00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everybody Paul how's it going. 00:05.91 Paul It's going pretty good I'm ah scrambling millions of different emails and phone calls and such because in ah in two days wait no today's Friday in three days I'm heading off to Saudi Arabia on another project and yeah, there's a lot of moving parts that have to be ironed out a lot of. 00:33.34 archpodnet Nice. 00:40.77 Paul Permits and medical reports and insurance and this and that and it's ah it's turning out to be a lot of work and preparation. But ah but I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be a fun project. How are you doing Where are you now. 00:54.36 archpodnet 3 01:09.00 archpodnet Awesome. Yeah, we are up in yeah, good. We're up in port towns in Washington which well we're just south of port towns in Washington which is over on the olympic peninsula. In fact, this afternoon we're going on a hike in the olympic national park which is I mean. Real close by here and it's just a really cool area with a lot of history. There's museums all over Port Townsend and we're checking some of those out this weekend as well because here in the United States it's actually a three day weekend and I completely forgot until somebody told me yesterday because Monday is the brand new federal holiday of juneteenth and I completely forgot about that. 02:09.61 Paul Um, yep. 02:27.56 archpodnet So yeah, um, so we got some good time for doing some things while we're here and ah on a more tech front just ah, a quick starlink. Update man this thing has just been killing it lately. The last 3 places we've been. I don't need to switch my service to to where we're at because we have the new Portability Portability feature turned on. But if you do switch your service address you get on you get more prioritized right? You don't get interrupted if there's too many people in your cell. 03:02.69 Paul Um. 03:31.36 archpodnet But each of the the last 3 places we've been. We've been able to easily pop in to the cell and have 0 interruptions in service and I mean I just did a speed test the other day like my wife was on a Zoom call at the time and I'm pretty sure something was streaming on the Tv while I did the speed test and it was still like 290 down 04:02.15 Paul Um, wow. 04:09.58 archpodnet Like 50 up like holy crap. This thing is it's just really killing it and as we're recording right now I got the Youtube notification right? before we started that there's another starlik mission heading up heading up into space as we speak. They're going to be lifting off soon. I think if they haven't done it already so they're they're launching. You know, several rockets a month with more satellites on it and it's just getting literally better and better and better. Um, every single month I don't know how Elon Musk just keeps his stuff going because I was I was also reading an article the other just last night about um, like the electric car manufacturers like Rivian was like. Number None in you know, hopeful possibilities for trucks electric trucks coming out and because their trucks are just super cool. They look like trucks but they look futuristic at the same time and they just announced a massive delay because of supply chain and funding issues and everybody's kind of shocked because like Ford and Amazon are huge investors in rivian. 05:28.13 Paul A r. 05:49.57 Paul Um, yeah. 06:06.86 archpodnet And ah, it's um yeah, it's it's crazy and yet tesla just keeps trunding along along with starlink and and all of his other endeavors. They just seem to be successful despite what you might think about Elon Musk all this stuff's working I don't know what to say about that. 06:36.69 Paul Ah, those rivians actually I was surprised because I've heard about the um about the supply chain issues that they were having and in the last week I've seen two of them as I drive around the New York area so on the road so they they actually exist I thought they were still vaporware. but but no they're they're out there. 07:01.66 archpodnet Yeah. They do I thought they did too and I saw oh I know they're super expensive and that makes the one I saw all that much more heartbreaking because the only one I've seen in the wild was in Seattle I guess it was probably about a month ago a month and a half ago was in the Seattle area driving up. 07:16.63 Paul And they are cool looking but cheese they're they're pricey. 07:51.98 archpodnet Um I four 5 and I saw one on the back of a flatbed pickup because it had been hit from behind the left rear quarter panel was just crunched was like where do you even take that because that's been one of their issues is actually rolling out. 07:55.79 Paul Ah, ah. 08:25.24 archpodnet Vehicles in places where they can service their vehicles easily right? So um, they're trying not to roll vehicles out before they have services available and ah and that was one of the things that article I was reading mentioned that Rivien hasn't really been able to do is you know Tesla had the ability because not only did he just inject a lot of his own cash into it. But. Got a lot of massive investment and they had the ability to do the grow none profit later model which is difficult to do in car manufacturing. You know, easier to do in like some models but in car manufacturing grow. First means you have I mean literally billions of dollars to throw at this thing. Before you can actually make a return and and hope that you make a return. So yeah, they were able to rapidly expand and put up dealerships and service centers and all kinds of stuff and that's what's keeping them going so anyway. 09:34.37 Paul A. 09:54.30 Paul Well speaking of seen something in the wild the other day you know getting stuff to go in the field I was over the target and I saw your wife Rachel and I went to go hey Rachel and I realized that no she probably was on the other coast and this was just her doppelganger. 10:10.22 archpodnet Ah. 10:33.84 archpodnet Ah, nice. Ah. 10:29.37 Paul So I'm really glad I embarrass myself calling out to a complete stranger in the store. 