00:00.80 archpodnet Welcome back to the None and final segment of the Archeo Tech Podcast Episode 83 and we're talking about this new software Artifact 3 D from an article in plus one written by the people who created the software and they have actually written about this before they say as they're incrementally. You know, developing features of the software. But now they're calling this essentially a full package like it's it's ready to go. It is free for academic use I don't know if we mentioned that and I don't know how they prove academic use if you can just go there and download it or if you have to demonstrate an edu address or something like that I'm not really sure. 00:19.73 Paul Um. 01:10.26 archpodnet But the actual text says free for academic use. So I think if you're listening to this. You can probably check it out. So the other thing that I think is interesting about this and we could. We could get more into the nuts and bolts on you know what? this is doing and how it's doing it. But it's doing a lot of things just keep that in mind and. When you think about something like that, especially with software. You're probably thinking. Okay, yeah, but like what do I need to know to be able to use this thing. How complicated is this and to be honest, it sounds like the interface has been designed in order to be as simple as possible. You know a good graphic user interface a gui they call it everybody calls it. A gy and ah, it's supposed to be just like incredibly intuitive and that has been obviously with newer technologies especially in in use in archeology a lot of times they aren't polished enough to have that you know ease of use factor. You have to have a high knowledge in some sort of scripting or programming or. You know some other technologies in order to be able to actually use something Paul's talking about total stations earlier I mean I remember seeing people for some reason I was always kind of good at it not like tooting my own horn here but just like leveling the total station always seemed to be a problem for a lot of people. You know we with note with laer level. 03:11.37 Paul Ah. 03:40.00 archpodnet Even and it was just like impossible. They're just like spending an hour trying to get the damn thing level like it's just it's just moving it around. It's just get it level. But anyway this sounds like they've designed it to where you don't need to have a high skill level in actually. 03:31.19 Paul If. 04:16.46 archpodnet You know this kind of Software. You do obviously need to know something about your 3 D scans or have somebody else. Do it. But then once you drop in the 3 D scans which you can do one at a time or you can do an entire assemblage in a folder all at once and just let it crunch in the background while you're doing other stuff. They specifically say that then you can come back and and do your. Do your analysis and it's really just sounds like it's push button analysis I Want to see this I Want to see this I Want to see this and then you know export those results and mass. 04:50.11 Paul Yeah, ah the analysis interesting I don't know that we mentioned it yet. But we have said that they're they're looking at lithics of various kinds and the software is not a general purpose 3 d artifact measuring software. It's really geared towards analyzing lithics. 05:27.72 archpodnet Yeah. 05:28.71 Paul And not just little flakes but entire entire tools so you know take that both as ah, you know, maybe ah, a point of caution. You're not going to be able to use this for any other kind of artifact probably but also ah. 05:53.60 archpodnet Um. 06:05.89 Paul Yeah, that having a very specialized tool like this does then allow you to simplify it. You know if you're only going to take None kinds of measurements off of a particular class of artifacts. You don't have to build in every other possibility. You don't have to you can have a number of presets. They're going to work 90% of the time instead of having everything be fully customizable and tweakable. So that you could use it on not just the one that you did the artify class that you've designed it for but also anything else. Anybody could throw at it. So actually I think that's good design is to ah to simplify and. 07:20.26 archpodnet M. 07:12.93 Paul Not make a fully general purpose tool if it's going to overly complicate things and it looks like they did a ah good job at least also I haven't used it yet I don't have any 3 d scans of lithicx around that I could protest maybe I could download 1 from um from thingaverse. 08:06.12 archpodnet You. 07:49.37 Paul Because I know I printed out a 3 d model of a ah of an achelean not aian of a a clovis point once so you can probably find some online. 08:19.56 archpodnet Yeah, and I think possibly the um what is it sketchfab? Um I think you could possibly download from ah virtual curation laboratories website. Yeah because. 08:14.27 Paul Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely can. You're right. 