00:00.24 archpodnet All right? Welcome members of the archeology podcast network this is a bonus segment for Arche attack 82 with Jd calveli and we are talking about the gamification of education I can cut that out. Um. We're talking about the gamification of education and we just had so much to talk about. We're in a we're in a bonus segment for here and if we keep going paul has to drop at some point during this recording if we don't finish it by then so if he doesn't respond at the end. That's why but let's just let's just keep this going because we had so much more to talk to you about about gamification and in fact. Jd and Paul you guys were talking about something before we even started recording. You want to kick that little discussion back off again. 00:41.68 Paul Yeah, absolutely so JD was asking me what my trepidation was or what my hesitancy was regarding gamification in education and it's not that I think it's necessarily a bad thing but gamification. Yeah. 01:45.30 archpodnet Oh. 01:19.76 Paul In a lot of respects is done kind of nefariously I think right? so things are done in ways to make you stay in that environment forever and it frustrates me I'm not I'm not much of a gamer so you know the last game I played a lot I realized I was playing so much that I stopped and I haven't played any games since. Um, which was clash of clans when it None came out and oh boy yeah, and I just would get sucked into it and and I'd find myself and all my co-workers would be in there playing it at every little pause in our our workday or in our evenings or whatever you know. 01:21.39 JD Calvelli Oh boy. Ah. 02:30.10 Paul I so I certainly get that kind of um that rush from Twitter when I get in random fights with people you know at None in the morning when I really really want to just be going to bed but I can't put it down because it's there and and gamification as an educational tool I think done wrong feeds into that. But I don't think it has to be like that and so yeah, so j d you and I were discussing. Yeah some of the ethics I guess around how None gamifieses education. 02:46.97 JD Calvelli Yeah, and and I think that's you know that's that's a very tough conversation right? and I and I think it's a little.. It's unfortunate because a lot of the ethics around you know games and addiction and the incentive structures that game creates. Um. Has not or rather the the incentive structures created have not been the most ethical um you know and I think the reality is that you know when it depends on what is the initial incentive for having created the game in the None place right? for for lack of a better way to put it Gam vacation. Super powerful. 04:30.70 Paul 3 04:00.33 JD Calvelli Creating an engaging environment for people to be inside of super powerful tool like what are you using that tool for. Are you using that tool to keep people you know, invested in a time sync so that they can continue to spend money on your particular products right? and I think a lot of of ah. Conversation about how how games and addiction about games is harmful and hurtful. You know I mean there's there's None of reasons. Why Unfortunately but like everything there's None reasons why anything in excess is not good. Um, but a lot of that conversation is like oh you know there are these mechanics and games like loopboxes like. You know, certain gambling adjacent things that exists for the purpose of of divorcing you from your money but that again comes down to like the initial purpose of having created a game in the None place right? like are you creating a game to make money like are you creating a game to make a point are you creating a game for the artistic. 05:57.14 Paul And. 05:54.13 JD Calvelli Merit of it right? Are you creating a game to trying to teachse somebody something and in the say in the case where you're trying to teache somebody something right? Some of the the previously maybe kind of scary elements of of games. The fact that they can immerse you the fact that they can get you really engaged and and continuing to um, be involved in that space and in that place and in that you know Mindset. Ah, so kind of turn maybe to a little bit of a positive right? because now it's like oh well, you know, maybe we're actually teaching people things that otherwise it wouldn't have learned right and we're not only teaching them things but we're teaching them things in a way. Keeps them engaged in the thing and might even sort of encourage them to seek out other ways to to learn about that very thing so you know I'd never say that addiction is ever a good thing right? because it because it absolutely isn't um, but I think it comes down to you again like what is the initial purpose behind having made the game in the None place right? Are you making it for the purpose of. Good. Are you making it for the purpose of not so good right. 