00:00.31 archpodnet All right welcome to the archeo tech podcast everybody Paul how's it going. 00:06.10 Paul It's going pretty good I've been keeping myself busy doing some crm here in the northeast not actually field work just artifact processing but in discussions with the ah the owner of the company that I was working For. He wanted me to do some photogrammetry experiments. Um. He had a number of pictures that he took like 90 plus of these colonial period Priviyes that they' had excavated. You know I was processing the ah the materials from and and so we generated Photographgram tree structure promotion models around those and then I experimented a lot in my backyard with my flower boxes. 00:28.11 archpodnet Um. 00:42.30 Paul Um, raised beds rather to see you know how many pictures what different kinds of cameras which different software of different open source packages and and in the end I got what I think is a decent workflow. 00:46.54 archpodnet Ah. 00:55.44 Paul Um, using Web Odm and and a handheld digital camera and a pole for some ah up above shots and so you know that was fun to actually be given a project like that that was somewhat open-ended. But also I learned a lot from um and then could report that back to him some ideas about best practices. 01:12.36 archpodnet So you would you say you're enjoying what some would call retirement. 01:16.82 Paul Um, yeah I yeah I am most definitely enjoying I finished up my yeah I got my computer program that I've talked about off and on um to a point that I just published it today on github. 01:32.15 archpodnet Um, yeah. 01:33.72 Paul Ah, so we'll have the links for that. That's ah total station surveying software and I used the total station with my software and I'm sure you can hear my dog barking in the background now. Ah. 01:44.65 archpodnet Yeah, indeed. So. 01:46.95 Paul I used my total station with my software in order to map in the ground control points that I was using for the for the photogrammetry test. So it was nice. The you know confluence of these different things that I've been doing all coming together and then you know in in a couple weeks I'm probably going to be back off in the field in the Middle East again so 01:57.79 archpodnet Yeah. 02:05.12 archpodnet Awesome there you go there, you go sounds sounds like you're keeping busy that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, well we just got back from two weeks down in Mexico Cabos and Lucas we we went down there just to um I wouldn't say. 02:06.73 Paul We'll see how that works. Ah. 02:10.58 Paul Oh yeah, very and that's a good thing. Ah, where are you? How are you keeping busy right Now. Me. 02:25.40 archpodnet Quite live like locals I mean I guess we were we were in an airbnb in a small like condo complex where I think only maybe there was like 1 other the rental. Um, well they might have been local rentals but 1 of the like airbnba there and and so so we were there with people that you know live there full-time. And and just work and up in a neighborhood outside Cabo and it was fun. It was ah it was nice just being there and and just kind of hanging out and and just kind of pretending to like live in a place like that where every once in a while you can go do something fancy or run a jet ski or you know whatever and it was It was fun I liked it and. I don't know we've we've been considering potentially buying a place down there as an income property and a place we could visit but I think we want to visit a few more places in Mexico especially like maybe on the baha a few more times before we make a decision like that. But you know it's ah it's a cool place to go lots of history down there too. So. 03:12.70 Paul Yeah here. 03:19.17 archpodnet But we're currently on the oregon coast in ah Florence Oregon and headed up to Seattle at the end of this week I'll be up there for a few weeks the next time we record actually if there if there is an next time I haven't looked at the calendar you might be out of the country or on a plane but ah, ah. 03:30.46 Paul Yeah, no I think I think that I get 1 and more recording in before I leave. Ah. 03:36.90 archpodnet Ah, yeah, um, well I'll be up in the Seattle area by that time. So if anybody's listening to this and is up in the Seattle area and you want to meet up. Ah, let's let's have a chat hit us up on the socials or you know wherever you see this podcast and maybe we'll we'll set up an archeitech meet up I don't know how many how many listeners we have in the Seattle area. 03:54.30 Paul Yeah, that'd be cool. 03:54.91 archpodnet So yeah, all right? Well let's talk about the article of the day and Paul you found this one so I'll I'll let you go ahead and introduce this. 04:03.92 Paul Um, right? So ah, the last issue of advances in archeological practice from November Twenty Twenty one um when it came out. There were lots of great articles in it and and so you asked me to pick out a few of them that I liked. 04:18.67 archpodnet Yeah. 04:20.48 Paul And this is the first I think the first one from this gez there goes my brain. Ah thank you? Oh my goodness I would say yeah this episode. 