00:00.30 archpodnet Welcome back to the arche architect podcast episode 84 and I'm here with our our new temporary co-host Ed Gonzalez tenant welcome back all right? So one of the things it I wanted to ask you about. 00:10.60 Ed Thanks! Thanks! Good to be here. 00:18.47 archpodnet In relation to the last segment and you as an ah as an instructor especially of you know field school students grad students people like that one of the things that that really strikes me especially doing you know, almost None episodes of the architect podcast I've worked with wild note for the last few years I worked with codify I've i've. Worked with people doing app development. Obviously I'm very pro getting people to do these techie type things you know and whether it's using drones or digital site recording you know or whatever the case may be but in my experience trying to sell that to companies. 1 of the problems I encounter is people not people just having the inability to actually see these technological solutions for what they are, um, they they tend to see almost any high-tech solution whether it's. Ah, even from gis even though that's more common these days obviously to to drones to you know, tablet recording or smartphone recording whatever you want to call it. Whatever you're using stuff like that they have a hard time seeing those and um um I got a question related to when you're talking to these students about these technology you got them using lidar data you're teaching them qgis. Do you think they're becoming more tech-minded so to speak which means you know they they look at a solution and they think oh okay I can I can see the the technological ways that we can do this not that you always need to use some sort of high-tech solution right? but that it's part of their. Just way of thinking in their toolbox like when somebody learns a new language when you start thinking in that language it becomes a little bit easier. But if you got to translate every time. It's much more difficult and that's the problem I've noticed even with young people. Yes, they know these things exist but they still don't just inherently think that way you know what I mean. 02:02.15 Ed Yeah, absolutely I mean you know this is the I think this is a bigger conversation. Um, it's ah it's a cross-generational conversation. A lot of ways right? So you know there's there's a lot of talk about certain generations whether that's millennials or Gen Z. 02:12.59 archpodnet No. 02:20.22 Ed You know millennials are now the ones who live in places where they can afford homes are homeowners and stuff. Um, you know in Gen Z are like our college age students now and there's this idea that they're all digital natives and I you know I would certainly think that they're sort of social media natives. 02:26.84 archpodnet Right. 02:38.50 archpodnet Right. 02:39.71 Ed Ah, mean natives if you will but yeah, getting to think you know that's sort of my approach. Um you know and I think like you know Gis is a really good example. Um you know all of the students I work with people I mentor I'm a huge advocate for qgis open source. 02:57.50 archpodnet Me. 02:58.28 Ed I Think it's great I Love the the ethos of open source the political commitment. Um, hey this is messed up in the software can somebody fix. It-da-da it's fixed and a new a new port or or version is out. That's Great. You know you get you get a developer community. That's really invested in stuff. Um, however, ah, you're not going to probably want to go into a crm job or a government job in archeology or heritage more broadly and not also be conversant in Arcgis. 03:32.40 archpodnet Right. 03:33.29 Ed And so you know most of our Gis certificates and programs are only teaching arcgis and that's good and you know we we need that sort of ah experience and I think you know with with my students. Um, there's ah, there's a lot of. Um there's a lot of value in being able to tell an employer ah a potential client. You know if you need Xy or z done we can do it I mean certainly when I worked you know in crm. 03:59.96 archpodnet Um. Right. 04:09.92 Ed You know some of the extensions for Arcgis for instance, that would allow you to work with lidar data ah can be prohibitively expensive for companies large or small so being able to introduce open source solutions into that you know workflow So you're you're basically kind of. Really shifting between those different software ecosystems I think you know the goal there is to get people thinking in. Ah you know this? Ah maybe this will sound corporate speak solutions oriented but you know when when you understand what's possible with different. Software different technical tools. Um I Really think there's sort of this ethos of experimentation and anybody who's taught any of these things you know the None the the most important lesson we have to teach is don't be ah you know don't be afraid to Eff it up. 05:04.55 archpodnet Yeah. 05:06.22 Ed Um, in fact, you're not going to be technically savvy until you've effed it up a None times. So um, you know, certainly with with my approach to all of these things. Um, you know, being able to say look we can. 05:12.24 archpodnet Right. 05:24.85 Ed We can bring these tools we can bring these software to bear on these issues. Um, you know in terms of like working with clients and so forth I Think one of the benefits there is cost reduction right? Like if your overhead for software is far less than you can think about you know, either cutting back. 05:35.77 archpodnet Are. 05:44.51 Ed The overall cost or you can put some of that into into people and I think that that's you know? Um, yeah I think that's a really powerful solution because you know you've got clients who are now seeing products that maybe they didn't fully anticipate. 05:44.68 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:02.49 Ed That go kind of above and beyond for the same or even less money but you also have like employees or researchers or whatever who are kind of excited because they get to kind of push these envelopes. So. And we can talk about like how do you sell certain digital technologies to various clients I mean whether that's predictive modeling with federal agencies or public Outreach. You know for state-sponsored Crm projects I Think there's a lot a lot of potential out there. 06:23.16 archpodnet Are. 06:33.51 Ed Um, I Think what's maybe tragic is we don't necessarily have um the academic researchers. Um I mean we do have some but we don't have enough who are like okay how can I explore these tools to make the next generation of students Heritage practitioners. Conversant not just in what buttons to push in Software X but you know I would say this is a much deeper issue This is about methodology not technique. Um you know and once students are comfortable effing it up and understand what the methodology is then I think it's a lot. 07:00.91 archpodnet Ah. 07:12.59 Ed Easier for them to experiment. 