00:00.18 archpodnet Welcome back to the final segment of episode None of the architect podcast and we're talking about creating a virtual Cemetery. So I think we've we've talked about you know some of the techniques you've used and and some of the things you've done so Far. What. Remains to be done and I think along the lines of that question is what could you do if money and time were no object like what would youve like you know that's always a fun question to ask because you never know you never know what's going to come down the line. But so so what's what's left that that you can actually do right now. In in order to to really I guess finish out this project from the standpoint of you know where you started and then we'll talk about where you would go. You know, give them the Golden check. 00:46.31 Ed Well I think at this point you know, um we we you know we have a finished or I have a finished 3 d virtual immersive interactive model of the rosewood cemetery. So a lot of ways. 01:01.49 archpodnet Is. 01:05.83 Ed I Think we've we've done what we can do with that site I mean now you know when I say that it's It's a very small site right? You're you're totaling a few dozen burials most of which are unmarked but revealed ah through ground penetrating radar. Ah the number. 01:07.35 archpodnet Okay. Yeah. You. 01:24.83 Ed Of of visible graves marked graves and gpr anomalies it roughly corresponds to the Florida certificates of death that we can find in the archives. You know we have a good correspondence between these documentary and archaeological data which is a historical archaeologist. 01:40.30 archpodnet Sure. 01:43.59 Ed Love that right? That correspondence is is beautiful in a lot of ways. Um, so in regards with with that project I feel like like like I've sort of hit what I need it to yeah you know I don't know what the future of access to that property looks like. 01:54.78 archpodnet Yeah, okay. 02:01.68 Ed Um, will it. You know be converted into some sort of of public lands will it be purchased by the state Will it be purchased by a nonprofit you know will the the landowner open it I don't know and I can't speak for any of the parties that might be involved in that. Ah, but I think. 02:15.31 archpodnet Yeah. 02:18.15 Ed You know what's what's interesting is even if that would happen and I think this is where it gets into sort of the like golden ticket question even if that were to happen right? The the immediate area that I'm reconstructing with that. Is a very small area right? It's a few tens of meters by None of meters. Um, and there are um, you know and so in that respect it's It's kind of I don't want to say it's easy right? There's There's all of these different skills that they brought into. 02:33.30 archpodnet The. 02:51.24 archpodnet Yeah. 02:51.52 Ed You know into conversation. But it's it's not a huge space. It's not a huge number of of 3 d models. In fact, the vegetation is really the the most costly part trying to represent what the area around the graves looks like in terms of trees and shrubs and so forth. 03:05.35 archpodnet Sure. 03:10.45 Ed So um, you know in terms of like ah a learning tool and a finished product I feel pretty good about where we're at with this. Um I think you know what I need to do quite frankly is like a academic is. 03:13.79 archpodnet Um. 03:26.99 Ed Ah, do some more writing up about this whole process I think that that honestly is kind of the missing piece because I think there are a lot of people working in cemeteries who face these challenges particularly small cemeteries, private cemeteries, family cemeteries. Um. 03:38.99 archpodnet So ah. 03:44.90 Ed You know in my my new position at the University Of Texas Rio Grande Valley there's ah there's a big push um in the surrounding areas and counties to kind of create a large ah database of who's buried where um, you got lots of families. 03:59.71 archpodnet So. 04:04.18 Ed Ah, lots of communities who are like I know I have a connection to this area. You know find a grave is great but it's not easy necessarily to find um you know relatives and even if it is I don't know what it looks like you know so I think there's a lot of. Sort of local stories that can be told by these things I think the interactivity. Um and this is where I I think maybe we can like shift into that none question like embedding additional information whether that's like. Oral histories or historic photographs experimenting with the ways that we would incorporate these other data into a virtual world into a virtual space um into an interactive and immersive space I think that's that's the last sort of step. Um. Ah, to move into. But of course you know anybody who works with archaeology and oral history and the intersection of those None things knows that these are time intensive and often even you know sort of resource intensive things to do and I think there are some models out there. You know when you know I've even written about this when maybe you move into a certain area or click on a certain. Ah I don't know model click on a certain headstone. 