08:21.28 Paul Um, no I mean that makes a lot of sense and I'm glad that you're considering that is part of developing these games because I think that that ignoring it or just jumping headlong into. Oh yeah, let's make as addictive as possible is is problematic. Um, so maybe you could just. 08:09.95 JD Calvelli Yeah. 08:58.94 Paul Comment on ah what your opinion of this I mean this is a none -baked idea of mine but finality of the game right? So a lot of console games have an ending right? depending how you play it. It might be a more positive and more negative ending. But when you get to the end. You're done. You might be able to restart the game and start from from the beginning again and go through or at some save point of yours. Ah, but that's a different thing than yeah, even actually duolingo Duolingo guess you know I'll be done with my arabic lessons soon enough. But. They they did develop more ones but you know for the so many of the games have no finality right? You just play it and they want to keep you in that world as long as possible and then you just get addicted and you wake up and you grab the phone and you play the game for a bit. do you have. um do you have kind of a vision of how one can do effective educational games that you know maybe they use finality. Maybe they don't but they they have some mechanism to pull you back out of once the lesson is done. 10:28.71 JD Calvelli Yeah I think um, that's that that is a very interesting distinction right? Whether there are games or certain games that approach the medium with like. And intended all games I would argue approach the medium with an intended experience right? It's like what as a game creator do I want the player of my game to get out of playing this game. Um and some people decide that the finality of their game is critical to whatever the message of their game is right. 12:09.86 Paul Is. 12:51.64 archpodnet If. 11:34.87 JD Calvelli Um, and so in the case of like you know, ah any game I can't even think of ah of a good example of like any game with a story right? You know there there is a there is a endpoint of that story because they're trying to tell you a cohesive narrative right in in most cases right. And so I think you know that is ah is a powerful tool that can be used definitely in Education. You know much like any sort of narrative can be used in education because it can sort of pull you through right and get you to the to the payoff of like and this is what this is the moral of the story right? This is the aesop fable and then this is what you're supposed to learn about it right. This is what you're supposed to get out of it. Um, which I think you know is is one element I don't think in every case where there isn't a finality that that's a bad thing though I think I think it is a mechanical choice and I think that the question is like back to the initial point of like. 13:46.42 Paul Is it. 13:21.33 JD Calvelli What are you trying to teach or what are you trying to as a creator. What is the intended experience that you're trying to have somebody have right? So in our case like with with algorithm we very intentionally decided right? not to have um. Not not to have a finality right to have a certain level of of ongoingness to the game because we wanted to prove that as time gets lower and lower right? as you have less and less time to make a decision. Ah you are more and more in need of the data. You are more and more in need and you can rely less and less on your own sort of intuition. Um, just by virtue of the fact that if you have 5 seconds to make a choice. You need to find the song that has you know above a None danceability above a None tempo and above an eight energy. You can't sift through None songs and figure it out. 15:34.50 Paul He is. 15:02.95 JD Calvelli Um, because you just don't have the time. So I think it comes down to like what's the what's the point right of like what are you trying to ah to get out of it. Um, and how can those different mechanical decisions help or hinder. Ah, the point that you're trying to make. 16:55.42 archpodnet Okay, well you know I got to step back to game addiction for a second and the fact that you were mentioning Duolingo is making me think of it. There are 3 things that I've done every day for the past a little over a year when I decided to kind of start doing this I read a book Blah Blah Blah. It's a whole thing and and 2 of those things actually are Duolingo every single day I've been teaching myself Spanish because I never learned it in high school I took Japanese in high school and Latin in College. So I never learned Spanish and I feel like feel like I should know it right? and. 16:29.91 JD Calvelli Nice, okay. 18:03.58 archpodnet So I do duollinko every day for 20 to 30 minutes and it's partly gamified I don't really care about like my friends scores on there and I do have some people on there Paul I see you on there but I don't really use that. Um, yeah, but I like to I know but I like to stay in the leagues right? like that's kind of keeps me going and also the streak. 