00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 82 of the archaeotech podcast and we are talking to Jd sorry we are talking to jdcalivelli about the gamification of education now we've kind of hinted around this. Let's talk about the game that you guys have. It ah sorry see it happens to me too. Let me start over? Yeah I'm the editor you remember that. So. Ah so let's talk about the game that you guys have developed algorithm which i. 00:22.39 Paul Ah, we're going to leave this in right? Chris. 01:13.40 archpodnet Love the name by the way I just kind of hope that that's somebody's name or something like that Algo rhythm I don't know talk about it. 00:41.60 JD Calvelli It was ah it was a brainstorming session across our entire team when somebody just sort of a fellow analyst named Noah who's very good with puns like that's his thing he was like guys I I got it like and we were like what are you talking about? you don't have it. 01:37.66 archpodnet Um, yeah. Yeah. 01:15.20 JD Calvelli We just stepped into the room and he's like no, we totally got it and he pulled out algorithm and we were like Okay, yeah, that's it We literally ended the meeting. Ah yeah, we knew we knew. 02:12.10 archpodnet Ah, when you know you know, Nice nice all right? So what is algorithm? What do you try to teach. Yeah, go ahead. 02:00.19 Paul Cool. So what's this. Ah. 01:48.68 JD Calvelli Yeah, so um, so ah, one of our I sort of discussed a couple things that I've worked on at risk up until this point but 1 of our biggest initiatives and one of the initiatives that I think we're most known for ah thus far is our data science for everyone initiative. 03:02.56 archpodnet Oh. 02:26.22 JD Calvelli Um, and so we started a coalition with ah a bunch of different stakeholders. Ah quite a number of different stakeholders around the country that are interested in in advancing. Ah the teaching of data science in k through None education. Um, back to sort of like Steve's you know modus apaondi of like data is important. We need to be reading data. We need to be data literate. We need to be using data to find interesting um information, interesting elements of the world that perhaps are hidden from our immediate view. Um and starting that conversation about how to talk about data and how to think about data much earlier. Um, then where we currently are I know for me, it wasn't really until my junior year of college that I even had a course that was talking about what data is and how to analyze it. Um, and the the impetus behind starting data science for everyone for risk was to sort of ah make that first conversation happen earlier. Um, and so for us the reason why we created algorithm. Um was to try to start that conversation as early as we felt we possibly could so we created this game. Um, for you know, fourth early. Um to late or rather late like. Elementary school to early middle school students to sort of introduce them to some very very fundamental. Um, but very very important topics about data. Um, because we had this interesting conversation with some students when we were sort of. 05:42.40 archpodnet Okay. 05:29.80 JD Calvelli You know when we were None testing the game as we were developing it you know data drivenve designing the game. Ah as we were developing it out and we would ask students. You know when you think of data. What do you think of um and a sizable number of students in that age group said the thing that. 06:18.64 archpodnet M. 06:05.96 JD Calvelli Your phone gives you to allow you to connect to the internet and we would sort of like collectively face palm you know and be like oh my God but also we totally understand right that that is sort of like culturally um or rather like the zeitgeist understanding. 06:28.69 Paul Oh boy. 06:38.76 JD Calvelli Of of what data is or the way that we sort of discuss data most prevalently or the word data comes up most prevalently rather like in in regular Contexts So we wanted to start the conversation as early as possible like what is data you know, Um, what can you use data for right? Why is it important to understand data. 07:03.13 Paul Yeah, yeah. Yeah, with kids. 07:17.24 JD Calvelli Ultimately because you you can use it to help you make more informed better decisions. So that was kind of like our impetus behind creating algorithm and and our initial sort of guiding principles. 08:04.86 archpodnet Um, me. 07:57.29 Paul Um, yeah, that's actually interesting because that that use of the word data I mean we use it so many ways I would never have guessed the kids would have used it in that particular way. But of course that's where they year it in the house I'm sure most frequently dads and used up all our data this month 08:10.90 JD Calvelli Yeah, yeah. 08:33.77 Paul I mean I know I said that' to my kids a None times. Ah so um, Wow um, that Okay there we go right back to the the looking at the world from multiple angles I hadn't even thought of the basic you know, meaning of that word. Um, So anyhow, can you give us a little description for. For us How how the game works I mean I downloaded it onto my ipad earlier. So I could play it a little bit but can you tell us you know what? the? Ah what the metaphor is what's going on and what specifically you're trying to teach about data through that app. 09:15.82 JD Calvelli Yeah, for sure So happy to do so our game takes place on a dance floor where you as the player are are sort of tasked with being the dja for this particular dance floor. Um, and the idea is that you have to sort of. Ah, fulfill the requests of the dance floor um utilizing different elements of data that each song or that that each song sort of oh let me let me back up. Sorry yeah so happy to do so um so the game. 10:58.20 archpodnet Ah. 10:32.34 JD Calvelli Takes place on a dance floor and the players tasked with acting as the deeja for this particular dance floor and as the deej their role is to you know, get the dance floor moving and so the the way in which they they are tasked with getting the dance floor moving is by fulfilling certain. Requests or requirements. Um with regards to the the music that the songs that they choose to be a part of their playlist and so students in the None 2 levels of the game are tasked with creating a playlist that fulfills a certain criteria so you know make a danceable. Playlist right? Make an energetic playlist make a very tempo-driven playlist right? and in the abstract that's sort of like okay well, that's interesting, right? How exactly do I do that?? Um, and the catch is that we present students not only with sort of the sound. 