10:44.90 archpodnet nice nice I'll have to tell her that but she does have family up in upstate New York so maybe ah, maybe ah, a slightly close genetic copy was throwing around that area. That's right. 11:00.21 Paul Was roing around the street The danberry. 11:21.34 archpodnet Ah, man all right? Well today's episode as we mentioned in the ah in the introduction is about an article I just I was just trolling some stuff looking for this and and I don't know. Actually it's been just such a busy couple of weeks for me too and and I didn't really have anything. This episode honestly leading all the way up to the recording yesterday and then we we kind of transitioned but I found this article in plus one that came out literally this week yeah Yeah, 12:04.73 Paul Um, literally yesterday as of the day that we're recording so whereas you didn't have much time to ah to do a lot of research I've had even less and so as we'll become abundantly clear I've only been able to quickly skin this article. 12:41.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, indeed and let's get into it then so the article again is from Plus one so it's open access. You can check out the article link in the show notes and also this is promoting new software that the authors of this article have actually put together and the link. 12:39.19 Paul But it seems really really cool. 13:21.48 archpodnet To that software is also in the show notes it's from source forage that you can get it and it's ah the user manual everything is in there according to them I didn't bother clicking on that to be honest because one of the other requirements before you get too. Excited is a windows machine running windows 10 or higher. So. 13:50.85 Paul M. 14:01.60 archpodnet I'm on a mac and and can't actually try it out, but it sounds really cool and I actually don't have any 3 d scans of artifacts either which you know you kind of need so but we'll get into that all right? So this journal article again like Paul said written June or at least published on June sixteenth by 14:08.37 Paul Yeah, yeah. 14:38.34 archpodnet I don't know how to pronounce this person's None name leor ah gros John Leor gross John I think and others and ah you know a number of people on this ah on this thing but they're all basically from the ah where is it the computational archeology laboratory of the hebrew university of ah jerusalem and. It sounds like these guys have been putting together. Um, they they say in the article here that they've been seeking technological innovations to archeological questions for over a decade and they've been looking at a number of different things to you know like I said essentially use technology in various ways from software programs to hardware. To do and and to do different things better in archeology right? and I always appreciate that kind of a thing what they're addressing in this article is essentially ah the. Problem of artifact analysis and more specifically Lithic analysis when you're talking about say projectile points and and you know maybe utilize flakes and so like that but tools Lithic tools and and points and stuff and it really is something that I have thought about actually pretty extensively. it's ah it's the problem of measurement. 16:51.50 Paul Meaning. 16:59.16 archpodnet Right? You got you got 1 person sitting either in the it's especially worse out here in the american west because we typically on fields survey. Don't collect anything right? Unless it's really special and we get permission from the agency that we're working for say hey we found something super cool here's a picture can we collect it like a Clobus point is an obvious collection point. 17:30.39 Paul Me. 17:38.96 archpodnet Ah, but other stuff could be as well if you if you think it's you know, rare enough or or a good enough example of something that that should be collected but typically it's no collect and that's what it says in your permit. So since it's no Collect. We're taking attribute data in the field and you know. Honestly, we take like 3 measurements in the field typically of a projectile point length Width and thickness and even that is just like setting it on your you know setting it on your ruler or on your your scale bar or something like that and just kind of estimating it but we estimate like to the nearest millimeter and if you're if it's kind of a thicker point and you're. You got some parallax error going on like you're leading one way or the other you might be off by a few millimeters and and that's how you're measuring that for basically forever like those are going to become the measurements of that point and that along with your photographs are going to basically influence interpretation. 18:58.41 Paul Is it. 19:24.48 archpodnet For who knows how long possibly years to come for that particular artifact because no one may ever see that again and it's it's likely that no one will ever see that again. So those those errors in recording could be significant. Um, if depending on who's doing it and and we're basing a lot of interpretation and analysis. 19:19.69 Paul Right. 20:03.60 archpodnet On those measurements. 19:58.19 Paul Yeah, and that um this article is is focused on on Lithics and you were just talking about example with Lithics but I see the same thing all the time with ah with ceramics. You know you take a pot shirt and hopefully a nice good rim shirt 20% or more of the rim. 20:25.22 archpodnet Um. 20:41.20 archpodnet So yeah. 20:37.95 Paul Ah, but you hand that same rim shirt to 2 different people and you're going to end up with 2 different drawings that there will be differences between them. You know we try to ah to use the same methodologies and so that the differences between 1 person drawing and another person drawing. 20:51.80 archpodnet Threat Brett. 21:17.97 Paul Aren't are drastic but they're still there and ah and typically you don't then save all those barely diagnostic rim Shirts. You throw them back out in the pottery dump at the end and this is talking from an excavation. Ah but in the same way that you're. You know 3 measurements and photograph that you took of that object in the field are going to be the only record of it. Ah these these pottery profile drawings that you're doing are going to be the only record of it and so you're trying to reduce that variability trying to make things that are essentially Metric. Be. 22:01.80 archpodnet No. 22:28.47 Paul Very much more reproducible and and very much more accurate is ah is really good. So that's where I'm excited about this article. 