04:27.44 archpodnet This issue Yeah start over? Ah yeah, yeah I hear you. 04:36.72 Paul That's you're saying it's like not an episode and my brain just shut the hell down. Ah so you tasked me to look at a few different articles in this issue and and there were great ones and this one was the first one I pulled out I believe and. 04:40.22 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:52.50 archpodnet In. 04:55.59 Paul The ah the title is it's catchy. It's on hedgehogs and marvelous minds. A new technology for point data collection and so I could see immediately by point data collection that this is going to be mapping and this is something that that interests me the authors are Austin Hill moron Kesel and York Rowan 04:59.98 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 05:15.56 Paul And um I don't know if I've met Austin before I've definitely met morag online a couple of times and interacted with her. Um, and so I also knew that this is going to most likely be something Middle East related and so therefore maybe a little bit in my wheelhouse. 05:21.17 archpodnet Um, no yes. 05:33.95 archpodnet Okay. 05:34.17 Paul Um, and yeah I really enjoyed this article. Yeah, this is another one of the ones that we see in aap a lot that I always and I sound like a broken record but I always praised when people do this kind of thing you know here's my approach at using Xy or z technology. And here's what worked and here's what didn't and here's what we'd like to improve and you know just the the kind of free-flowing open discussion of various technologies. You know, kind of like what we try to do on this podcast but in you know in a ah, slightly more structured. And rigorous form in ah in a journal and so I really like a p for for these kinds of articles and and before we get too far into this I really wanted to to thank the authors of the article for writing about their work and what they did because you know they have highs and lows with it. Um, but I have got. 06:12.76 archpodnet M. 06:26.43 Paul Great ideas coming out of it which I think is um I think that's a ah success. 06:30.34 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely. And yeah I like the structure of the article too. They talk about a few existing technologies and some of the challenges about that and then and then get into the current technology. They want to talk about and then have ah a pretty decent case study where they're honest about the results which I appreciate. 06:38.20 Paul Me. 06:46.39 Paul Um, yeah. 06:49.38 archpodnet Yeah, so all right? Well, let's get into this article then as as I mentioned just to kind of set the stage here. You know this is about collecting 3 D point data on an archaeological side right? and they first talk about some of the. The usual ways of doing that. Um, you know one of which being a total station. We've all been. We've all seen a total station out on site Paul You've ah you know got I think a couple of them at home that you've cobbled together into like a working one. Ah. 07:18.95 Paul Um, now I I have one very good working one and the cobbled together ones I sold during the pandemic. 07:27.92 archpodnet Fred. Nice, Nice well and see this is the issue with total stations right? like like you you get these total stations and it practically takes a Ph D just to learn how to run the damn thing if you've never run one before because they're not. They're like their menu systems and just how they operate. They're not like super intuitive for most archeologists I would say once you really kind of fundamentally understand what it's supposed to do. You can start understanding some of the Jarony terminology they have inside them and then you can probably run just about any total station but that was that was my challenge One of the. 07:45.75 Paul E. 07:59.98 archpodnet 1 of the first ones I ever ran was a topcon and I it took a little while for me to to kind of get into it and then I ended up on a project I don't know maybe a year or two later where they had a like a total station and literally nobody knew how to run it and we were just like moving along with this excavation. 08:13.45 Paul Yeah, yeah. 08:17.52 archpodnet And they were like so does anybody want to just like take this home and figure it out and I was like yeah I'll I'll take it home on the weekend and figure it out I've watched some Youtube videos and did some research and and ended up ah ended up figuring out how to use it and my knowledge of the topcon helped out a little bit but then getting into the like I was able to do it. But then. 08:31.00 Paul Meet. 08:34.85 archpodnet This is the problem that the authors present is like now you're the total station guy and there's like only 1 person that knows how to do it and there's only so much that you can record you know you have to put that thing in different points and record them and it can just be a real pain in the ass to get enough point data from 1 person in 1 unit. 08:47.51 Paul Um, yeah, well 1 person unless you have a robotic total station. 1 person isn't enough you have to have 2 people you know, ah, and so when I did lots and lots of total stations surveying in especially in Petra Jordan um 08:54.32 archpodnet Right? Yeah, totally. 