00:00.00 archpodnet All right welcome to the show everybody today. It is just me turn down my microphone a little bit and start that over okay all right welcome to the show buddy today. It is just me Paul is out in the Middle East doing some fantastic things and. I'm sure he will come on and tell us all about it when he gets back in a few weeks so we can look forward to that probably later in November this is our first new episode in a little while we had the ah we had a little break over October and that helped us kind of retool some of the things we're doing at the archaeology podcast network. And for all the other shows and now we're back at it. So with that. We're going to start with an interview and I'd like to welcome Zach Overfield from HdrZach how's it going. 00:48.32 Zacj Pretty good Chris really excited to be here. 00:51.40 archpodnet Awesome! So I was actually approached by your company to talk about this project that we're going to talk about which I think is a first for definitely the arche architect podcast and probably all of the Arche Archeology Podcast Network and it's first off I just like to say it's fantastic that that's happened because it's always been. Ah, somewhat of ah a goal of mine with the archeology podcast network since I founded it to be an outlet for Crm companies to talk about these projects outside of like a paper that let's be honest, very few people are actually going to read and a crm report which even fewer people are going to read and. It's just you know these cool things. They just never get out there in the way that we would like it so you know our several thousand listeners a month would be happy to hear what you have to say. 01:37.79 Zacj Yeah, well I'm like I'm excited to hear that I'm I'm glad to hear that Htr is the first and I hope other companies do the same thing because you know I agree you know so much of what we do doesn't go Beyond you know a small group of professionals and sometimes it's dubious. Whether even our clients you know, read the reports. So. 01:54.55 archpodnet Right. 01:57.62 Zacj Ah, you know I think it's really important for archaeologists to be getting out and trying to disseminate our work to a larger audience and you know hopefully just make what we do more accessible in general and that's what I love so much about about your podcast is a lot of great information and it's and it's easy to get to. 02:11.60 archpodnet Yeah. 02:17.44 Zacj So which is pretty much the opposite for for most archeological technical work. 02:20.70 archpodnet Ah, ah, exactly exactly yeah for clients, it's always make sure that executive summary is real good because they'll probably read that you know, but ah, that's exactly exactly. 02:27.50 Zacj Yeah, exactly ah, the first few paragraphs look real sharp but. 02:37.30 archpodnet All right? Well let's just set the stage here. So you're working in Louisiana tell us a little bit about this project. How did it come about this is a Crm project. So what prompted this this action this section one of 6 action and then we'll get into what it is a little bit. 02:48.43 Zacj Yeah, yeah, so I just recently rejoined hdr like a little over a year ago. Um and day three of like onboarding I haven't even finished like my corporate training yet I got pulled into this this project. Um, you know i've. Done some cemetery investigations in my career and you know this was kind of had just been spooing up and it's ah it's for a freight rail project just upriver from New Orleans near a small town called Norco Louisiana and it's located within the bonnicre spillway. 03:17.66 archpodnet Um. 03:25.24 Zacj A very large core of engineers civil workss projects. You know for flood control from the Mississippi into Lake Ponchatrain and canadian national our client who in this area operates as illinois central railroad. Um. 03:39.70 archpodnet Ah, okay. 03:42.54 Zacj This bridge this wooden trestle bridge. Um, you know needed to be rebuilt because data to the 1930 s so one we had to you know, architectural our architectural historians had to assess whether or not the bridge itself was a historic property but you know during the early project planning phases there. 03:56.55 archpodnet Um. 04:01.41 Zacj It it wasn't assumed that a lot of archeology would have to be done because in in the 80 s the core had had you know this area surveyed extensively. Um, and so pretty much 100% of it was covered by some level of effort in the past. Um, and then they've been actively sand mining in this. 04:21.94 Zacj Billway and they're they're still doing it. They are even doing it when we are out there eventually doing the field work. Um, and so the early you know environmental project manager and and client thinking was that archeology wasn't going to be a concern and it was going to be pretty smooth. 