:15.58 archpodnet And. 04:19.91 Daniel Carvalho Somebody can't transform some data into photogrammity we can understand it and with drones is even simpler. It's just thinking ah about this question. 04:37.34 archpodnet Ah. 04:39.23 Daniel Carvalho How can I tell to someone Ah, someone being a drone in this case to identify a certain thing. This is a task that archaeologists do all the time and we need to communicate that. 04:46.90 archpodnet Brett. 04:59.20 Daniel Carvalho Not only to humans but to robots and to tools like drones so they can help us build more complex ah theories about the past I think that is the most. Um. 05:02.81 archpodnet Brett. 05:12.49 archpodnet Right. 05:17.42 Daniel Carvalho Useful thing that we can do regards technology in archeology. It's to teach it to help us make better assumptions about the past and archeology. 05:30.20 archpodnet Okay, I've got a question about that that I'll save towards the end but I want to step back 1 more time to something else. You said in segment two because I couldn't let this go you mentioned talking about virtual reality and how you know we need to incorporate more virtual reality and you did say some things that. I have thought about before as well and I know others as as well too using virtual reality to not only like train and and and being able to see and interact with data and and sites and and you know things in a different way that's nondestructive because it is virtual reality and if we can replicate there then we could do things that we wouldn't be able to do in real life. But what about like a virtual reality I mean maybe I've seen the matrix too many times but like a virtual reality control of the field robots. You know what? I mean like you're you're seeing. 06:13.47 Daniel Carvalho She is. 06:23.90 archpodnet You're you're kind of seeing through their eyes but their eyes are building a world around you and you're you're wearing a headset and you're sitting in the comforts of your your safe comfortable office where you don't have the dangers sometimes of weather and being in the field and and other things that can happen I've worked I've mentioned it on this podcast before I worked on a. Navy base in California where there were unexploded ordinance and bombs and missiles all over the place and rattle snakes and all kinds of things and you know I mean we want to do the archeology but we want to be safe while we're doing it so this is a really good way to do that but have you. Is there talk in this field about using virtual or augmented reality to actually control and I don't know if they'd even be robots at that point because if you're driving them then they're just vehicles right? But it's some sort of combination. 07:05.43 Daniel Carvalho Yes, ah absolutely. Um, we don't need virtual reality to do that We can do it without it. But I think it's It's best to build. 07:23.42 archpodnet In here. 07:23.34 Daniel Carvalho An entire environment to to because to archae's Context. It's base alert to what to to everything with that. We do. So I think to have something that can build. And environment at the same time that is excavating digging recording. It's going to be phenomenal. Um, if it is still a robot I think he has because we need to think about this as. 07:45.64 archpodnet Um. Um, yeah. 08:01.45 Daniel Carvalho Um, again, an eyebrid ah because it's not an autonomous vague vehicle. It can be in some tasks but we we don't want to to erase the. Human factor here on the Contrary. We want to emphasize it so to have for example in subaquatic archeology and an autonomous vehicle that can dive to a certain depth and. 08:36.65 archpodnet Ah. 08:38.46 Daniel Carvalho Then we enter on what the and what the room the robot is doing and we can manipulate it and and receive data from him we we are at that moment now who. 08:57.28 archpodnet Um, correct. But. 08:56.58 Daniel Carvalho We have the technology to do it like a famous film says we have the technology to to make all of these things happen I think we just need a little more capacity. On our side to understand that technology is not a menace to archaeology in terms of it destroying jobs for example or reducing archaeologists to a mere. 09:25.32 archpodnet Me. 09:33.13 Daniel Carvalho Observers of robots I think the other way around I think technology can elevate us truly and I think if we can automate some of the tasks that we do. We can. Bring so much more to the table in scientific terms and discoveries and theories. Um by working with robots and technology in general. So yeah, virtual reality is can be used that way and used in countless other ways we can. Dig the same site hundreds of times and that for me is really really interesting how we can make different to. 10:11.70 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:23.95 Daniel Carvalho Theories about the same site about the same data that is never destroyed that that kind of experience needs to be made more often I think. 10:27.88 archpodnet In here. 10:36.81 archpodnet Yeah I think ah something that that made me think of was you know when we're often doing an excavation. The only photographs we will often take in normal practice is maybe ah the first photograph of a level before we start digging it in ah in say a one meter by one Meter square or something. And then we'll take ah a photograph of the last when we get down ten centimeters or or whatever that is and we might take a photograph of a profile or a picture if we find that but if we were able to have you know something recording everything as we go down and if a robot were doing this excavation. It would be able to you know record. As it's doing this sort of thing. Everything that's happening then we could bring that into something like virtual reality and we could kind of replay the excavation from either a training standpoint you know, having students replay the excavation. So we know exactly where everything is and they can just excavate virtually and or even from a a standpoint of. 11:28.43 Daniel Carvalho Equal. 