09:07.24 Paul We I always had you know a 2 personson crew who me and my Pollle boy. Um, and if he ever listens to this. He's going to enjoy having been called poll boy in a public forum. But um, but you know so's a twoperson crewise. So if you have. 09:08.24 archpodnet Yeah, pull boy. 09:16.52 archpodnet Ah, guys. 09:26.34 Paul Dedicated a lot of surveying like we did on that project. You've removed 2 people from your entire project to dedicate them to this one mapping project more often than not what you have is that one person ah like you with the liika that knows how to run it and. 09:33.48 archpodnet Yeah. 09:38.82 archpodnet No. 09:43.90 Paul Every time somebody needs a point elevation and they need a line or something they call you and then they grab the pole and and take the shots and you know and that works but it does it is disruptive and if you're busy with something else. They've got to wait and they can't proceed until you're free and then you know it's a. 09:49.73 archpodnet Yeah. 10:00.96 Paul It It really is a bottleneck and that's one of the things that they discuss in the opening of this article is are these bottlenecks to the traditional surveying tools that we use in archeology total stations and and the other ones of course are Gnss receivers. 10:16.46 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely and that's you got similar limitations with cost. Especially if you want to get submeter accuracy even if you're using one of the the Bluetooths gns receivers like we use the the arrow one hundred. 10:24.43 Paul Um. 10:31.30 archpodnet I Mean even those are you know, still well over one thousand dollars just for the device and then obviously you need something to you know something to hook it to and then you need something to read all the data and do stuff with it. So ah, the cost ends up becoming prohibitive for a lot of a lot of projects that are that are you know, fixed costs. 10:49.10 Paul Yeah, and the the way that they're using the in this hedgehogs and marvelous minds. The way that they're using their data collection wouldn't even be appropriate with a ah submeter Gnss receiver. 10:49.49 archpodnet So. 11:03.66 Paul They're really talking about you know, setimeeter level accuracy something like you would get with a total station so that ramps up the cost even more and then you run into the same problem that you have with the total station that you have maybe just one on the project because they're expensive and you have maybe just one person on the project because. 11:04.15 archpodnet Oh yeah. 11:10.10 archpodnet No. 11:17.44 archpodnet Print. 11:21.91 Paul They're the only one that really knows how to run this thing. Um, yes yeah, and then regardless of the ah the staffing problems. 11:22.64 archpodnet Right? And now that person that's like all they can do too because they're doing it all the time. Yeah, so you've just lost an excavator you know somebody that can actually do stuff and they're they're stuck doing this the entire time. So. 11:39.59 Paul Both of these technologies have limitations as to where they can be used right? So total stations obviously have problems with a line of sight you need line of sight in order to take that point. So if you're in a place if you're working with trees or buildings or any other kind of physical obstruction. That's a problem. Um. 11:42.68 archpodnet Right. 11:55.80 archpodnet M. 11:58.56 Paul If the trenches get deep enough. You have to be up higher and or use a long enough pole to to be able to take those points down in the trench and if the trenches are dispersed enough across the site. You might not be able to actually take points from any middle location. Um, you know. The site that I was at at lago we'll probably have um excavations separated by a couple hundred meters when we go back next year and oh geez couple hundred meters no of a kiilometer. Ah, um, yeah, and so that means that either we plant. 12:23.10 archpodnet M. 12:30.81 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 12:36.40 Paul On a high ground somewhere in the middle and hope to be able to take those really long half kilometer shots which are gonna be less accurate. Um, and take longer for each shot to get the ah the bounce back but it also means that if I'm the total station guy and I'm not the total station guy in that problem project. But if I'm the total station guy and you need me. 12:40.35 archpodnet Ah. 12:55.91 Paul On the set of trenches on the south. Ah but I'm on the north you know, call me radio me then I have to walk a half kilometer to get to the point and you know it it becomes logistically. Well no' I'm assuming that I set up and level at first thing on the project but still even then just getting. 12:58.72 archpodnet Yeah. 13:04.98 archpodnet Set it up level it. 13:11.26 archpodnet No I Yeah yeah. 13:14.84 Paul From wherever I'm working to the to the total station to take the shots but that's you know at a kilometer it would probably be more sensible to have 2 total stations one set up near each set of trenches that's doubling the cost and then you still have that staffing issue. You know do I have to. 13:17.46 archpodnet Sure. 13:23.91 archpodnet Ah. Yeah, yeah. 13:32.27 Paul March Kilometer from one set of trenches to the other set of trenches every time anybody on either these sets of trenches needs a point elevation. That's not especially efficient Gps it doesn't have the line of sight problem. But of course it has um it has problems with ah with satellite reception. 13:38.54 archpodnet M. 13:49.77 archpodnet Yeah, so. 13:51.40 Paul Because it relies on satellite reception. So it's notoriously bad if you're under a if you're under a tree canopy. It's notoriously bad if you're up close to a reflective service like a building or a um or a cliff face totally doesn't work if you're inside you know. 13:56.19 archpodnet Right. 