00:00.60 archpodnet Welcome back to episode None of the archaeotech podcast and you know Paul something I want to comment on as you're mentioning right at the close of the last segment was about using Youtube to learn stuff right? We all do that right? We all I mean ah to be honest. 00:12.34 Paul M. 00:34.32 archpodnet My go to for rv stuff because there's a lot of Youtube rvers out there is you know, just Youtube my problem and chances are I'll find a none different videos on that topic and I can kind of pick and choose and it's it's a little bit understood that when you go to Youtube or something like that you are going to pick and choose you can kind of look at the maybe look at the likes in the comments. Stuff like that and say okay so this one you know is a little more this one came out last week and and they have 2 videos I don't know if I'm going to trust that one as much this one has None videos and and None likes on it. So maybe that one's a little more trustworthy although that is not a measure of anything either. Maybe they're just weird and people like that. So. 01:33.80 Paul Um. 01:51.00 archpodnet Um, but the funny thing is it's this weird. It's this weird thing on the internet and in people's psyches about certain sites. So for example, Youtube is seen as a place where you can go to learn stuff understanding the fact that things might be crazy over there. But when you tell somebody that. You know you're linking to like a Wikipedia article or something like that they're like oh you can't trust Wikipedia it's total garbage like you know because it's because it's written by other people. It's like how is that it's actually it's actually like peer reviewed by ah by a lot of people. You know sure if somebody gets in there and writes something and it's not checked or seen. You know by some of the Wikipedia warriors out there in ah in a short order then yes, some misinformation could definitely be put out especially about political figures and topics and stuff like that people love going in and just making changes to articles and then you know seeing how long that sticks. But ah. 03:09.46 Paul M. 03:32.92 archpodnet But chances are it's not going to stick for long which is kind of the whole point of Wikipedia and I just I just find it as an interesting thing when I was thinking about when you're talking about Youtube that nobody nobody really thinks of Wikipedia for serious stuff just because. It's seen as a place where it can be easily altered I'm like what about Youtube videos. You're not even checking. They don't even list their sources on a Youtube video but you know well some do, but but most people don't so and and then I guess I guess the other thing I was thinking about is man. There is a business here isn't there because. 04:01.16 Paul Right. 04:41.26 archpodnet Some of the things you've been talking about today I really only have knowledge of because I've either you know I've worked around coders a lot when I have my office at the reno collective listening to you talk about a lot of this stuff. You know to be honest, listening to this podcast has has taught me a number of things because I just don't regularly go to. Um, you know I've been on the github website before but I've only been there because somebody sent me a link to go do something or I click on a link in these articles. But I've never submitted anything over there used anything over there and some of these other things you're talking about like I have 0 experience with all that stuff and and somebody listening to this or reading an article like this. Their brain is just gonna like light on fire when they're thinking about these things because they just they just don't even know where to start you know what? I mean and while these things might be getting easier through time as things like this do it really seems like there's a market for somebody to you know. Somebody that owns a company that could set these things up and either even run them for other companies and other people that would ultimately obviously would ultimately have to save them money in some way shape or form either them trying to figure out how to set it up or the process itself saves the money because that's why you pay for services to get done is because. You can't do it as cheaply and it'll save you money. But I don't know did do you have you heard of anybody kind of setting out to do this as a service or largely academic. Still. 07:02.00 Paul Um, well I think it's largely academic but you mentioned peer review and at the risk of now sounding like I'm advertising for protocols io those 2 protocols both at the top say. 07:45.14 archpodnet Ah, yeah, no okay. 07:39.28 Paul Peer reviewed and and they're done. They're cited like articles. You know you see the names of the authors you see their their institutional affiliations. It's not some random dude sitting in front of his computer. It is actual you know. 08:04.48 archpodnet Sure. 08:14.56 Paul Scientific researchers saying hey this works in our lab if you want to reproduce it here are the steps that you can do to reproduce it in your lab. Um, and that's really good. We don't have that with with github and that's why I kind of I'm very intrigued by the protocols that I o one but I don't. 08:38.64 archpodnet Sure. 08:52.34 Paul Really care one way or the other I just don't want it to be 97 different places to go to I'd much