11:35.19 archpodnet Maybe we missed something the first time around you know what? I mean that that might be found later on. Maybe we we should have exavated something in 1 way but we did it in another way and and we just missed something. So I think that's I think that's really cool and you you alluded to something that I was going to bring up as one of my last questions but I kind of want to. Talk about a little more What do you actually say to people especially archaeologists that say robots are going to take our jobs because I personally understand that they would be an augmentation to what we're doing they would free us up to do the the more analytical the more scientific tasks and. Kind of take a little bit of the mundane work away from it which is admittedly some people just like that kind of work. Um, but as scientists I feel like it would allow us to be better scientists. But what what kind of arguments. Do you make for people that say you know hey you're just you're just taking our jobs and giving them to robots. 12:27.10 Daniel Carvalho The first argument is simple and it's a very crude one financially. It's not viable to substitute archaeologists for robots and the cost of a robot. 12:42.27 archpodnet Ah, okay. Ah. 12:46.36 Daniel Carvalho It's too high. Ah for ah, a human in other areas we are seeing that humans are being replaced but that is specific to to the conditions and. 13:03.56 archpodnet Um. 13:04.91 Daniel Carvalho To the functions that are being augmented and being made better for example in where air warehouses. We. We don't need humans anymore because we have little robots that go to precise places that don't sleep that do not need to rebel for better work conditions and some jobs are. Disappearing and some jobs have already disappeared but that depends greatly on what the jobs do and what the jobs produce we archeologisties produce a kind of knowledge that financially is not very. Um, appeliative to big big corporations. Big data big governmental issues in terms of finance I say it again not in terms of. Heritage because what we do is of Paramount importance in my view in heritage in memory in engaging with communities about their identity their past but financially it's not that great of a deal. 14:27.29 archpodnet Music. 14:38.67 Daniel Carvalho The second argument that I always make is that this is not a a debate of replacement. This is a debate to make better tools and the microscope did not replace. Any scientist. Ah, it only opened the door to more science and we don't need to fear a scientific developments on technology. 15:04.68 archpodnet Me. 15:17.30 Daniel Carvalho That goes even further helping science I think it's a paradox. Why should we fear? ah that kind of technology if we can do better science and understand better. The world we live in I don't think I don't think it makes sense and but I do understand the fear. Um I don't want to replace Archaeologists I truly want to help them to be a better version of what we are now I think. 15:44.69 archpodnet Yeah. 15:53.11 Daniel Carvalho The way. Ah, can only be that I want the robots that I make to be tools and to help everyone that needs it and and you you ask me on the other segment I want. These robots or these databases to be accessible for everyone and maybe the physical robots won't be because they are prototypes and but the the databases must be free to everyone. 16:18.70 archpodnet Front. 16:29.29 archpodnet Sure. 16:31.29 Daniel Carvalho Because it it doesn't make sense to build something in my view that helps Discovery if common archaeologists can't use it. We can't simply and. Make it So a tool that only certain people can Utilize. We need to make it open for everyone so that everyone can share their opinion and engage with the. Research of everyone else I think of it as a connected world a truly connected world and robots can help us build it. 17:12.61 archpodnet In. Well said? Well I think with that I mean that that is that I've been thinking about some of this stuff for a while now and that is I mean that is right in line and I think I think you've got it spot on how the the Microsoft Microscope didn't replace the scientists had just made better scientists. 17:35.67 Daniel Carvalho This is. 17:37.17 archpodnet I think I think with archeological data. There's constant conversations about how we have so much data that's already been collected right? So while we have to go out and do field projects I'm a sir m archeologist in the United States of course and. Well we have to go out and do field projects because there's development and there's things that is prompting these these digs. It's just adding to this data set that we already haven't fully and adequately analyzed. So if we can if we can either use robots to either a. Do the do the field work and and collect the data while we're doing more analysis and and and really doing the theorizing and the writing of reports and things like that or you know at the same time having more analysis that's able to be done on these archive collections that we have that really haven't been thoroughly studied either way the assistants. Would be useful having having assistance in that area from ah from a tireless you know workforce that is hyper intelligent and can do things and and can do it without you know, questioning or complaint would be phenomenal to aid in the science and to just better. We can do and and increase what we can do so hundred percent on board with this well Daniel thanks for coming on and I hope that we can certainly talk to you as your research develops and you know new things come out and and you want to come back on the show and talk about them hey if there's if there's something you. Read you go to a conference about new developments in in robotics and ai and stuff that you can think and have help archeology give us a send us an email and and come on the show and let's talk about it. We love we love just having the conversation about these kind of things and I think our audiences like it as well. 19:16.92 Daniel Carvalho Shu. Thank you very much. 19:22.24 archpodnet All right? Well with that. Thank you Daniel and we will be back next time hopefully with Paul this time if he's recovered from his five weeks in in Iraq we'll see all right. Thanks a lot and we'll see in two weeks