07:13.40 archpodnet Right? right? I mean that's so good to think that way right? and and to get them not only exposed but you write to to learn to be you know solutions people one of the software companies I work with there's an actual role called Solutions engineer and I'm Like. We should all be solutions engineers Really you know when it comes down to trying to figure Out. You know how to actually get something done and and knowing all those tools and and that's where I working with wild notes specifically because that's where I really did sales the other stuff I was doing more development but where I was more in. 07:32.83 Ed My home. 07:51.50 archpodnet partially in development and partially in sales one of the things I heard so many times from archeologists of all ages was you know oh technology hates me or computers hate me or you know stuff like that. It was always that you know that anthropomorphizing the thing and saying it hates me not I don't understand it. It hates me. Yeah, and it's just like when you start thinking that way you start thinking everything you're going to do is going to be wrong and there is no proper solution and I'm just going to default back to you know, pen and paper in the case of something like wild note or you know what have you something that you know and man I just see that I see these. Potential inefficiencies that people are are experiencing just because they had a negative experience with something one time and then never went back. You know never never thought well let me see if it's evolved since I tried it last or let me see if I can understand it better and and keep going and to me that's like. None of the most important things people like you are teaching the next generation because yes you have to teach them about q js and lidar and gpr and drones and all that stuff and just make them aware of these things but it's also. Teaching their brains. How to think about this stuff and and how to solutionize to use another corporate term. Yeah yeah. 09:02.26 Ed Um, I Yeah I mean yeah, that really resonates right? I mean um, do you think about I think that that's you know I've I've um. I think Educators particularly those of us who consider ourselves Digital Archaeologists Digital heritage people. You know,? whatever um you know I I think we're It's a very exciting time and you're seeing that with some of the books edited volumes publications that are coming out I mean there's there's. 09:29.75 archpodnet When he. 09:36.71 Ed A lot of solutions out there. You know and I sort of think you know I was in Band in high school. Probably some of the listeners can can. Ah yeah I can ah can commiserate or identify with that I mean you know and it's our band director. 09:43.49 archpodnet Yeah, me too. 09:55.89 Ed Um, in high school was you know very much like it's a poor musician who blames their instrument and I don't you know? yeah you know computers are ah finicky things. Um, and you know I think ah. 10:00.70 archpodnet Um, Brett. 10:13.80 Ed Getting people into that kind of I mean this is where I wish we had more archaeologists who are like in the maker scene you know or vice versa of those you know like I that that mentality like I'm going to mess this up but you know what? that's okay I mean yes. 10:20.80 archpodnet Ah. 10:30.93 Ed On ah, on a job where you got a tight turnaround. It. That's not the time to mess it up. But um, you know for students especially like your ah your your college years whether it's undergrad or graduate school. That's the time to mess it up I mean none of all most of your professors they had no clue what you're doing if you're doing something technological I mean I you know where I went I did my graduate school at the University Of Florida I'm in some ways very grateful that I went there or I did some of it there I did some of it at michigan tech Michigan tech 10:44.26 archpodnet Yeah. 10:52.61 archpodnet Brett. Oh. 11:03.19 Ed Was very much like we're going to teach you how to do this stuff right? Ah university of Florida was nobody knew what I was doing technical wise right? I I was teaching my second year there teaching gis courses. Um, so I think you know there's um, there's a huge opening. 11:05.18 archpodnet Yeah. 11:22.85 Ed Right now for academics for educators to be doing this like hey kids not to you know, infantilize students but hey students. Whatever um mess it up like experiment go out there. You know how many programs. 11:35.80 archpodnet Um. 11:37.92 Ed I mean even now we can talk about open source hardware. There's so much open source hardware coming online from gnss receivers to ah probably gpr and other stuff you know it's it's it's we're probably right now in 2022 where within a year or two where. 11:42.54 archpodnet Yeah. 11:56.20 Ed Ah, like field tech-wise archeology could potentially mount. Ah, you know like an entire field kit made of open source tools both hardware and software or you know I mean if you know I mean I map with open source stuff. You know I think it's. 12:06.84 archpodnet Yeah. 12:14.52 Ed And that's not to say that That's the only solution because it's not because anybody who's worked solely with open sources hit that wall where it's like oh son of a bleep. This doesn't work. What do I do? um but that's where I think you know really empowering. 12:21.12 archpodnet Are. 12:31.42 Ed Ah, generations of people to be like okay well this doesn't work. Um time to experiment and um, you know that's the you know if it's like the the band director you know, only? Ah, it's a poor musician blame his instrument I Guess the other side of that would be right? The perfect is the enemy of good right? I mean. 12:34.95 archpodnet Yeah. 12:48.80 archpodnet Ah. 12:50.93 Ed Most of us are in situations where we need to produce something in a timely manner that does X Y or Z you know it's compliance work or whatever and being in a position where we're like hey I've satisfied this need. Um and maybe I've done it in a creative way. 12:56.38 archpodnet Yeah. 13:10.20 Ed But I think for a lot of people being able to do it in a creative way is actually probably going to increase their jub satisfaction in in a lot of ways that you know maybe. 13:17.26 archpodnet Ah. 13:23.80 Ed You know, academics we can do more to teach that. But you know on the flip side ah Crm practitioners and companies ah can also kind of embrace that maker mentality if you will. 13:32.65 archpodnet Indeed Yeah archeology isn't just about.. It's not just about cultures these days and and digging and and surveying and and doing all that stuff in order to properly answer those questions and really find out you know about the people that we're trying to serve you. You need the right tools at your disposal and and modern tools. Are you know, really helping out with that. So I think with that we'll take a break and come back on the other side and and wrap up this discussion back in a minute.