rather have it be a handful of places open again. So that um so that you know we can share what works and what doesn't work for us as as researchers as archaeologists. Um, like 1 of the big things and this is getting inside but everything I say is on the side. Ah that that really gets me is is with gis work is how do you document your procedures. Um I had a number of of. Ah, images in my visualizations rather in my dissertation that I went ahead and made a cookbook as an appendix in my ah at the end of the the dissertation so that people could reproduce. My imagery in in grass which is what I did them in and I've had to refer to those a few times over the years when I can't remember what to do because typically when you like generate a new layer in gis based off of transformation from an old layer. It's. There. There is no internal documentation of what that process was what what module you use? What settings you used any of that stuff. So I've been lately. I've been documenting that internally by just making notes free to the layer but that also feels extremely fragile and I would love if that there was some. 11:39.62 archpodnet Right. 11:56.46 archpodnet So. 11:55.56 Paul Way of exposing this stuff that happens internally within the gis out to some public venue so that it becomes quite easy then for somebody else to follow Along. Try the same settings. Maybe the same inputs for the data sources Maybe their own data Source inputs. But. Be able to follow along with the same settings and generate something comparable I think that would be hugely important but I haven't seen anything like that. So Actually this is an open invitation for any of our listeners if I'm just blind to something that everybody else does or if there's something new out there that does this already that I haven't heard of. 12:54.60 archpodnet Rem. 13:08.24 Paul I would love to know about it because I think this is critically important for the kind of work I've been doing lately and we'll be doing going forward. Um, back to the article the authors you know, not only do they talk about the using ah the fully free and open source source path. Including open drone map versus the mostly free and open source except for the None big expensive thing using meta-shape photo scan ah, they also talk about different ah different software for the drone mapping and so that was another thing that actually appealed to me that they. Use drone deploy for actually flying the drone and this is software that gets installed on the controller actually on your phone or tablet that's usually attached to the controller and ah and that's what they're using drone deploy is not free software. 14:42.78 archpodnet Right. 14:53.96 archpodnet So. 15:03.92 Paul It's closed source. Um I use it in in Iraq It's excellent where they make their money is you can have the free controller software but they make their money by having an easy path to upload the the photos that you take and into their website and have it. Do all the processing for you so you don't have to have your own fancy computer. You just have to have an internet connection. Um, and you know they do great with that. But but that's what the authors are not doing. They're not doing the end to end with drone deploy that drone deploy part and they mention it. There are a number of different programs that you can use instead you know, installed on your. 15:58.60 archpodnet Right. 16:18.48 Paul Phone or tablet that you're using when you're actually out in the field flying I've been testing 1 lately called maps made easy because they have drivers for the the drone that I've got the phantom three standard which is an older drone and a lot of ones don't have it. So if you're looking at things. Um. 16:55.80 archpodnet Okay, so. 16:56.66 Paul To try to replicate this. You don't have to go strictly with drone deploy. You could go with any of a number there probably None of different ones out there but you just have to be cognizant of whether or not they support your drone that should be obvious but might not necessarily be ah but that also that introduces. Ah. 17:31.52 archpodnet Yeah. 17:34.10 Paul A kind of variability that is going to change a little bit of the process too. You know they ah let me give you an example. Um, the. 17:59.60 archpodnet Right. 18:09.98 Paul Drawing the maps of where you're going to fly now when you when you do a a photogrammetry drone mission you typically program the area that you want and the elevation and it knows the the camera that you have and you tell it what kind of overlap between None picture and the next and. Then it will draw a Zigzag pattern that goes across that area. The the meets all those parameters so drone deploy you do that right in their software or you do it on the web you download it onto the tablet. You're good to go um the dja i. Pantom four rtk that we use in the field doesn't have a way of installing drone deploy on it. So your choices are either use the dja program that's built in to do all that same thing draw the the outlines set the elevation the overlap of blah blah blah. 19:47.36 archpodnet Right here. 19:57.44 Paul And have it do it or else you can use drone deploy and then do like what I did write a little script that will take and translate their thing into a Kml that I can import into this but again, it's all drone deploy. So That's a bit of a pain prior to this rtk. Ah, we. Had ah dja Phantom Ah for V Two Pro The V Two pro has a built in attached control of tablet on the controller that doesn't have that piece of Dja software to do that That flight plan. No way of using that drone with any mapping software which is you know that's a problem so you know this isn't just another kind of a side warning. In this case is that if you're buying a drone for something like this ah you might want to steer away from a drone that has a controller. 