00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the archaeo tech podcast episode 83 and we're talking about an article in plus None um, artifact three d is the name of the software that they're promoting here basically and let's talk about a little bit about you know, essentially. The background of the software and what they what they expect to do with it. So the people in the article the authors, the study authors they say they've been using 3 d modeling technology and computational analytical methods to describe and analyze Lithic and other artifacts and people have actually been doing this for I would say a number of years at this point None d. 00:34.10 Paul Are. 01:14.72 archpodnet None d analyzing of artifacts like 3 d scanning of artifacts is again like I mentioned in the case of Crm not exactly standard unless you're doing excavation and you can take that stuff back to the lab and then do it but then even then I don't think I don't think just from what I've heard through the grapevine that most. Firms are doing regular 3 d scanning of artifacts with high-sol resolution three d scanners in the lab. Um, and I don't know exactly how long that takes for o lithic artifact from setup in the scanner to Teardown and setting up another one I'm not really sure how long that process takes I don't um I don't get that it. 01:29.37 Paul Right. 02:30.72 archpodnet That long of a process. Um, it might just depend on the the type of artifact you have and how you position it within the scanner because I I would assume because it's got to be held up by something. It's not just floating in space. Ah you might have to scan it twice to get. Most of the artifact and then also get the portion that you know you were so supporting it by with some sort of ah you know gum or something like that. You know that sticky What is that called? Um, you know what? I'm talking about not like gum for real. Yeah, something like that right actually just like using Gum. Although that probably work. Ah, but ah. 02:42.23 Paul Ah, the plasticcene you're not using Gums Ah, ah. 03:39.20 archpodnet Yeah, you know what? I mean so some sort of holder and then you got to scan that part too because it's invariably probably you know, concealing something that needs to be scanned so I don't know how long that takes and if it's worth it for Crm firms to even do that because you could potentially find. I mean hundreds if not None of lithics but does it take longer to sit there and take manual measurements and then type them into a spreadsheet with the possibility that those measurements could be inaccurate I don't know you know I don't know I don't know what the deal is there. 04:03.15 Paul I don't know I think that this is the one of the directions that our field is going though. People have been doing you know, many different kinds of 3 d scanning photogrammetry which I've been playing with a lot lately. But then also using dedicated 3 d scanners of various kinds and. 04:47.48 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:38.69 Paul The prices have been going down the time that it takes to process. It has been going down the the expense of the equipment is I just had price didn't I Ah ah me repeating myself is going up. Um. 05:42.20 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 05:13.53 Paul But yeah, so this increasingly becoming parts of people's toolboxes. So I'm looking at the ah the article here and the the part that's on set is what you're asking here about the the initial scanning of the of the objects so to to speed things up, you have to. 06:11.30 archpodnet Ah. 05:48.47 Paul Be able to scan them faster than you would be able to photograph and draw and describe. But then for the measurement that also has to be faster and more accurate than the taken from the 3 d scans has to be faster more accurate than what you would do with traditional means. 06:37.84 archpodnet M. 06:18.59 Paul So there are a lot of places where this might actually be a slower process even if it is more accurate more precise in the end. Um, and then it becomes a question of of you know the the benefits and the tradeoffs that you make for that when we were in the field somebody had posted I think on Twitter um. Ah, system that they were working on that was doing None pot shirts at a time hung up from like a clothes dryer. You have wire hanger arrangement and our ceramicist Sata was just the Gaga. We just like oh my goodness make it's so much easier because they. 07:44.20 archpodnet Oh wow. 08:08.24 archpodnet That's awesome. 07:36.69 Paul They could scan those 8 potures now poturs are less complicated typically than ah than one of these hand axes. For example that they're showing in this article. But but if that's true that they can do 8 at a time and get good full 3 d scans that they could then. 08:16.82 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. Um. 08:16.35 Paul Take those measurements and that doesn't have to be done real-time and that's another thing is that you can if you have the three D scan. It's good enough. You could do the measurements not in the field you you don't need the object anymore to take those measurements so it allows you then to offload that work to somebody That's not on site or to take those scans with you and do them. 09:05.36 archpodnet M. 08:56.23 Paul When you're no longer. Actively you know, spending a zillion hours a day in the field. 