17:40.26 Paul Yeah, yes, what of 2 18:39.86 archpodnet Streak is huge right? That's the keeping the streak alive is and I'm like I'm almost to a year because I actually had to use some some little bonus things. Yeah, but anyway that and then I write in my journal every day the day one journal I use the day one app and that is. 18:06.30 Paul Wow. 17:28.31 JD Calvelli Wow. 19:11.44 archpodnet The only real I guess gamification there is is again the streak and and that there's actually something to be said for that. So I'm oh and then I've got ah I've got like a Bluetooth enabled water bottle and I drink um my wife and I both try to drink a gallon a day and this thing yells at me by flashing if I don't drink a gallon a day and shows me on my watch how much I'm drinking. And we kind of compete each other that way and I'm like is that bad to be addicted to that game like because because I should be drinking a gallon of water a day right? like it's just you know or or whatever your number is and I'm just like in in some cases I think addiction is a bad word but also. It's not necessarily a bad thing when we talk about forming habits good habits. That's really just kind of good addiction. You know what? I mean in the in the way that I see it. So ah I don't know I feel like we should take that word back in some cases or come up with a new word and say it's actually okay to do this. 20:08.56 Paul E. 20:56.84 archpodnet And get and really get into it because it just makes you a better person. You know if that's if that thing is doing that. So just a little comment on that. 19:44.53 JD Calvelli Yeah, to your to your wally to your point I don't know much to say about it but to your point Chris like a good addiction is called a habit and a bad habit is called an addiction right? like and they're in some cases right? where it's like oh yeah I get up I go to the um I'm addicted to the gym. 21:25.24 archpodnet Um, exactly. Ah. 20:49.74 Paul Ah, spot on. 20:21.35 JD Calvelli People be like Wow good for you. You know what? I mean like I certainly am not although I probably should be but it's like oh I'm addicted to you know? ah whatever else right? that has a negative connotation then all of a sudden. It's like well now there's a problem. Um, so yeah I kind of support I do support that I think it's important to to maybe. 21:43.56 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 20:56.71 JD Calvelli Tease out the difference between like a harmful addiction and and just a genuinely good habit building you know experience like I think and I think games can be that right? like I think it can be a good habit building thing if the thing that it's building if the habit that it's building is good right? if the habit that it's building is bad then. Maybe now we can start talking about addiction again right. 22:54.42 archpodnet Yeah, indeed. Well I think Paul's got a but leave us real quick for another event. 22:25.42 Paul Yeah I've got to leave but um I would just love to queue up before I ditch and I'm going to have to listen to this bonus episode to to hear what you guys have to say about it but we have not touched on archeology with the exception of what I said about the virtual dig at all. 22:05.15 JD Calvelli So. 23:03.70 Paul Ah, in this whole episode and I wonder if you guys could spitball different kinds of ideas of how 1 might use gamification for archaeology and or probably especially for archaeological education and with that. Ah. 24:15.46 archpodnet I. 23:00.25 JD Calvelli Ah, thank you. 23:39.96 Paul Thanks for your time today guys I really really enjoyed this conversation take care. 24:28.72 archpodnet All right? Thanks Paul! Yeah I mean I've actually thought about I've actually thought about this quite a bit and there are a few people that are trying to make some educational games for archeology and and and really not necessarily archeology but more history. It's it's kind of hard to gamify. Archeology archaeology is just the science of collecting data to be honest with you. We just happen to to do it digging holes most of the times so it's ah it's really the interpretation of archaeology that that is the the greater I guess goal of that and I don't know some of the things I've thought about you know because a lot of times games have. 23:49.11 JD Calvelli Nice. 25:45.50 archpodnet You know, points involved experience points or you know points in some way and that is the measure of how you're doing and the challenge for game designers is to figure out what those points how you how you achieve those points and what they actually mean and I personally think something that's more in the history or archeology space is going to be something like knowledge points or ah. 24:56.31 JD Calvelli Here. 26:23.36 archpodnet Like that like the more you learn about something but then you got to make that learning fun. You know what I mean and I'm just I'm not 100% certain how to how to do that and get the point across that this is actually real information but but it's something that you're learning I think I've never played it but I've heard the the game assassin's creed is actually. 25:33.83 JD Calvelli Um, you yeah. 27:00.80 archpodnet Really historically accurate with some of the stuff they do. But then again they don't tell you what stuff is not historically accurate so you can you can you call it learning if you don't actually know. Yeah. 25:51.23 JD Calvelli Yeah, yeah, it's it's weird it occupies that like weird inbet betweenen space right? where it's like oh you're kind of learning something potentially like I played Assassinss Creed right 27:35.64 archpodnet Yeah. 26:17.75 JD Calvelli And it's very fun but I would not walk away from a sass creed calling it an educational game by any means like I definitely learned something like i. Oh yeah, there is like you know this element of ancient rome or Greece or whatever was true. Ah, but then I think you're right, there is that other element of like well how much of it is like you know? ah. Extrapolated right? or how much of it is is not actually historically accurate. There isn't ah ah, an easy way to tell that difference um to to your point about um, knowledge points and and acquisition of points. Um, just to just to throw a wrenchion maybe to your thinking a little bit um on that. 28:21.50 archpodnet And. Right? right. 