12:31.96 archpodnet No. 12:20.52 JD Calvelli Ah, the sounds themselves the song themselves or bites of the songs themselves but we also present them with some information about the songs. Um, that has been derived specifically from the Spotify Api so Spotify determines like oh this song in our database has. This number danceability has this number tempo has this number um energy and so sort of we. We're nudging the students you know, ideally to utilize both their you know sonic intuition of like oh I've heard this song this song makes me dance. But not only that um you know this song has a certain danceability score danceability value that's been determined. Um as a piece of data connected to this particular song right? Um, and if I use those 2 things together my own intuition about you know what is a danceable song. Um, and these this information this actual data about the danceability level of the song or energy or tempo. Um, then I could create the best playlist possible. So that's the None levels the last level is just taking requests from the dance floor. Up until basically you fail a certain number of times and you go for a high score. Um, so and the taking of requests works in a very similar way where it's like oh this, you know, ah person has asked me to play a song that has a certain level of danceability and also a certain level of tempo or as certain you know, tempo and a certain level of energy. Um, and the catch is that you have a time limit right? So you can't you can't spin through every single possible record um to figure out. Ah which song should be used in that particular instance, you have to start using the data to help you make that decision timely manner. Um, so again, kind of you know we hope that we can frame this conversation about you know. Data isn't just the thing that powers your phone on the internet. It's information about certain things. Um, that can be utilized in conjunction with your own sort of thoughts and feelings about a particular thing to make better decisions about that thing. In this case, you know what makes the best Spotify Playlist what makes the best song playlist. But we'll get the people dancing as much as possible, right? but that could be extrapolated further in any other number of ways right? you know and that's that's the idea. Hopefully we're we're planting that seed such that it can continue to grow um going forward I hope that makes sense does that does that answer the question. 17:15.69 Paul Yeah I think it does I Just want to ah to to clarify my then understanding of it is what you're shooting for you've got these ah the the tempo energy and danceability scores for each of the tracks. 17:38.14 archpodnet And does. 17:44.31 Paul And what you're trying to do is maximize a certain outcome based off of those scores. 17:31.10 JD Calvelli Exactly exactly. 18:18.68 archpodnet Nice. So okay, that's really cool and I love this type of game. It's just anything that involves I feel like music and rhythm and things like that in order and and. Using that to kind of teach you other stuff it just one of those things that kind of sticks in our brain doesn't it. So ah, how long did it take you guys to develop this game because I was actually when we were starting to get around with this I thought we were going to talk about some kind of a concept and then you know it's on the app store and you can download it and play it right Now. So and it looks like it's not you you created a whole company around. Either this game or apps in general I'm not really sure. But you know you created a company around doing that It's a free game So How how long did it take you guys to fully develop this once you had the idea. 19:18.36 JD Calvelli Yeah, so um, the the idea was sort of in in the works and the game was in the works prior to me joining risk earlier this past year so I would say all in all, it probably took us about 2 years and change. Um and actually. 20:24.10 archpodnet Girl. 19:52.20 JD Calvelli We didn't make the company around the game we had the benefit of working with a company out of toronto called Enable education that offered their own services as a development firm for us pro Bono because they believed sort of in in our vision of of what this should look like and. 20:44.48 archpodnet Um. 21:02.70 archpodnet Possible. 20:27.82 JD Calvelli Yeah, for that we're we're you know, incredibly incredibly grateful for them. Um, and we'll continue ah to sing their praises for the amount of hard work that they put into this project as Well. Um, but yeah, you know the the game was it was a long time in the making and a lot of that was you know development time but also a lot of it was you know, kind of. Living by our own our own word where it was kind of us actually testing and making sure and gathering data about you know our game and the extent to which it actually does do what we hope it does whether it actually you know teaches students these fundamental things about data and whether it um you know helps. Helps them kind of better understand what data actually is so you know living living by our own practices was a lot of that as well. 22:33.48 archpodnet Yeah, 1 thing I think is interesting and Apple's been doing this for a little while now it it tells you when you go to the app store. What data is collected against you. You know and usually that means private data like data. That's personally about you and it's interesting for a so. 22:09.96 JD Calvelli An egg. 23:06.18 archpodnet Game about data science that no data is actually collected is what it says on Apple but I'm wondering no that means no personal data. So I understand that but are you yeah. 22:34.78 JD Calvelli Yeah, yeah, we we we don't collect any personal data like that. But we do collect a little bit of like you know, average session time you know where's your drop off that kind of stuff which is interesting that that doesn't show up um in the app store. But also yeah, no, we. 23:34.60 archpodnet Sure. 23:10.80 JD Calvelli We don't need your name. We just hope that you're learning something you know. 23:55.70 archpodnet Ah, yeah, well and that's that's what I was actually getting at is what