08:49.70 archpodnet The vcu has with Bernard um over there the virtual curnet curation laboratory they're always publishing stuff that they scan and they scan literally everything including themselves. Um, if you ever see if you ever see Bernard from vcu at a conference. He likely has a a plastic business card that has this 3 d scanned face on it. And that's pretty cool and like little statues of himself. It's it's fun. They scan everything. So yeah, you're right? if you want to try this out. You probably can get pretty good, high quality 3 d scans from a number of places on the web so that is really cool and and None thing. 09:14.87 Paul Ah. 10:05.20 archpodnet You know I Want to read this paragraph that was later on in the in the conclusions. Um, they say the artifact three D toolkit encompasses the entire workflow of artifact processing analysis documentation and publication and then they have a sentence that says once Users require 3 D scans So not the entire Workflow. You still have to acquire 3 D scans Ah but the software then processes these 3 D models positions them consistently which is important based on their intrinsic geometric properties and generates views measurements and sections that have been selected algorithmically without user input Bias or interpretation. Unbiased system of object manipulation and orientation forms. The basis for a series of subsequent measurements and analysis that can quantify any aspect of the artifacts Morphology. So consistency is the thing they're really going for here and consistency allows you to do you know? really good analysis that is unbiased. 11:18.91 Paul Are. 11:36.19 Paul That's um, crap I Just lost my train of art. 12:09.22 archpodnet I know I just kept rolling on there. 11:50.29 Paul Give me just second here. Yeah yeah, so we are at 6 minutes in this is where I loveb everything let's see years aid about the yeah, the scans the source of the scans a consistency. Oh okay I know I gonna see. 12:22.70 archpodnet Yeah. 12:39.20 archpodnet Yeah. 12:26.67 Paul Yeah, so I think it's interesting that they they skip over that None bit about you know how you acquire the scan and we just suggested that you could download 1 saw from the internet to to test and and you suggested sketch fab I suggested thingaverse and this is actually something else that I kind of like about this article is that. 12:59.12 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 13:05.25 Paul We've seen a lot of discussion about how to make 3 D Scans I've got a whole bunch of articles I've been reading and different methodologies and basically it's just being used as kind of a primary documentation like a photograph and. That's as far as it's going. It's being used as an educational tool so you could show people and they can kind of play with it online without having to have the real object in front of them. Those are valuable uses but they always felt a little lacking to me and this article here is. 14:25.48 archpodnet But. 14:13.27 Paul Actually pushing it through the other end of it say you know it's not good enough just to have that Scan here's something real, not that the other things aren't real, but here's something very rigorously applied to the sciences in our field that you can do with that Scan and so. 15:01.10 archpodnet M. 14:50.69 Paul Yeah I hadn't really realized but that I had a sense as I was looking at this of ah, finally now we can oh it becomes a real usable tool in the toolbox. It's not just kind of a whizb bang thing so that you can show off artifacts to other people. 15:22.38 archpodnet Like yeah. 15:43.40 archpodnet Exactly and and you're right? That's I mean that's often what 3 d scans are used for right just to to show off and say look at this. This is super cool. But yeah, unless you're doing something with that data like you said it's ah it's like what's the point and the fact that this thing can to crunch and compare and do it all in None package is. Is kind of the dream right? because some of these technologies while interesting and effective are tedious right? They're still tedious. Um, and and this thing you know doing the all in one solution. Um I almost call it like the Apple model right? because that's but always been. Apple's thing is let's provide a device that does everything. 