04:25.94 archpodnet Okay. 04:38.31 Zacj Environmental permitting process that ended up not being the case. Um during the during the core. Ah pre-application meeting. Um the core Archeologist. You know, very casually just brought up that that. You know it's come to his attention that that there may be a union cemetery in this buildway and potentially you know within the project area. Um, this was like no big deal and this was before this this had happened like soon just a little bit before I started and so I basically got pulled into call number 2 with the core. 05:02.17 archpodnet Wow! No big deal. 05:15.95 Zacj They were already kind of expecting ah a scope of work. You know from us and our and a research design. Um, but you know there was still a need for like a lot of clarification on Htr's end on like okay, where's this information coming from because our you know due diligence and desktop research. 05:16.31 archpodnet Um. 05:35.15 Zacj Hadn't resulted in identifying anything like that and um, but basically what he said was that um you know, just local information been passed to him that um, the. 05:54.88 Zacj During that that early work when the spillway was being surveyed um that ah there was ah a gentleman who had passed along some oral history and this this man was in his late 80 s and he was passing along something his grandfather had told him as a child. Um. 05:55.18 archpodnet Um. 06:12.10 archpodnet Okay. 06:14.30 Zacj Was that there was a union cemetery near the the bridge the the cn bridge um and this was information he was relaying. You know this was he was recounting it in the 80 s for something that had transpired in his childhood you know decades before that. 06:29.15 archpodnet Yeah. 06:32.64 Zacj And then there was 1 historic photograph um of just a kind of anomalous anonymous looking ah looking cemetery. Um, but on the back it had scrawled and pencil bonnikare se now there are several cemeteries in what is today the bonnikare spillway. 06:47.40 archpodnet Um. 06:52.00 Zacj So whether or not this photograph is of this Union Cemetery is is suspect and still the present day I'm I'm pretty unsure that that's a photo of this cemetery. Um, because a lot of Archival research we ended up doing um. 07:01.88 archpodnet Sure. 07:09.46 Zacj Seems like the cemetery didn't have headstones in this photograph clearly is of of a cemetery with headstones so seems suspect. Um, so you know we started Ah, basically at that point you know we were told by the corps that we'd have to do an archaeological investigation and so. 07:13.80 archpodnet Okay, yeah. 07:27.72 Zacj Um, we know we kind of started that that usual process and we were pulling together a plan to do mechanical prospection was kind of plan number 1 Um, so you know that's that's basically kind of how things kicked off you know stand and. 07:36.56 archpodnet No. 07:47.32 Zacj Starting as a standard one zero six process and you know there's also a lot of other environmental permiting needed because we were operating in this billway. So and in this part of Louisiana you have to get permits from the office of coastal management. So. 07:50.47 archpodnet Chirp. 08:02.96 Zacj Even to to just to dig a hole in the spillway you need a permit from the from the core whether it's archaeology or or not is the core civil wars project. So as section section 4 a 8 you know the real estate action and all that all that stuff. So. 08:08.60 archpodnet And sure. 08:18.53 archpodnet Um, so I mean back up a little bit did the bridge end up being historic itself. 08:25.80 Zacj Um, great question. So just north also in the spillway closer to Lake Ponch and train is an even longer 1930 S Wooden trestle bridge that Hdr was and canadian net. It's also canadian national bridge and so. 08:35.63 archpodnet Ah, okay. 08:40.37 Zacj Um, hgr had just been working with Canadian national on on that bridge and that one was evaluated as eligible as so basically a tremendous engineering feat for the time. Um, just ah, revolutionized 1930 S Wooden trestle bridge engineering. Um. 08:50.20 archpodnet Sure. 08:59.81 Zacj Just crossing. Basically you know this massive this massive area. Um, and so basically because of that bridge because that bridge was eligible. This one is much smaller. Um, so our analysis at the the core ended up and the ship I ended up agreeing with that that basically this one. 09:00.51 archpodnet That's cool. 09:12.45 archpodnet Um. 09:18.68 Zacj You know, almost in light of the other one. Basically this one being much shorter and and pretty redundant with the other one. Not eligible is it was constructed later so this much longer 1 constructed first. That's the important one this one constructed later is determined not eligible. 