27:35.53 JD Calvelli Is that in my experience making games which it admittedly is not ah, all too much yet. But I'm excited to continue to keep building them. Um, there's 2 things that I try to keep in mind when I when I build a game either on my own independently or with you know a group like risk and enable or anyone else. 29:29.92 archpodnet You. 28:13.13 JD Calvelli Um, is that every game needs to have a mechanic right? and every game needs to have a loop of some kind. Um, so a mechanic right is the thing that you're doing right? like what every game has to have a thing that you're doing if it doesn't have a thing that the player is doing. 29:40.80 archpodnet Um, Yeah. Red. 30:03.48 archpodnet Um. 28:51.50 JD Calvelli Right? Then you're watching a movie right? or you're reading a book or something else like that level of agency is critical when it comes to like developing a game and and figuring out specifically like what that piece of agency is going to be and how that supports your goals um is super important. 30:12.92 archpodnet Go ahead. 29:29.43 JD Calvelli Um, so maybe you know in the case of an of an educational you know, um, archeological game like maybe where I would start is saying something like oh well, what is the elements of archeological learning or archeological knowledge that I want to get across. 31:24.24 archpodnet Ah. 30:06.75 JD Calvelli Through this experience and then like how can I develop a mechanic around that thing that I want to learn or teach rather so that players will learn it by virtue of playing my game and then the loop is the other part of like well what? what brings them back. 32:00.66 archpodnet Threat. 30:42.19 JD Calvelli Right? Like what will keep them playing that thing. Um, but what's more important I think than the loop in the educational context is like the mechanic like what is the thing that the player does right? How how does the thing that the player does on the moment to moment basis while they play my game support or. 32:18.18 archpodnet Me. 31:21.11 JD Calvelli Refute ideally not refute but support the the ultimate goal that I'm trying to make right? So back in our case with algorithm. It was like okay, the mccannic that we chose was like dragging and dropping songs onto requests right. And the limitation or rather like the element of the mechanic that was equally as important is like and there's a time limit. Um, and the reason that we made that choice is because ultimately we're trying to make that point about how data is critical when it comes to making decisions right? especially on a timeframe. Um, and so in the case of you know I'm I'm not. 33:22.60 archpodnet Yeah. 33:42.12 archpodnet Right. 32:31.55 JD Calvelli Necessarily not even necessarily I am not particularly archaeologically knowledgeable. Um, although as I told you earlier my dad really wanted to be 1 but didn't end up becoming one. Um, you know the the question might if I were to approach that question. My None thing would be like okay, what is it about archeology that I want to teach and then how can I develop. 34:06.80 archpodnet Um, here. 33:10.61 JD Calvelli And activity. How can I develop some agency some some experience of agency that I can then you know um, have players do so that they learn that thing right. 34:51.76 archpodnet Right? Okay, yeah, that's that's really interesting and that's that's really where I get hung up on trying to think of where where. 33:45.99 JD Calvelli Um, yeah, it's always the hard part. 35:17.22 archpodnet Yeah, it's like what part what aspect of this? do you actually want to teach trying to nail that question down and and not have it be too. Broad is is incredibly Complex. You know it's It's what what do you give? What do you give up you know and what do you focus on to say this is gonna be the. This is going to be the thing The goal that we're trying to do here and then what's the mechanic around trying to do that. So yeah. 34:34.53 JD Calvelli Yeah, and something that something that we found you know with algorithm that was helpful for us was like you know back to that semi you know joking story that I told earlier about Steve was like you know the the thing that we want to teach right would be very different depending on the. Audience that we're trying to teach it to right? which is not in any way like a novel thing to say but like in our case, it was like oh because we're trying specifically to teach to you know, ah late elementary schoolers early middle schoolers right? We want them to learn something about this. 36:40.74 archpodnet Right. 