00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode none of the archeotech podcast and talking with creating a talking with sorry I'm talking with Ed Gonzales tenant about creating a virtual cemetery and you know one of the things you you alluded to in. The end of the last segment there is None of the reasons why you know we would do something like this. Not only for archaeologists to help visualize what's going on right? but also members of the public can can visit this kind of thing because you don't want them. You know tromping around these necessarily any archeological site for that matter. But. I'm wondering you know what we step back I think another aspect of this is also and maybe with the cemetery. Maybe not but definitely other archeological sites I can imagine where it is more ruins. It's more ephemeral in what you're actually finding our imaginations are full of. Inaccuracies and bias so we might be thinking well based on the available evidence. This is what I picture this thing looks like and you know the more experience you have the more accurate that picture may be but the ability to articulate those thoughts and data into something in a virtual reality environment that you can literally step into. In vr and then walk around and look you can you can actually test assumptions and say this actually doesn't make any sense like no no culture or group in the right mind would have set something up this way that doesn't mean they didn't do it but it might it might help you. Test out those kinds of assumptions. So I think from a pure research standpoint not just public engagement but a pure research standpoint. It might be helpful to start thinking virtual reality and it it would be great if we had easier tools to be able to you know create these environments but you know an easier way to create these environments so we can just. Add that to our toolkit for understanding and how that works and then if it all works out. You know, open it up to members of the public put it on some sort of virtual world so to speak and leather or people's visit lot other people visited so along those lines. You mentioned some of the tools you were using to sort of create this this cemetery in a virtual way. How did you decide to use what you're using. Are you starting with a virtual endpoint and you know what it takes to create that. Do you have something in mind a platform or a software or something like that and you know what that requires and you're kind of. Reverse engineering it from there in order to provide the data for that or how does that work. 02:24.13 Ed So I think where I'm at now is is there right? like moving forward new projects New sites I have this endpoint in mind and I know so I know sort of the steps that I would take to arrive there. But. Again, talking about the virtual rosewood Cemetery um work has been going on there since 20122013 and initially was very very traditional work. Let's map the site. Um, let's dream about doing. 02:51.18 archpodnet Susan. 02:57.54 archpodnet So yeah. 03:02.28 Ed Ground penetrating radar survey to locate unmarked burials. Let's see what the documentary record has and so for the most part you know the the research there began like a lot of archeological projects did over time. New Concerns emerged for me as well as you know a growing experience or or familiarity with different digital and virtual technologies that I started to imagine. Okay, so you know as archaeologists we were able to map things. You know and this is a historic cemetery in the Southern us you know it's a Sandy area. There are depressions. You know people who visited Historic Graveyards know what depressions that are historic graves but unmarked look like so an experienced researcher. Um. 03:41.30 archpodnet Friends. 03:57.27 Ed You know whether that means like professional or academic or you know even avocational a researcher knows what they're looking at but you know a lot of people would arrive at a site like this where maybe there's only 3 or 4 marked graves the documentary record records. 04:04.92 archpodnet Um, right. 04:16.13 archpodnet Ah. 04:16.31 Ed 40 something graves like death certificates where you know how as an archaeologist I can start to reconcile that through the results of a ground penetrating radar survey the field mapping of depressions the marked you know I can bring these different data sets together as an. Quote unquote expert. But how would I How would I start to communicate that to the public. Um, you know and not not in a way where I assume they know less but in a way that I just understand they've had less experience working in these sorts of settings. Um, and that's what really. 04:48.60 archpodnet So. 04:55.53 Ed Um, you know in the last few years sort of motivated me to start thinking? Well how would I combine you know these different forms of archaeological data that archaeologists right? We work with sort of natively after after a time you know we we understand how to combine field mapping data. And even you know lidar data of the site and the results of a ground and trading radar survey. How would I create something the public would not just find sort of intuitive but also actually have an interest in exploring and so I landed on. 05:17.47 archpodnet So yeah. 05:29.56 archpodnet Easy. 05:33.65 Ed Taking a very traditional set of archaeological data and kind of pushing it through a much more digital and virtual workflow with the idea of hey there are these tools you know sites like sketchfab where I can actually deliver. Really powerful large virtual datasets that ah users can then approach and you know access on their phones. Their computers, their goggles. Whatever and it'll deliver. 