09:38.20 archpodnet Right? right? And what you said too about speed and efficiency about you know I was just talking about the scans as far as measurement but you mentioned photographing and illustration as well and that is a really good point because you know we always. 09:26.27 Paul And. 10:09.60 archpodnet Take photographs of artifacts for documentation Purposes. You know, reporting stuff like that and and often we do illustrate them as well because the photographs don't always. Obviously show you where all the flake scars are and that is the main purpose of illustration is to basically show you where the flake scars are and kind of and how they're oriented right because flake scars tell a lot about how an artifact was manufactured and it's manufacturing tells you a lot about the people who did it in their skill level in doing that and so. 10:05.69 Paul Um, right. 11:06.76 archpodnet When you factor in photograph and illustration and the fact that this software can actually do that as well. You know it can take you can use the the artifacts for illustrative purposes from the software and export that straight as something you can use in a report. But what's also cool is you can take the according to this article you can decide you can to do like a cross section and and do that slice wherever you want and show that cross section and then the measurements of that cross section in what was also really cool None d or 3 d measurements and 2 d would be. You know if you've got like a. 11:20.93 Paul A. 12:18.62 archpodnet Like a concave shape to ah to ah ah to a liic two d would just be from sideto side. It would just be the straight linear measurement from side-to-side and 3 d would of course take the shape into account and that's really cool too because I don't think I don't think really anybody is doing those kinds of measurements on a regular basis. They might do it if they're doing a special study on something. But on like a regular basis who the hell is doing that kind of measurement and maybe that sort of measurement could actually tell us something once we do ah a comparative analysis across a large assemblage that that we didn't even know that we were looking for right? It might be more diagnostic. It might be you know more. I don't know just telling of of something we don't even really understand yet. So there's the way 3 d scans work. You know there's points all over this thing and it's using you know, depending on the scanner I mean it's literally taking millions of points and and putting them all over this maybe not millions on a projectile point but lots of points and. They're using all of those attribute data and they've put together all of these calculations and stuff you don't have to write any scripts. You don't have to do anything. It's putting all of that into this software as None complete package and then you know spitting out these? um. These measurements that like I said we wouldn't have had otherwise so there's a lot of value then. 14:12.55 Paul Yeah I did think it was interesting. The um, the slices through the through the artifacts. It's not a new idea to do something like this I mean I did slices through I reconstructed for my m a back in 98 ah part of the site of or. 15:01.24 archpodnet Yeah, sure. 14:48.57 Paul And and then did slices to get the relative elevations of um of the the different tombs that were there and that was all in Cad software. But as I just remembered that is I was going to say what the other thing that this reminded me of which is um, hey so I did that a long time ago. Nannn. 15:32.72 archpodnet Um. 15:55.84 archpodnet Ah O G Slicer um 15:24.35 Paul Ah, no I was going to say was that slice actually that's gpr slice. We were just using that on a project I was working on a couple days ago ah doing gpr of a a parking lot in Brooklyn. Um. 16:14.98 archpodnet M. Um, yeah. 15:56.31 Paul To see where the original house foundations were and where their cern and privy were but gpr slice is very well-known software than anybody that's using gpr is probably using and you can take slices hence the name ah through through the yeah the earth from your your Gpr imaging. 16:36.52 archpodnet M. 16:55.80 archpodnet Um. 16:33.75 Paul Ah, but I was thinking a lot of ah when I was reading this in the article of medical uses medical tomography right? So we're used to seeing cat scans um Mris where they take slices through somebody's head so that they can see a tumor or something. Um, and yeah, it's it's it's obvious. 17:19.81 archpodnet And. 17:31.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:10.21 Paul Application of this and like you're saying it might be extremely useful, not quite sure yet. But I do like that like so many things It's not just an archeology thing that it's ah it's a set of techniques a set of visualizations a set of probably software and algorithms that. 18:05.64 archpodnet Right. 17:48.10 Paul Could be adapted from other places like from construction or medical. 18:29.60 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely and I think we've kind of alluded to this but I've got to say specifically in case, you're interested in this software that this software is not the engine using that they're using to actually do the scans. 18:28.85 Paul Um, right. 