what other kind of like you mentioned session info and stuff like that. But what else are you guys collecting in order to I guess learn more about how the app is actually helping people learn more about helping children learn more about data science And. Um, and and then may are you are you making continuous improvements to the app based on that or is it just kind of like it's living out there now and you'll keep it alive but you're onto something else. 24:06.68 JD Calvelli Yeah, so you know we kind of view it from 2 different angles of like the more quantitative stuff of like you know? Ah, what are the monthly active users. What are the daily active users. You know how long is the playtime. What levels do people get to. 25:14.52 archpodnet Oh. 24:37.60 JD Calvelli Um, you know do they get to the very end. You know how long do they play at the end and a lot of that is more like oh you know what are people playing our game right? is it is it fun enough that it keeps people involved. Um and again, that's more quantitative and that's more to the kind of gamification the initial point about gamification of like. 25:35.50 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 25:15.66 JD Calvelli Oh hopefully it can serve as an incentive structure to get people to engage with things that they otherwise might not necessarily engage in. Um and in this case, that's you know, learning a little something about data science. It's students learning a little something about data science. The qualitative side is probably more of you know where we get our fill of. 26:06.60 archpodnet But. 26:19.18 archpodnet Nice. 25:57.83 Paul Cool. 25:53.60 JD Calvelli Have students actually learn this or have they actually gotten something out of it and that has come more specifically from conversations. Ah you know with students conversations with teachers that have use in the classroom or are planning on using it in the classroom and have you know made made the case to us that it's sort of like a helpful thing for them. And I think people oftentimes kind of forget. Ah that data is more than just you know numbers and and ah and you know what you can see on an excel Spreadsheet. It's also that qualitative element of like we got this information from these students Specifically thats said that it's Helpful. You know and I mean or from these teachers Specifically that said that it's helpful. 27:41.78 archpodnet Oh. 27:04.48 JD Calvelli Um, so you know it's It's the combination of both of those 2 things that's helping us kind of drive the direction of it going forward. Um, and ideally you know we're We're not entirely sure to be honest, where where we'd like to go from here. We'd we'd love to see you know the game continue to be played and we'd love to get. You know people's reactions and and thoughts about how it can be improved going forward and you know hopefully you know we can continue to and improve it a little bit or maybe take what we've learned and apply it to something else and something different. Um, but yeah, you know we we just released so we're. We're hoping that students and and people can get a little bit of something out of it and then we can you know, get some information from them about how we can hopefully make it better. Do something better in the Future. We're still early on so we're we're hoping to ah you know to to keep going keep on keeping on. 29:17.10 archpodnet Indeed. 28:55.27 Paul Um, Ah, you know you hinted at it a bit there and it was a question that I'd actually written up on on our notes here. Do You actually have a lesson plan that goes along with this with with algorithm is the intent. Like Solo exploration child will download this and play the game and learn or is it intended for some kind of guided you know, especially like a classroom environment. Um is there an overarching approach that you're taking not just for this game but also for any educational products that risk is producing. 29:40.38 JD Calvelli Yeah, so we one one of the big things that that we always say at risk and it's it's not a cop out I swear um, is that we're generalists but we're not specifically you know we we don't know we don't know we know a little bit of everything but we don't know anything all that. Well. Um, and so sort of ah part of how that sort of expressed itself in this project is that you know we would like to work with teachers who have played our game and who find it interesting to develop a more comprehensive lesson plan about how it can be actually you know utilized. So. 1 of the things that when we initially created it one of the pillars of our design was that we'd want it to be something that a student could play you know and derive something from even without the existence of a lesson plan around it even without sort of um you know a teacher guiding through it but we also hope that it could be something that could be utilized in a classroom that could be used. You know, buy a teacher um to help sort of you know teach teach a little bit of something interesting on a Friday when they have some extra time or something like that sort of in service to this bigger goal of us encouraging um data science and data literacy in in k through None classrooms. So. 32:04.69 Paul P. 32:08.60 JD Calvelli Hopefully you know one of our next steps then and you know we we would love any sort of advice from anyone on this um is exactly how we could have that um happen in a classroom and how that lesson plan could be created to have it work as well as possible in the classroom. None of our our hope is that it sort of teaches again those those like. 3 very fundamental ideas of like there's data everywhere. Um, there's data behind things that you may not necessarily think there is data behind I guess for data isn't the the thing that powers your phone. Um, and also that it can be used to help you make some decisions. Um. But a more comprehensive lesson plan around. It is hopefully in the works and more than hopefully in the works. We would like for it to be in the works. Um with the guidance from more people more intelligent than us in that space. 34:00.63 Paul Well awesome I've got a ah follow up question about this. But why we take the break right now because my my mind is buzzing right now with with ah with ideas that you're triggering. 34:04.92 JD Calvelli Um, cool. 34:49.42 archpodnet All right? We'll be back in a minute.