14:02.83 archpodnet Um, yeah, no I mean you said right? and just to be clear. You said it doesn't have a line of sight problem but it does have a line of side problem just with outer space. Yeah. 14:09.90 Paul If you're doing something in a cave or rock shelter. You're you're screwed yet they will work. 14:18.00 Paul Um, yeah, just straight up. Yeah, ah. 14:22.76 archpodnet And or at least worth orbit. Yeah yeah, so I'm I'm experiencing that right now as matter of fact, my starlink satellite. You know this is the first location we've had that it's not working super great because we're surrounded by trees and I've got this thing. Suspended via polls that I bought to do this as high as I can possibly get it off the ah rv. It's probably the roof of our Rv is thirteen feet off the ground and when our jacks are down. We're elevated just a few more inches because the jacks you know Jack us up and then this pole is sticking probably twelve feet off the top of the Rv and yet still. I've got a little bit of obstruction and that one little bit of obstruction in my visibility on the dish is causing an internet um dropout which isn't bad for like streaming services because they usually look ahead enough to to cover that drop out that happens every minute or 2 um. But if I'm unlike a Zoom call or a team's call or something like that. It's complete garbage it just like completely fails and I've got to use other means to to get those calls done because they can't handle a dropout because it's real time. So um, yeah, it's ah Amm in my dad's house on his wi-fi. 15:20.19 Paul Ah. 15:26.38 Paul So out of curiosity. This is a good sounding connection. You're on right now. What? What are you using? Oh okay, ah. 15:35.80 archpodnet Because that's where we're at but I don't generally do my calls from in here I just figured for the podcast I would come in here and just you know sit in his back room his his music room I'm surrounded by drum sats and guitars and and this is where they keep their wi-fi So yeah I mean when you're a digital omad digital Nomad you've got to kind of you know do what you can. 15:41.81 Paul M. 15:53.17 Paul Right? right? So ah back to the article. The other thing that they comment on in the intro and again just the the first 2 paragraphs paragraph of the ah of this article. Just. 15:54.73 archpodnet So um, yeah. 16:08.70 Paul Drives home so many things that I've thought about for so long. So if you can get if you can download this article I'll just read it for pure enjoyment because it's again nicely written straight to the point but 1 of the other things that they comment on is is 3 d photo photogrammetry. You know so the same sort of thing that I was playing with the raised beds in my backyard and that we were doing with the the privies. 16:10.13 archpodnet M. 16:16.68 archpodnet Yeah. 16:27.33 Paul Same thing that I was praising by that the excavators were using loggosh on our last episode. Um and that has become increasingly part of people's toolboxes. But it's also a little slow. You know you have to take all those photos you have to bring it back and. 16:39.52 archpodnet Yeah. 16:46.39 Paul Upload it to a computer that can process it um and then from there you can get measurements provide that you've got good ground control points and and things are scaled properly and that's something that I found is not always necessarily a given. 16:50.69 archpodnet M. 17:01.50 archpodnet Yeah. 17:03.90 Paul So you know it's It's a slower process. It's It's excellent and can do all sorts of great things but it has its own problems and in the same like the ah the high-end Gnss receivers and same like the total station. You tend to end up with one person who is the go to for for processing these. 17:19.69 archpodnet Right. 17:21.57 Paul So you may not be losing that one person in the field but at the end of the day on the dig. Ah, you've lost that person because they're processing. They're processing all the photogrammetry work from all the trenches that were excavated and then extracting the data from there. 17:34.57 archpodnet Um. 17:39.70 Paul And handing that back to the excmators who are putting that back into whatever their notation is so it's um, that all these technologies are awesome. You know and it's awesome that we use them That's something I Really like about archae is that we use all sorts of different technologies in lots sorts of different ways. 17:48.19 archpodnet Ah, yeah, yeah. 17:58.14 Paul Practically and effectively um, but there's never any 1 size fits all and and so what they try is um and we'll get back to this after the break but they try a new system called indoor positioning systems ipss and these again like almost everything for archaeology was not. Designed for archeology but they give it a go. 18:19.11 archpodnet There you go all right with that we will talk more about ips as it's called which I love we got Gps now we have ips and we will talk about that on the other side of this break and stick around for segment 3 where we'll have a case study that's mentioned in the article that. Like I said in the beginning is a really honest case study about whether or not this actually worked and and is ready for prime time so we'll be back in a minute. Be sure to listen to our our little sponsors and promos and ads and stuff like that that really help us out and look down at your phone and click on the links in the show notes for this article and also for some of our. Ah, advertisers so you can help out the apn and help out yourself with some extra knowledge back in a minute.