05:22.43 archpodnet Yeah, for like. 05:26.14 Ed Maybe that activates a snippet of somebody's oral history about that individual right? I mean there's so many of these these possibilities that could take place and we're talking virtual. But obviously you could shift that into an augmented or mixed reality application as well. So um. 05:29.16 archpodnet So yeah. 05:45.30 Ed You know the goal of creating a virtual rosewood cemetery has been met. However, there can be so much more than a virtual X site I think and you know I think what's really exciting right now and I don't want to jump into the like. 05:56.18 archpodnet Yeah. 06:04.40 Ed You have a bucket of money. What can you do, but you know I think what's really exciting now is bucket of money or not and I do want to talk about that but bucket of money or not um, there are so many open source tools and you know computational power of our cell phones and our laptops is is such today that. I think a lot of these things are if they're not currently within reach. They're so tantalizingly close. Um, and I think you know we've we've talked the last couple weeks about this like maker mindset I mean I think. What's really exciting for students and archaeologists and heritage professionals in in general is how do I kind of kit bash my own approach my own selection of software my own selection of hardware my own selection of delivery options. How do I bring that together to serve. You know my interest at this site or the community's interest at that site and so forth. 07:02.82 archpodnet Right? And it's interesting you you mentioned you know, being able to click on some of the some of the headstones and and you know maybe see some information about the the people's lives that are buried there and I was thinking from a virtual reality. You know, immersive standpoint almost. So a very similar thing I actually wrote this down as a note during the last segment I was like man it would be super cool to almost view the headstones and the graves as a door and you literally like step into whatever world this person lived in and it would be. Some of it would be from historical records just of what we know you know where the people lived because there there might not be a lot of information about each person that was buried there but you know what we do have we could include and what we don't know we could you know we could estimate based on what we just what we know of that time. Period. But you know another question that's kind of related to all this is if we you know, thinking way into the future because there's going to be long-term repercussions of these virtual representations right? and None of the things I'm thinking of that might not be too far as far into the future is we think that was we think it is like possibly within our lifetimes. You know you got like a ready player one scenario where people are living their lives in virtual reality. Ah, and and we have archeological sites represented as accurately as you possibly could within these virtual worlds what then happens to the real one and and. And in a really weird ethical question does it matter because if preservation and education is the key if it's preserved and people are learning about it in an online environment and that's where they're spending most of their time. What is the ethical consideration around the physical one that remains. You know should we bolddo it to put up more server farms for people to be in. You know, virtual reality or or like like what happens to it. You know what? I mean when nobody's paying attention. 08:58.84 Ed Don't worry. Don't worry. We're you know we're putting up another Amazon Cloud Farm ah but we've scanned stonehenge at a 1 to 1 ah scale so you'll be able to visit it any time the druids can virtually manifest themselves in in vr chat. I mean that obviously that's a fascinating question right? like um I don't have a definite answer I mean I understand any archeologist particularly those of us or those of you who have worked I mean I have and I know a lot of listeners have worked. 09:18.33 archpodnet Yeah. 09:33.18 Ed Or do work in cultural resource management contract Archaeology Federal Agencies State agencies whatever that means for you personally or locally. Um and there's you know that constant balancing act which can shift very quickly into triage from development. Um. I mean I think you know what's what's cool about digital and virtual technologies is it's sort of it's it's an extension of what archaeology particularly salvage archeology right? has always been get the best and largest amount of data in really as as quick. Ah. 10:01.79 archpodnet Ah. 10:11.74 Ed A way as possible to preserve that information. Well what if our tools our methodologies and I think that's really it I think this is less about I mean sure there will be a time I remember this in my master's defense at Michigan Tech you know I have a master's in industrial archeology. And it's a great school. Great program. Great folks there and I was sort of you know talking about in the defense which my thesis was very gis- oriented and remote sensing and I'm like oh you know at some point we'll have a little black box. We'll take it out to a site. We'll set it down and it'll basically record everything. 