16:16.73 Paul Yeah. 16:33.37 Paul Who. 16:59.64 archpodnet And ah, that's that's what they're trying to do here and I totally appreciate that and they're trying to do it in a way that is actually easier for people to use now I think the only you know the real knowledge you need to have is you need to understand Lithic analysis. Otherwise you're not going to understand what it's showing you. But um I think you'll. From the sounds of the article again I haven't used it either but from the sounds of the article and some of the images they've shown it sounds like if you understand Lithic analysis already and you know how to do all that stuff then what the thing is telling you is going to make sense to you. You know it's gonna it's gonna be logical. So um, ah it noted that it's. 17:38.65 Paul M. 18:10.50 archpodnet You know if your 3 d scans are good enough. It can identify and and illustrate Lithic scars as well like the flake scars we were talking about that's really cool. Um I don't know of software in the past. That's really been able to to do that I mean 3 d scanning software can obviously show you those really closely but to actually. Map identify and analyze those Lithic scars I'm not sure if anything else really does that that I'm aware of that we've at least talked about so that's pretty neat. Yeah, and and I do note somewhere near the end in the conclusions I think they're just talking about how awesome this is and how it just does everything and then they have a little. 18:36.79 Paul No I'm not aware of anything either. 19:23.84 archpodnet Cover their ass moment where they say. However, you know we don't yet recommend discarding your pen and paper you know for illustration. But I think they kind of do recommend that they're just afraid to say it. So. 19:23.55 Paul Ah, we don't have to go into it now. But there's ah you know we've we've talked about this before that I think that even if you do have scans photographs and so on there is something very important to drawing because it it is inherently mediated by. 20:08.44 archpodnet Yeah. 19:57.41 Paul Your experience as a as ah, a specialist and so you see things that and assign various importance to things that the camera has no knowledge of. 20:22.80 archpodnet Oh. 20:38.60 archpodnet Right? right? Well and what while I agree with that right now I think we are leading to the point with high quality easy to achieve three d scan so it's that 3 d scanning technology comes down in price and and ease of use I think those. High high high like sub millimeter resolution scans I think that when those come down combining like these guys do the algorithmic nature of it so in and the computational Ai of being able to do that interpretation right? because we've had scans for a long time and and we have scans now. That can get those microf flake fractures that you can't even see with your naked eye right? if you put it in the right environment and you scan these things the scanner will see it. But it's dumb. It doesn't know what it's looking at right? It doesn't understand that oh this is actually important this is edgeware and you know you missed it. But I saw it but I don't know it's edgeware because you haven't told me it is but. 22:07.33 Paul Um, who. 22:31.48 archpodnet With these computational you know algorithms inside that you can say hey anytime you see this kind of thing that's edgeware and that's important and we can take a look at that and and recognize that then you can throw in and a whole assemblage of None d scans and say oh all these have useware on the edge and all these have you know this and that stuff. Once the software can really get to that level and it sounds like they're trying to get close with this if not already there in some cases. That's where I think it really comes in because not everybody is is really technologically proficient and capable and seeing that kind of detail in olithic artifact. 23:15.67 Paul Yeah, well ah that this is going to throw the whole conversation in different direction. But that's something that is also overlooked in the in this article is that is useware they talk about it a couple of times but only insofar as as obscures the ah. 23:57.48 archpodnet Um, yeah. 23:54.99 Paul The overall shape or some of the facets some of the scars that are there. Um, like it's ah, an accident like useware isn't an important feature of the R object they're They're really focused on the on the creation of the object. 24:18.80 archpodnet Um. 24:26.31 Paul And how that and analyzing the ah the dimensions and the scars and so on to get a better sense of the creation. But as anybody that does any lithic any work with Lithics knows um how the objects are used is a critically important part of the of the life of that artifact and they kind of gloss over that here. Um. 25:13.70 archpodnet Um, yeah. 25:06.25 Paul Hopefully later iterations of the product of the product are going to be able to do what you were just saying recognize you swear and highlight it and then you know let the specialists try to analyze that oh this looks like it was used for you know for skinning hides or for butchering meat or for whatever. But. That's not part of this pro of this artifact three D right now. 26:08.58 archpodnet Right? right? So I guess one last question for you then Paul as we wrap up this podcast episode is you know you've done the the logosh project twice. You've been out there a couple times in the last year and you're undoubtedly going out there again because the project isn't finished and. 26:16.49 Paul Who. 26:48.36 archpodnet Now you're going to Saudi Arabia with a different organization and in both cases. What was the artifact collection. Um I mean I know at Laos you were collecting artifacts but they're still in Iraq and I don't think you brought any of those home right. 