09:26.66 archpodnet Okay. 09:34.93 archpodnet Yeah. 09:37.89 Zacj Clearly I'm not an architectural historian but I think that probably hits hits a nail on the head. Um, yeah. 09:41.76 archpodnet Ah, yeah, well I'm I'm actually a little curious about the other bridge too. Did they just kind of beef that one up a little bit and and restore it a little or you know I mean if it's if it's still in use and getting old. You got to do something with it. 09:53.30 Zacj No yeah, no, so actually so like you said so I mean these are quite all almost 100 year old bridges right? and they were in frequent use with very heavy freight trains crossing them. 10:02.41 archpodnet Sure yeah. 10:11.59 archpodnet Brett. 10:12.18 Zacj You know that one still had to be reconstructed so it did you know there was ah an moa developed and there there was you know mitigation for it So in interpretive signage. Ah primarily in addition to like your hair documentation. 10:23.86 archpodnet Um. 10:28.80 archpodnet Sure. 10:32.80 Zacj So on this billway there will be They haven't been installed yet but they've been created like this that bridge the new bridge for that project is like currently in construction and like wrapping up. You know this year So there'll be some interpretive signage installed and there was all the documentation done. 10:43.41 archpodnet Okay. 10:51.96 Zacj But yeah, that 1 is being deconstructed and and rebuilt. So. 10:54.40 archpodnet Okay, well,, that's pretty cool. All right? So we've got a little bit of the backstory now now onto the archeology of the whole thing in the write-up that you sent us it was mentioned that a suggestion was made in order to help find the cemetery to basically just dig up the whole thing. Right? I mean Archaeologists have shovels and they love to use them. So ah, you guys didn't end up doing that. But what was the what was the discussion around why you didn't end up doing that You know why?? why? a full scale Excavation didn't initially takes place or or really other. 11:16.42 Zacj Yep. 11:24.99 Zacj Yeah, so after. 11:28.64 archpodnet Other testing and trouble testing as well presumably would happen before that. But yeah. 11:31.34 Zacj Well yeah, so from a shovel testing standpoint. There's just no way you could reach you know any any sort of deposits that would tell you anything you know one gonna be too deep and 2 You're just in this so we're in the the spill. 11:40.75 archpodnet Oh they're just too deep. Yeah. 11:49.43 archpodnet Um, yeah, ah right. 11:50.69 Zacj Spillway which is like extensive wetland environment. You know in South Louisiana just upriver from New Orleans so um water table was a major concern um for a number of reasons. Um, but basically you know the first thing you know we got the requirement from the core and. 11:59.39 archpodnet For sure. 12:10.53 Zacj We put together like a pretty standard sample like mechanical scraping sample and we were going to look at just a portion of the the project area and it was still like a pretty pretty large scale effort. You know our. 12:15.63 archpodnet Um. 12:24.99 Zacj Costs for us. You know for this sample were in was in the 6 figures and obviously the client was having a lot of heartburn about about that. Um, but you know what? what must be done must be done. 12:28.21 archpodnet Sure. 12:39.86 Zacj And so you know my initial thinking was it was a pretty commisurate sample in regards to just like the potential impacts because these wooden trestle Bridges. You know the new bridge The footprint of the the pilings um is is super minimal I mean the total like project Area. Subsurface impact was like point zero one acres because you just just cumulatively adding up just the footprint of the pilings. Um, and they're they're driven pile right? So a giant machine goes along just driving these straight in the ground so that there's There's not large Scale excavation. 13:02.77 archpodnet Chis. 13:06.39 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 13:18.10 Zacj And the sampling strategy that we are proposing was going to be way more excavation than even the project you know? Um, so I was like so it seemed reasonable to me. Um, um, it submitted it to the core core pass it along to losing Anne division of archeology. Um. 13:18.89 archpodnet Um. 13:25.71 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:37.47 Zacj And um, you know the state archeologists felt that because of the Louisiana Unmarked Historic burials law that really the entire project needed to be excavated because under that state level law. 13:47.28 archpodnet Um, ah. 13:51.65 archpodnet Um. 13:53.90 Zacj You know, no new development. You know can be done on top of a cemetery. Um, so it really kind of changed well, their perspective is like you know they understood how kind of minimal the footprint was but just under Louisiana state law to protect cemeteries. You know. 13:57.85 archpodnet For sure. 14:12.63 Zacj Their initial feeling was that you need to we need to scrapve it all and then you know that was going to you know at a minimum like quadruple the cost of what we had already proposed. You know at a minimum and that's not even taking into account like we would need to have the contractor. 