35:46.50 JD Calvelli That helps us frame in our mind like what is it about data science that we want to teach and we came to the conclusion that in that case, you know we have to be honest and say like no Steve we can't teach a fourth grader how to do recursion. Or ah, rather like a you know regression analysis because j d didn't know how to do that until he got here and he's 22 like so it's like you know that helped us sort of like determine or rather nail down more specifically like oh what are the things that we want to teach around this target audience that we have in mind. Um, which for us was was a very helpful endeavor. Um, and I'm sure would be helpful in developing an archeological game as well. 38:24.26 archpodnet Yeah, and absolutely you know just a couple more questions for you. I'm curious. You obviously set out to teach data science to a certain you know a subset of humanity Fourth to None Graders. What are the. Concepts in your in your discussion meetings about this that didn't make it you ended up on music and and this concept for algorithm. But what are the some of the yeah some of the ideas that hit the floor and and didn't make it. Ah. 37:56.63 JD Calvelli Yeah, no for sure. Um, so why? why we chose what we chose? um first and then why we didn't choose what we didn't choose. Um, so we chose we chose music specifically because it it lies in that space of like to the None question that we wanted to prove that data was everywhere. 39:27.24 archpodnet Um, yeah. 39:53.66 archpodnet No Brett. 38:34.97 JD Calvelli Right? Even in places where we didn't necessarily where people don't necessarily think it is um, music was a great way of demonstrating that because the great people over at Spotify have done a lot of work right and made freely available their method of classifying songs right. 40:29.36 archpodnet Boom. 39:12.89 JD Calvelli Um, and that song classification is due to some algorithm on their end algorithm on their end in terms of like you know how they actually make those conclusions but the fact of the matter is that's kind of irrelevant for us. They make these conclusions. They give us this data right. And then people can say oh music is more than just the thing that I hear it's also all of these other intangibles that are equally important when it comes to understanding what the music is um and so that was a very easy place for us to say to make that insertion of like hey you know. 41:23.58 archpodnet Oh. 40:20.50 JD Calvelli You've heard music. You know I mean like everybody's heard music right? I hope right to a certain extent. Um you know and let's teach you something interesting about something you already know something about or think you know a lot about um but let's introduce something new um to to make it interesting for you? Um, so that was kind of why we decided to go music. 42:11.98 archpodnet Um. 40:59.90 JD Calvelli Some of the other things that we that we thought were interesting. Um, if I remember correctly we were we were doing a project on like or rather we were we were doing some research on like 3 point um distribution so like where do you get if you're playing basketball and you shoot a 3 42:44.16 archpodnet Okay. 41:34.77 JD Calvelli From like certain areas like where are you more likely to get it in than not get it in um, which was interesting from like ah you know from a from a data science perspective like from a statistics perspective right? which are very connected at Data Science Statistics obviously but what we found is that it didn't really translate that well into a game. 43:03.40 archpodnet E. 43:16.48 archpodnet Um, yeah. 42:10.67 JD Calvelli Where the mechanic would support the message right? It's back to that back to that point that that we were making before about um about like an archeology game like there is a there's a mechanic and there's a message and ideally in a very well-designed educational experience in my opinion right? The mechanic. 43:33.88 archpodnet Got. 42:49.85 JD Calvelli Not only supports the message but also like reinforces the message and so we just couldn't get over this point of like what are we going to have kids do like shoot three s and then tell them the percentage that they would have had right if they made it or if they didn't make it it just it didn't flow as easily it didn't have that same system in place. 44:19.44 archpodnet Jerk. 43:27.59 JD Calvelli Um, whereas like the music game had a very at least for us, you know, very clear throughput of like no we can have them create a playlist and through the creation of a playlist and responding of song requests. We can We can integrate rather um, the elements or the importance of Data. Um, in making those decisions right. 45:24.22 archpodnet Um, okay, Wow. That's it's so much that goes into these things so much it you got to think about yeah and the crazy thing is you guys were doing this in order to teach you weren't You weren't sitting in a you know a game developer studio trying to come up with the next big hit. You were your. You were thinking about it from a different perspective which which really makes me wonder about you know, like game is like professional game designers that just do this for a living and they're they're sitting in their room trying to figure out what the next big thing is I wonder if they consider ever consider education at All. You know the. In their in their game designs more than likely. No, they're just trying to say how can we get more people to download by and play this game but you know hopefully hopefully there's some of that in there. Um, yeah, sure. 45:30.91 JD Calvelli Yeah, there are a lot of great studios doing great things. Um you know, ah just shouts some out that I think do really cool stuff. Filament games does really interesting stuff. Shell games does really interesting Stuff. They're they are definitely people not sponsored by any of them. They definitely don't even know who I am. But you know I really respect what they do and I think that they're they're pushing, um, the envelope in terms of like making educational games more than just adding points and making a competition out of something Kids don't want to do right? and I think that that's really cool. Um, lighthouse is a vr. 47:45.18 archpodnet Sure right. 