21:22.98 archpodnet Yeah. 21:34.30 archpodnet Yeah. 21:47.58 Paul That has a built in screen because you probably can't get the mapping software onto that controller onto that screen If ah, if it's not already built in. 22:17.60 archpodnet Well. 22:10.98 Paul So even though there's dozens of different things out there like drone deploy like maps made easy like lichy like whatever actually Lichy doesn't do that kind of plan. It doesn't matter. Um, you might not actually be able to use them for a variety of reasons. Um I don't know that's my little rent. 22:50.26 archpodnet Is it just that The is it just that the the onboard like djai software is just like not up to snuff for really commercial use because they're they're really trying to hit commercial users with some of this stuff right? like they really have a you know, ah hard advertising campaign. 23:13.00 Paul M. 23:29.38 archpodnet The commercial use of their drones and it would surprise me that for the ones with the built-in screen unless those ones are not necessarily geared towards commercial users. They're geared towards you know more towards hobbyists but archaeologists tend to buy them because they're cheaper which might be the case. That it that it wouldn't be up to snuff for what you needed to use you know so. 23:55.22 Paul Yeah I think it's not the ah the notion of the commercial user versus the non-commercial user. It's the kind of commerce right? So dja they're things that are designed for mapping for agricultural uses for the photogometric mapping like we're talking about. 24:22.70 archpodnet So. 24:34.12 Paul They have their own program built into that controller that you're expected to use the ones that aren't designed for those but have the built-in Controller are for the photographers and so they have software that's similar but it flies paths that you know point around an object. 24:49.60 archpodnet Okay, so. 25:10.94 Paul Um, follow me that sort of thing. Ah but not a regular flight plan that's going to get you. You know at one hundred meters 60% overlap over these five hectares so it's a different use case. Um and it turns out that the ones that. 25:42.76 archpodnet Red Red. Yes. 25:49.26 Paul Don't have those built-in controllers are more flexible because you can then install on your Android or your ios device. Any of all these different programs you want provided that they are compatible with your drone. Um, and yeah, that should all be obvious but i. Haven't seen it spelled out and I've seen people accidentally buy the wrong kind of drone because they think it can do what it can and what they want it to do and in the abstract it can but they can't get the damn software on the controller to do what they want it to do. 27:00.10 archpodnet Ah, right right? Okay, all right. 26:58.80 Paul So another thing that they that they talk about you know we're talking about open drone map versus versus photo scan and I thought it was interesting that they go with open drone map in their example which is a command line. Program and I've been playing a lot with aerial photogrammetry lately myself not using drone deploy but using stuff installed on my own computers and I settled on web odm which is a side project of open Drome Map and it's a web-pac frontend to odm and it's ah it's been really good for me. Um, much more intuitive than open dronemap which gets us back to this whole question that we're talking about with free and open source software about usability and. Support and such and I'm finding web odms usability be even though I love command line programs when I tried to open drone map I was just a little bit at c and web odm it just was obvious the interface is so easy to me that that I went with that. Um. 29:17.52 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 29:13.20 Paul So now for what it's worth that would be another thing if I were to take their instructions and fork it a little bit maybe art fork it in that direction just to make it a little friendlier for the User. Um, but again having it all Command line makes it easier to be scriptable. So. There's There's definitely something to be said for that. 30:07.76 archpodnet So okay, well, that's good. So one of the last things you have in our notes here is a pro tip for marking different batches of photos from the authors. Let's talk about that. 30:17.84 Paul Okay, so this one here was um, it wasn't in the article it was on their github page and I love just little tips like this that just are so obvious. 30:44.44 archpodnet Okay. 30:58.88 archpodnet Yeah. 30:49.30 Paul So I'm going to share 2 None that wasn't on theirs and one that is and I don't know if I shared the none one before but I've been telling everybody. Yeah here is that if you're doing photogrammetry like across a field across a site across the large area you typically use ground control points and you can purchase them. Whatever Surveyor was telling me that what he uses. Are those black and white kitchen tiles. The vinyl tiles they cost about a dollar each. They're a foot across you can place the point of your of your Gps or your total station prism. 