22:42.20 archpodnet Yeah, yeah indeed and you know finding finding good ways to to I guess to make these measurements you know I mean 3 d scans are 1 thing but then you need to actually analyze the 3 d scans and that's where the software comes in right. 23:08.67 Paul Ah. 23:21.38 archpodnet And just to back up on the backstory just a little bit and and they're setting the stage in the beginning of the article right? and we've kind of alluded to this but more specifically they say in reference to the importance of accurate measurements is the variability of attributes and this is almost exactly from the article here. Um, of artifacts over time or space is usually interpreted as indicating technological cultural or functional distinction and transition while homogeneity. So you know similarities um is interpreted as indicating continuity or influence. So we base interpretation of cultural interpretation. A lot on you know what do these artifacts like accurate measurements of the artifacts and then comparison of those artifact assemblages either through time in the same site or across space with other sites right? and then also through time there's a lot of ways that we measure that I guess. Comparison between those artifacts between different cultures I mean that's the bread and butter of north american prehistoric archaeology because almost nothing else persists right? I mean on the East Coast in some areas and the west you'll get pottery like you said, but to be honest, almost everywhere. Lithics are a standard. Pottery is a variable that you may get groundstone is a variable that you may get um and and other you know other things that you know could pop up in the archaeological record and they're extremely valuable information wise when you get them but lithics are ah all a constant I feel like they just persist because they're rocks. 26:05.83 Paul The. 26:21.28 archpodnet And they're everywhere. So um, yeah, so accurately being able to you know to measure these things now here's where a little bit of commentary is going to come in. Um, that being said, if they're you know what? they're saying actually if you really interpret this they're saying. Saying that we haven't had accurate measurements basically forever because we haven't been able to do it down to you know the submiimeter level with a high quality three D Scan and I'm wondering with the variability in just a stone to begin with and how that stuff flakes and you could have an expert flitnapper working with the best material. 27:19.25 Paul M. 27:39.60 archpodnet And have them make 10 of the same thing and while they may look the same if you're just setting them on a table. There is going to be some some small variations in these just because of the way stone fractures and the way things work and I'm wondering if that variability a none or None either way in measuring and flake densities and stuff like that if you're sketching. You know, does that matter. That's the biggest question I would ask. They're hyper accurate with this software but I'm like but yeah, it's kind of a fuzzy thing to begin with does it matter is all our interpretations basically wrong or if we were able to actually reanalyze everything we've done for the last fifty years what we come up with in you know, wildly different theories. 28:49.41 Paul E. 28:57.58 archpodnet That's kind of what I'm wondering with this I mean I'm not downplaying the need for 3 d scans and more accurate data measuring. But I'm like is everything we've done really kind of crap or is it. You know close enough. You know what I mean. 29:16.13 Paul Yeah I would I would guess and I'm not a lithicist but I would guess it's probably close enough. Ah just like you're kind of guessing or strongly implying that it's ah it's probably close enough. That said though, if this can be done again to to systematize and to. 29:36.80 archpodnet Um, yeah. 29:56.11 Paul And to standardize to reduce the variability of the measuring as opposed to the variability in the creation of the object. That's probably a good thing even if it's being measured to a precision that that's greater than what's warranted if it's. 30:07.96 archpodnet Oh. 30:31.84 archpodnet Right. 30:35.41 Paul Adding a whole lot of extra time and complexity into the workflow to measure things at a at a scale at a precision that is meaningless than well why? why? bother and I'm going to trust that. That's not what they're doing here. But I suppose there is that. 31:00.44 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed. Yeah. 31:14.49 Paul That problem I think about that all the time I always talk about total station surveying but you know I can measure things down to the millimeter but depending you know where exactly on the the feature or on the soil surface you're taking that point elevation or if you have the pointy tip on the on the prison Pole. Or the flat tip on the prison pole. Yeah, that millimeter of of precision from the total station might be more precise and. 31:58.82 archpodnet Um, yeah. 32:15.69 Paul Probably is more precise than the variability you get just depending on where the ah the prison pole holder decides to put the Rod doesn't mean I'm going to get rid of total station surveying though. 32:33.32 archpodnet Yeah, exactly? yeah, it's ah no, of course not., But yeah, you have to just take into account that yeah this is you know we do want to use the most accurate recording methods possible. You know within. Within the ease and quickness of use because budgets are always a concern. We don't have years to do this, you know, recording and Analysis. We Want to get it done quickly but efficiently so and that's where I think the software really kind of turns a corner with some of the other things that are that are possibly comparable is the ease of use of it. So. Let's get into a little more about the software on the other side of the break.