46:43.91 JD Calvelli Firm that's doing something really interesting with like Mendel's peapod experiment. Um in science which I think is really awesome. Um, so there there are groups that are doing it. Um, and it's really cool and for me I think I think you know I can't. 48:09.60 archpodnet E wow. 47:13.11 JD Calvelli Pretend to speak for all game developers in any way but I would say that I think a lot of my impetus for joining the space in the None place was because of that first experience I had with a game in a classroom right. 48:56.20 archpodnet Now. 47:39.83 JD Calvelli And I think that kind of put me not to be like cliche about it but that you know in a way that I didn't even realize kind of put me on a path in terms of like what are the what are the sorts of avenues of thought that I want to consider um as you know for the rest of my life. Yeah, well one of the things that really are meaningful to Me. And I think games are meaningful I think they have the potential to really you know tell interesting stories and and teach people really interesting things. Um I think you know still we're in the very young space for games and education in my opinion and I think there's a lot that can still be done to grow. What that looks like but you know that's ultimately where I want it to be um and for any game developer listening or perspective game developer listening you know, um, that's where I think a lot of meaningful work is happening and I think that's where you can really make a lot of great change in the world. Um, as cool as activision and blizzard and. 50:31.96 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 49:25.61 JD Calvelli And all the big guys are and as awesome as the stuff that they do is um you know it's cool trying to teach people Data science ah through a game as well. So maybe think about it if you hadn't before you know. 51:01.94 archpodnet Um, yeah, exactly and I'll tell you what my one of my favorite movies not from a cinematic standpoint but just the concept of it is inception and I mean that's. 50:04.57 JD Calvelli Um, ah ah. 51:33.94 archpodnet That really is kind of the goal at that age right is to you can't tell them what to do and you can't tell them hey if you do this dot dot dot This will happen to you but you can plant seeds in their minds for you know a direction to possibly go and once it's their idea they can run with it. You know, but if they don't know the the concepts and the. 50:18.77 JD Calvelli Yep. 52:11.84 archpodnet And the things like that exist then they're never going to go to it. You know I mean I I didn't even go to college right out of high school I went to I went into the navy and then I went into a flying program and then like eight years out of high school or something I was in I was in a ah university for ah for anthropology because I didn't know. Some of those opportunities were available to me right? because I just didn't learn that kind of stuff when I was younger that was my environment and teaching teaching kids this kind of stuff is really cool because I don't I don't think they really even hit these sort of concepts until maybe high school if they're in the right classes and then you know college if they decide to go that way. But. 51:28.50 JD Calvelli Um, in here. 53:25.90 archpodnet You know, letting them know this stuff like data science and things like that is actually really important and kind of hitting them at that age with that information is is key. 52:18.29 JD Calvelli Yeah, and you know first of all, thank you for your service and and None of all. Ah yeah, you know and and you know whether it's whether it's games. Ah, you know whether like playing the game. 53:46.12 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 52:47.81 JD Calvelli Demonstrates to you that this is an art form that can be utilized to do good in the world and that wasn't something that you thought about before like me right? or whether like playing the game introduces you to data science or any other concept in a way that you otherwise wouldn't have engaged with it right? and it left enough of a meaningful impact on you. 54:34.76 archpodnet For sure. 53:23.79 JD Calvelli Ah, that you were interested in continuing to think about it going forward. You know, either way in my mind. It's a win because it it you know, either introduces people to stuff that as we talked about earlier in the case of Data science or anything else. Super important. Um, and may potentially put them on ah on a path Spark an interest. 