06:00.64 archpodnet E. 06:10.60 Ed Ah, sort of natively to those different formats. So whether you have a 2 you know, ah a 2 d screen whether that's your phone or your computer monitor delivering three d content or you have something fully immersive like a pair of vr goggles. You know the the great thing about sketchfab. Is it. 06:16.84 archpodnet Are. 06:23.19 archpodnet I. 06:27.64 Ed When you upload your virtual content your 3 d models. It will automatically deliver that three d data in any of those formats. Um, and you know for me I I have a ah relatively modest cost annually to. 06:37.16 archpodnet That's. 06:44.93 Ed To have the you know the the sketch fab um membership. But for the user it's absolutely free. There's no cost to the user and so I started working between you know what? I think is a very traditional archaeological project in ah in a historic cemetery and. 06:48.61 archpodnet Um, yeah front. 07:01.63 archpodnet In. 07:04.65 Ed Moving it into this you know I guess now I would say emergent or emerged I find it hard to say like oh yeah, you know 3 D Technologies are emerging technology I mean they're around we know about them. Um, but you know, kind of push that traditional. Data like how do I take traditional archeological Data. You know in a gis and elsewhere and bring it into um a three D model that I can then make interactive and so you know sketchfab offers the delivery solution. We All know how to produce that traditional. 07:36.15 archpodnet Right. 07:40.94 Ed Archaeological data. What was really the sort of exploration point was how do I combine this data um into a into a three D dataset that I could then push into sketch file. 07:55.70 archpodnet Okay, and sketch fab would show you really a lot of times what you see in sketch fab is sometimes especially of archaeological sites is what the site looks like now right? like you're you're taking these lidar data. 08:07.90 Ed A. 08:12.43 archpodnet Photogrametric data all this stuff and and and putting this together and giving a picture of what it looks now I'm wondering what your thoughts are on if this were brought into a full virtual reality goggles environment in some sort of universe that exists in virtual reality right. Ah, not something like sketch fab where you would basically look one off at different things but maybe actually applied to ah you know to some sort of a landscape. Do You think you would want to represent the cemetery as it is now given that a lot of historic cemeteries definitely have some degradation and some maintenance issues. And some some restoration issues issues or would you want to show it fully restored. Is there ethical concerns around I Guess altering its natural decay so to speak you know what? I mean. 08:54.63 Ed Yeah, absolutely I mean um, you know the the I guess the the tact I took was kind of a mix of those right? like um I'm not you know I'm not guessing at what headstones that might have been there look like. 09:03.15 archpodnet So. 09:12.24 archpodnet Sure. So. 09:13.82 Ed I Think we we certainly in this site had a lot of ephemeral like wooden headstones and so forth. Um, so I I think you know like I think this is a really important question and I don't think that archaeologistses it well. Most archaeologists who are interested in these things are not taking the time to think about this um you know and I think conversations with descendants or other stakeholder communities is important in that regard like what value would you get from this. 09:34.41 archpodnet And. 09:49.90 Ed Um, you know and if the the I guess if the goal is to create like with the virtual rosewood cemetery. There's no point in really recreating how it looks now there's only 1 visible headstone. Um, it's overrun. 09:59.12 archpodnet Yeah. 10:09.35 Ed By various vegetation. Um, the you know the the um the maintenance of the site probably could ah you know I don't know improve. 10:10.45 archpodnet Over. 10:19.20 archpodnet Um, sure. 10:23.90 Ed Ah, but you know this is in the middle of nowhere the person who owns it doesn't live on the property. They'd live some distance away from it. You know I mean there are legitimate reasons why it's in the state. It's in Um, so. 10:33.12 archpodnet So. 10:39.55 Ed This you know so for my I think each site would be different. You know a site that's ruined today showing the ruined state I think could have value right? obviously showing the present condition of a site is much easier right? You can do laser scanning or photogrammetry or whatever. 10:47.59 archpodnet Um. 10:59.11 Ed Done. There's There's not a lot of editing. There's very little conjecture if any involved and so approaching a site in that way is much easier if you want to represent a site as it existed. You have to develop a whole different toolkit a whole different set of skills. 11:06.41 archpodnet Threat one. 11:18.24 Ed Because at that point you're modeling 3 D objects They may be based on photographs architectural drawings or what have you but they're not easily recordable with Technologies today. So you have to start you have to take a step into a whole different set of skills. Um, and and a whole different sort of conjectural landscape. 11:39.00 archpodnet Um, okay, that's interesting. Yeah, all right? Well let's take our final break and then come back and and certainly not wrap up this discussion but we'll continue it because there's a lot to talk about but we'll do that on the other side of the break back in a minute. 11:50.92 Ed A.