26:54.91 Paul Um, no, no, no no. 27:24.80 archpodnet Yeah, you guys didn't bring those back? Yeah and it's probably the same thing with the project you're going on in in Saudi Arabia do you know? if if either had even considered um 3 d scanning in the field. The field laboratories that might be set up when these artifacts are collected is that part of the methodology are we not quite there yet for something like that. 27:37.75 Paul Ah, we're not quite there yet. Um I will probably push for introducing that to the logosh because I'm basically their technologist and um and I think that that could be a valuable addition to the to the toolkit. Um. 28:09.96 archpodnet Yeah. 28:23.36 archpodnet Ah. 28:09.30 Paul Probably not going to I'll be going back in the fall I'm probably not going to be able to explore that this fall because we're doing different kinds of of survey I So I still have to finish my service survey and we're looking at acquiring some magnetomery equipment so we can do some more geomag survey. 28:55.82 archpodnet Um, cool. 28:43.91 Paul The project in Saudi um I don't know what their plans are with three D Scanny I don't think there are any but I do know that we're not collecting anything. It's ah it's a survey so just like the work that you do in the southwest just like the work I did with you last year in ah in Nevada. 29:23.48 archpodnet Um. 29:38.86 archpodnet Um. 29:23.37 Paul It's um, it's going to be walking over the the landscape and taking pictures and noting Gps points and doing drawings but but not not picking up and collecting and taking back to the lab any of the artifacts that we find. 30:10.34 archpodnet It would be cool to see if you know you could get 1 of these 3 d scanning apps to to work and in addition to the the stuff they require you to record maybe 3 d scan in the field. You know a few artifacts that are picked up and just see if there's any any usefulness to that any accuracy to it. You know what? I mean that'd be kind of neat. 30:26.51 Paul Yeah, and I've got a few um like I said I've got a few different 3 d scanning apps on my phone so I might do that informally on my own just to see if it works you know and if it does I'll present that back to the. Ah. 30:48.48 archpodnet So all right. 31:01.62 archpodnet Yeah. 30:56.69 Paul The people I'm working for and if they like it they like it if they don't they don't that's fine, but it gets me a little closer to being able to do that in Logosh which is my primary project right now. 31:36.00 archpodnet Well if anybody would be down for doing it I know the I know the firm that you're going out there with is probably 1 of the most tech forward firms in the United States and if anybody would be down for trying something out like this. It would be them for sure. So that's pretty cool. Yeah, ah, all right? well. 31:42.23 Paul Yeah I think so. 32:14.28 archpodnet This is the last episode for a few episodes with Paul because as he said in a few days. He's headed off to Saudi Arabia and we are bringing on though and hopefully we can get this going I've been in communication with him. Um Ed Gonzalez tenant and he has been on ah the architect podcast before and he's very. He's ah he's very technological in the things he's done. He's got ah an awesome um, you know way of presenting digital humanities and and the things that he's doing out to the public and his outreach and things like that. So we're going to bring him on for I hope a few episodes as you know to talk about what he's doing but also as potentially a co-host. 33:10.11 Paul Yeah, I'm excited to have him you know, filling in in my stead while I'm gone because his work is excellent. Not just the technical work like he said but also as you said his his very human approach to the tech. He tries to look at the work that he's doing from a very anthropological perspective. 33:31.90 archpodnet While Paul is gone. 33:40.26 archpodnet Um, yeah. 33:57.72 archpodnet Um. 33:50.70 Paul And working with the senate communities and all sorts of really really thoughtful. Good projects and a big big part of what he does is. He's a a professor so he's very into teaching the next generation of archaeologists. 34:21.36 archpodnet Um, yeah. 34:37.40 archpodnet Ah. 34:24.19 Paul And and computer specialists of various kinds. So yeah, his experiences is absolutely going to be an invaluable perspective to bring to this podcast while I'm away and hopefully I can record a little bit when I'm away. We just don't know yet what my schedule is going to be. 35:10.14 archpodnet Ah, yeah, indeed all right? Well thanks everybody for listening and thanks Paul and hope you have ah have a good time over in Saudi Arabia get a lot of good work done collect a lot of good data and hopefully you can record. Yeah and I guess we'll we'll welcome on ed next time and. 35:10.70 Paul Thanks! ah. 35:45.88 archpodnet We will see you guys in a couple of weeks. 35:27.59 Paul All right take care.