54:48.20 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 54:01.13 JD Calvelli Ah, to put them on a path that you know can help them grow as a person. Um and as a student and as a human you know or um, it brings more people and or it brings more people to the space of games that we can continue to try to make it um a place where we can do good. You know what? I mean. 55:32.90 archpodnet Um. 55:52.34 archpodnet Right? Well one last question I've got here I was on your website and there's some really cool ideas on that website for you know. Not only how to collect this kind of information like.. For example, you can submit your own wacky ideas and you know hopefully someday you guys will talk about it I Love that and there's other stuff on there that you can vote on that's awesome. 54:59.85 JD Calvelli Ah, yeah, we talked about all of them. We talked about all of them. Yeah, we we get that we get awesome ideas, please feel free to to send them our way We love talking about them. Um, yeah, but sorry continue. 56:47.20 archpodnet Yeah, now one of the ones I had to I had to log in some some way how I use Google to log in or something to upvote it because it only had None vote but it was ah um, using creating virtual reality classrooms as a competition for you know sticks and bricks classrooms. Um. I'm way into to vr in various ways not like gaming necessarily but like my virtual office I live on the road I live in a thirty six foot rv my wife and I travel the country we we both have remote. Yeah we both have remote capabilities. We have starlink for internet and we can just basically be anywhere and but I miss my twenty seven inch imac displays 56:18.30 JD Calvelli Oh super cool. 56:40.95 JD Calvelli Ah. 58:04.60 archpodnet But I used to have in my office because I just can't have that in the ah rv so I've got an appp on my oculus quest too that basically gives me the ability to spawn like None additional monitors in ah, in addition to my own and make them any size I want and basically you know I live in that environment and then a number of other things for like meeting spaces and stuff like that I just think it's. Kind of the direction we're going so I voted on that one but um, no one of my last questions regarding this education bit was are you is this part of ah, is there a master plan around education and maybe this level or just education in general and you guys are trying to find things to kind of fit this overall mission of this or. Did you just was data science and teaching data science to kids kind of one of those ideas that's just filtered in and you said let's run with this It's super cool or like I said does it fit into a does it fit into a larger concept. 58:21.41 JD Calvelli Yeah I think um, we had the benefit of having a lot of so people in the office that were interested in Tech and education and so it was like a combination of a bunch of people being in the right place at the right time. 01:00:18.48 archpodnet M. 59:00.19 JD Calvelli I Think um, as I think most good ideas or at least decent ideas tend to happen. Um, so you know we because we we had a bunch of people Obviously I came at it more from the games angle but we had some individuals in the office who were very interested in Vr and how that can be used for social good and you know that's a whole other. You know a podcast right? there. That's there's a whole lot there. You know what I mean which is super super interesting and super cool. Um, but it was kind of the genesis of their work combined with my interest in games and also this pre-existing work that we had done um in Data science. Ah that came together. 01:00:59.28 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 01:00:14.21 JD Calvelli Um, to sort of support this endeavor to create something interesting. You know what? I mean Um, and so I think the beauty of of risk in a lot of ways and the beauty of the space that we have is that it allows for that sort of cross-pollination of information and ideas that then can create. Um, you know the the breeding ground for some cool. 01:01:42.58 archpodnet M. 01:00:54.17 JD Calvelli Some cool stuff. So yeah I think I think you know we have done some research in Vr and and again, there's a lot of interest on our side as a team in terms of like doing more tech education tech for social good type of stuff. So hopefully algorithm can be. 01:02:45.72 archpodnet Sure. 01:01:32.81 JD Calvelli Ah, like I said earlier like a start of a conversation both within our team and hopefully for other people that are interested in sort of pushing the envelope in terms of like what tech can be in education and how it can be used. Um for good. 01:03:18.38 archpodnet All right? Well that sounds like a great place to end this interview. This has been fantastic J D This was super awesome and we really thank you for coming on. 01:02:15.33 JD Calvelli Yeah Chris thank you so much again. Thank you Paul as well. Although you're no longer with us. This was really really fun and I yeah I'm glad it was I'm glad it was glad it was fun for you all too. 01:03:59.24 archpodnet All right? Well and I want to make a special shout out to our members. Thank you for listening to this please share the original episode of this wherever your you know,? whatever your favorite socials are and share with your family and friends so we can get more people in and and learn more about this Stuff. So. Wish we could somehow gamify the archeology Podcast Network but we haven't figured out how to do that just yet. So ah that this best we can do is share it out and become a member and help us out. So Thanks for that and we'll see you next time. 01:03:13.65 JD Calvelli Ah. 01:03:33.31 JD Calvelli By.