10:48.66 archpodnet Oh. 10:49.98 Ed You won't even have to excavate and certainly I think for a lot of us who enjoy the act of of excavation the act of fieldwork The camaraderie that comes along with that. Um, Also the the like the just natural collective think. You know hey we found this. Let's all think about what this means I think that's a really powerful way to explore ah the past and history and heritage I'd hate to see that go away but on the other hand Um, you know what happens when we can do a complete recording. 11:16.39 archpodnet Yeah. 11:26.86 archpodnet Yeah. 11:27.40 Ed Whatever that means I mean molecular level you know, component analysis because you know I don't know if that'll happen in our lifetime I think of like Star Trek Scanners you right? like from or the enterprise. Oh there's intelligent life here. Whatever that means ever We define that? um. 11:36.51 archpodnet Oh yeah. 11:45.75 Ed Which obviously they got schooled on that lesson more than once. But um, but you know so like yeah getting back to the question I think as archaeologists and Heritage professionals. Um, our goal is to produce the sort of record that could serve us. You know, ready player one sort of scenario like look this is lost but we know enough that we can reconstruct it and now we have the technologies that we can um you know make it available to people I've often thought I like I want to. 12:06.82 archpodnet No. 12:22.70 Ed There's a part of me that wants to be like a science fiction author right? and I've often thought of a scenario where an archaeologist an ethno archeologist uses the technologies that will be available probably within the decade um fully immersive. Um. 12:23.82 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 12:41.45 Ed Environments if not self-aware artificial intelligences things that are basically indistinguishable from our perspective and so what happens if we create. Ah you know a scenario an Island Perhaps we work in the caribbean. 12:58.98 archpodnet Yeah. 13:00.77 Ed Like I have done and we're interested in what what would it be like to do an ethnography with the indigenous population that lived here a thousand years ago and what if I can use archaeological and ethnographic data to basically generate a group of living individuals in a virtual system. 13:08.71 archpodnet Red. 13:18.38 archpodnet Soon. 13:19.90 Ed And I can go do ethnography as an archeologist among them like how are you living? How are you exploiting the environment and so forth and how is this going to inform my future interpretations but then of course what happens you know I feel like this is maybe the next step or None from your question like. What happens then when we're like okay well the simulation is done I learned what I needed to do. But there's None possibly sentient indigenous people living in the simulation. Do I just turn that off do I have so I mean maybe that's. 13:45.44 archpodnet Oh man right. 13:53.73 Ed Very far in the future. Maybe we never get to a point where we have to ask those questions but I think asking you know those sorts of questions. It's just kind of ah ah like an issue of scale like do I protect this one site I can virtually reconstruct it perfectly. Um. 14:04.95 archpodnet Even. 14:11.66 archpodnet Yeah. 14:13.63 Ed Who am I protecting it for um I mean obviously you know I've I've sort of beaten around the bush on this right? as an archaeologist. Yeah I want to protect all the sites I don't want them to ever go away. But um, we also recognize that that's just not feasible I mean humanity would have to stop right? We just have to pause. 14:30.93 archpodnet Friend. 14:33.58 Ed Um, for for that to be a ah reality and that's not going to happen for better and for worse so I have no answer I think the the best answer for those of us who consider ourselves Digital Heritage Digital archeologists is do your best to document as much as possible. 14:39.16 archpodnet Brett. 14:51.71 Ed And you know the great thing about that sort of data is we can then access it later and reconstruct these places. Um, which I think is also cool because people sort of present digital archeology or or virtual arche out right? as something Brand new. 14:58.78 archpodnet Even. 15:10.91 Ed But I think there's this core component to it What we're talking about now right? like let's reconstruct a site virtually so people can visit it I think that that is sort of the the public or engaged archeology extension of what archaeologists as a scientist archaeology as a science. 