31:48.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 32:11.20 archpodnet Nice. 32:02.86 Paul Right? there on the the cross in the middle they were perfectly as yeah, just absolutely brilliant, simple lack and so the author's pro tip on their github page is for me feels the same way. Um with drone deploy when you tell it to go to its flight. It takes a photograph. 32:27.72 archpodnet So yeah. 32:42.54 Paul Right? As it's taking off I mean just before it takes off so you'll have all the other photographs will be straight down you know from the air but there'll be one that'll be you know the grass sort of the dirt right in front of the drone I think that maps made easy that their Matt Pilot pro does the same thing because that's what I was playing with um. 32:56.12 archpodnet So. 33:20.72 Paul I'm not sure if I accidentally hit the shutter or not regardless of whether your software does this automatically or not they suggested taking a whiteboard and writing on that whiteboard. What the mission was putting that in front of the drone so that that first picture is. 33:55.64 archpodnet Sure. 33:59.29 Paul The mission and then it goes and flies the mission and has that way you don't have to sit there and look at you know 6 700 photographs and try to figure out where the barrier is between the first mission I flew today and where it is with the second mission which just simple little hack that is. 34:37.24 archpodnet Yes, it's. 34:37.58 Paul So obvious once you hear it and so brilliant and I love that. 34:56.20 archpodnet Yeah, and you know I've been doing ah a variation on that. Well I guess a variation with some things that I've done in the past and one one way that we actually currently use that in the Rv and and we've posted some of this on our Rv and Youtube channel but I'm I'm way behind on a lot of it but we still record it is we record it. Time lapse video from the center bottom of the windshield of the rv every time we drive and I've taken those videos and added little commentaries to them and put them up on put them up on our Youtube channel for people traveling a certain route that maybe they want to see it in real time. Well in rapid time and time lapse view. 35:29.38 Paul Listen. 36:12.44 archpodnet Before they drive it. You know it just might be a fun little thing to to have access to but I'll tell you what you know by the time I fill up the card on this I've got like a I don't know like a 256 gigabyte card inside the gopro and time lapse for like like a 6 hour time lapse only takes like 20 minutes and so. It takes a long time to fill up that card and by the time I get it done I'm like where the hell did this start and end so most of the time now I actually finger right on the ipad what the route is we're going from this point to this point and when we turn on the time lapse is the none thing that you see and that way I can easily identify the video and and. 36:45.60 Paul Is. 37:26.90 archpodnet Be able to tell where it goes Otherwise I've got to either you know, go back and look at our navigational history and find out where we've been and where we're going and you know what was the next place that we went and you know look at road signs and try to figure it out. It's real pain in the ass. So yeah, being proactive on your organization saves you a lot of time on the back end. 37:45.90 Paul Yeah, yeah, it certainly can and and I think that that's you know, ah in a microcosm I think that's the benefit of of an article like this and about the protocol that they did. They're being proactive by telling you beforehead hey deal the steps. 38:03.98 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 38:16.50 archpodnet I. 38:20.74 Paul And and you can just play along. 38:35.28 archpodnet So nice. Nice all right? Well I Love the conversation that this article inspired for us and and I hope it does for you guys as well listening to this and you know hopefully it encourages some people to go out and check out some alternative solutions and at the very least. You know take a look at this article if it's something you're interested in doing and see how they did this and the nice thing about the suite of software that they used is you could probably slot other pieces in for each one of these steps If Maybe you prefer you know something else or you think something else might work a little better. You know, try it and more important than try. It is. Tell people about it tell people how it went good or bad. Ah so and and if you're not into write an academic paper then just come on the podcast and let's talk about it so that that'll be better than better than nothing and just doing it in in the Dark. So Any final thoughts on this paul. 39:40.80 Paul Yes. 40:11.92 Paul No hundred percent share share your show your notes share your work will all benefit. It'll make the field stronger. 40:39.16 archpodnet Yeah, indeed, all right? and with that we will see you guys next time we got an interview coming up next time and it's a little bit outside of archeology but closely tied to education and the stuff that we should be learning So I'm pretty excited about that. 40:40.86 Paul Um, who. 41:13.42 archpodnet We'll see you next time. Thanks a lot.