14:22.83 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 14:28.98 Zacj Doing the the trenching was going to have to have a significant presence and also lots of shoring available because we're like I was saying in the environment we were operating in with a shallow water table and we'd be talking about really unstable soils that flood. You know, pretty quickly and need to be pumped out to even examine the trench profiles for burial shafts. Um, so it seems like a logistics nightmare from from Jumpreet and you know freight Railroad clients are extremely safety conscious and so you know they were. 14:53.14 archpodnet Um. 15:02.55 archpodnet Yeah. 15:05.68 Zacj Just kind of really unsure that this could really even be be done so in a manner that they would find safe and you know so in addition to our costs which just for the sample were already 6 figures the kind like the contractor's cost which was gonna be a sub consultant directly to The. The client to our client was also considerable and so just like basically quadrupling that amount of work or more was pretty eye-popping for them. Um, so you know we were going back and forth with like the level of effort. 15:27.33 archpodnet No. 15:35.47 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:43.76 Zacj With the division of archeology and you know it seemed like we could you know maybe scale it back a little bit and not do 100% and really just like hone in on the new. The new piling locations um or or at least um, you know. 15:52.20 archpodnet Any. 16:02.98 Zacj Scale it back some but it was still going to be a pretty dramatic expansion of what we'd initially proposed and logistically challenging. Um, so during that time when we were just kind of looking for alternatives or or trying to adjust our our scope. Um, you know I've been made aware. 16:05.00 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 16:22.46 Zacj Of you know some work that had been done primarily in academic circles using the historic Human remains detection dogs and other remote sensing techniques to to look for for burials. 16:35.30 archpodnet Um. 16:40.58 Zacj And you know I just like a passing awareness of it. But ah, right around the time that we were going back and forth on the scope with with the core then division of archeology. Um, ah ah, Dr Ben Alexander with Texas state actually not far from where you're. Posted up right now at Austin um was giving a present a virtual presentation to the North Texas archaeological society which I virtually attended um, talking about these applications in archeology and work that he had done like for text. Um for you know. 17:12.64 archpodnet M. 17:18.65 Zacj Section 1 of 6 and antiquities code of Texas compliance. Um, and during his presentation. You know I you know interrupted like several times asking questions because he said we could ask questions during so I did. 17:33.11 Zacj And I was like do you think you they would work in a really wet environment. Potentially you know, upriver from New Orleans Louisiana and ah, you know the more we got into the details I was like this this seems like a viable approach to me so like texting like the project manager like while I was still like watching this presentation. Um, and ah, um, and it ended up talking to Dr Alexander or or Ben after ah, immediately after the presentation and it seemed like you know something he was you know, interested in in exploring because he was looking to get his his specially trained dogs into. 17:52.57 archpodnet Um, yeah. 18:11.23 Zacj Some different environments you know and really get some additional visibility like for this work. Um, and I was like all right? Well you know we'll start start exploring this and he has some other contexts like in this in this business in in the dog business. Um, and ah. 18:18.22 archpodnet Okay. 18:30.58 Zacj So I started getting the ball rolling with the agencies which in and of itself was a ah, pretty big feat to get approval from the agencies. So I don't know if you want. 18:39.36 archpodnet Right? Okay, well that sounds that sounds like a good point to take a break and we will come back and see how that went and the other subsurface sensing equipment that you used to actually. Find or not find as the case may be this. Ah this cemetery. So Let's do that on the other side of the break back in a minute all right.