19:04.52 archpodnet I don't know if we actually specifically said that I want buddy to get confused. This is not 3 d scanning software. You can't hook it up to your scanner if you have None and then pull the stuff straight in but it will accept what I saw were a number of common 3 d scan formats so you have to three d scan these in some other way and they did actually say that. You know if you don't have like a high-resolut optical scanner just lying around your house or your lab and you can't like do that. Um, they have been able to get decent data from Photogrametric scans so you know I doubt I doubt you get too good a data from something like what is that there's the um. 19:12.15 Paul Um, in so. 20:19.48 archpodnet There's a couple of like free sketch free three d apps you know I'm talking about for like smartphone where you can just take a series of pictures and then it stitches together. Ah kind of a fuzzy 3 d rendering I don't know if something like that would work so well I mean it might if you got good lighting conditions and you're steady with the the camera and the and the object who knows I mean data. 19:52.87 Paul All right, right? right. 20:55.68 archpodnet Stuff like that is typically you know garbage in garbage out kind of thing or good in good out. But yeah I mean I think ah some sort of 3 d photogrametric scans of something it sounds like they're getting decent data off of that. Go ahead. 20:43.41 Paul Yeah, so those um those programs for your phone What they tend to do is not make that complex of a model but then the realism comes from the texture mapping right? So you don't necessarily have to show every wrinkle in somebody's skin if you scan to face. Ah. 21:32.72 archpodnet Um, yeah. 21:20.65 Paul Because the dark spots that you know from the photo part of the ah of the Scan are going to give the impression of the wrinkles there. Um and I don't think that that would work or I'm sure it would work but I don't think it would work with the accuracy that you're trying to use this. 22:04.20 archpodnet M. 21:57.89 Paul Software for unless you have a really highly detailed Accurate Scan initially you know not not one of these phone good enough scans that you then texture map because the examples of they show none of them have texture maps and yet you can see the texture um of the ah of the stone. 22:43.42 archpodnet Right. 22:33.71 Paul Because they're such highly detailed.. There's so many None of points on these objects. There's such highly detailed 3 D scans to start with I would be curious to see what would happen if they were to then apply the texture map on top of these just for visual purposes. Not for measurements. Ah, because I'll bet that these things look stunning. 23:43.64 archpodnet Yeah, and I mean one of the reasons I was thinking about you know like ah like a phone app or something like that is again the case where you're not doing collection right? So if you can get a good enough scan and and I'm wondering more specifically about something like the iphone 12 because the iphone 12 has the. 23:28.57 Paul Um, oh yeah. 24:22.86 archpodnet Upgraded camera system. So not only are they higher resolution cameras but it's also got the ah what is it the the like point mapping for the Ar system inside the camera so it has the ability if turned on through an application to actually you know reach out and digitally map. 24:06.21 Paul Um. 24:56.00 archpodnet Surface of something. Not what I don't know what resolution it's doing that with and if you were able to combine that feature with digital scanning software. You might actually be able to get some pretty decent scans out in the field. Ah you know, just using your using your phone. You know if you've got the right material the right hardware so that would be cool. 24:55.17 Paul Yeah, no I've got the I've got the iphone 12 and I got it in part because of that lidar scanner on the back. Um, and I've used it and it works fine on the scale of rooms and I have scanned some smaller objects with it. But those scans the the lidars and. 25:39.52 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 25:30.49 Paul Fine-grained enough for for use on an object Really it relies like I was just saying on the texture mapping to give it a good sense of realism on a room scale. It does work and I do think that this is actually a potentially useful tool especially for people that are doing you know, standing structures so somebody is doing architectural history For example, um. 26:13.00 archpodnet Um. 26:38.62 archpodnet Um, yeah. 26:08.39 Paul It's not a replacement for a full measurement and you know elevation plans and whatnot of of the building but it definitely is good enough to replace snapshots. Um, which is usually part of somebody's workflow. Yeah. 27:03.78 archpodnet M. 27:14.70 archpodnet Yeah, I'm looking at ah a lot of the 3 d scanners currently available that mention the use of the lidar lidar functionality and almost all of it is room scale almost all of it is room scale at least in there there you know their representations here. 27:05.10 Paul Um. 27:49.52 archpodnet There's one called smart three d scan that actually shows smaller objects I have to try that out anyway, lots of cool stuff in there. Let's ah, take a break and come back and wrap up this discussion about the new software 3 d artifact or sorry artifact three DA None d artifact artifact three d who knows you'll find it either way. We'll be back in a minute.