15:29.13 archpodnet Same yes. 15:29.49 Ed Has always tried to do preserve the information and now we just have a way to make that information accessible to a much much larger audience not just us and the people who pay for your publications. 15:38.80 archpodnet Right? Indeed indeed. Yeah and that's man it is so many so many questions because we are on the cusp of really a ah revolution in outreach. And interaction with things not just for the public. But for scientists as well and you know when you were talking about. You know, studying a ah virtual people. Yeah I was thinking along the same lines of taking all available data and putting it into you know I hate to say the the words invoking all the sci-fi. Craziness but putting it into like an ai so the Ai could infer back with what we know about other cultures and civilizations and what was found in this particular location and essentially build a people that we're creating this. So then we can go look and and see potentially how these things were done based on all the available evidence. And other stuff that we know but like you said man that that is such a slippery slope because you know what happens to those quote unquote people especially if they gain some sort of sentience or something like that. We we seem like we're talking way into the future in sci-fi but this kind of thing like just happens right? like all this at some point we're going to live in a world. Sentient artificial life forms whether there computer robotic or whatever. Either way, it's the software or that doesn't exist and then all of a sudden we're going to live in a world where it does exist. You know so it's not it just not a thing that's part of our lives until it is and once it is. It's going to be a game changer. It's going to literally change everything about what we do. And even even archeology something that some people would say is stuck in the past will be impacted by this crazy future. So anyway, yeah on those lines. Ah. 17:21.64 Ed I mean I think like a lot of these you know, um you know when I've come in in a university setting I arrive and I'm I'm working with whatever the Gis program is or department. 17:34.50 archpodnet Me here. 17:36.73 Ed And they're They're almost always surprised to see just how involved archaeology is with these technologies I think it's going to be the same thing with any of these others. Um, you know, even artificial reality I mean yeah in some ways we're just talking about simulation and simulation studies are. 17:47.60 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 17:53.10 archpodnet Is. 17:56.64 Ed I Mean exploding right now in archeology people are simulating all sorts of aspects of the past. So it's only a matter of time before you know, agent-based modeling is I Guess what I'm talking about it's only a matter of time before we can quote unquote program or or create or generate. 17:59.00 archpodnet Yeah. 18:16.58 Ed Very intelligent ah agents you know, agents whose intelligence is so deep that maybe for for those of us interacting with them. It starts to become indistinguishable from other people and of course you know. 18:28.91 archpodnet Um. 18:33.39 Ed The the Google engineer who swears they have a chat bot that is sentient now and lost ah their job because of this I mean yeah I I don't think this is a question we're going to have to ponder much longer I mean yeah maybe it's years. Maybe if it's in decades even but. 18:38.97 archpodnet Brett. 18:45.24 archpodnet Ah. 18:50.10 Ed You know as a species this is a this is a question that is going to be answered for us relatively quickly or you know I think we disappear but I'm obviously hopeful that we we don't disappear and hopefully we treat Ai or sentient non-corpooral. 18:54.49 archpodnet Yeah. Thank you. 19:09.99 Ed Intelligences with some semblance of respect. Um, obviously ah, the history of humanity shows. That's exactly what we do. Ah. 19:16.93 archpodnet I I would almost judge an Ai essentially and Ai for not immediately destroying us I would almost judge them for that. So you know it's like how intelligent are you really right? Oh man. 19:22.67 Ed Ah, wait, you're giving us a chance. Yeah, okay, you're clearly a product of human engineering. 19:36.79 archpodnet Exactly all right? Ed well thanks a lot for this episode in the in the last couple so this has been this has been really great I don't know if we're going to need you for another one. We'll find out I think like I said I think Paul might be on track to to be back for another recording. But who knows. We'll we'll keep you on tap just in case and and get some updates on what you're doing. 19:57.75 Ed Um, absolutely I'm I'm happy to be here and always happy to drop by. 20:02.53 archpodnet Sounds good all right? Well Thanks Ed And thanks everybody else and we'll see in a couple weeks.