00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the archeotech podcast episode 189 and I'm talking to Zach Overfield about the project he was on with Hdr where working try to find the existence or nonexistence of potentially a civil war era cemetery so at the end of the last segment. You mentioned hearing about these cadaver dogs as I've come to know and then we've actually done episodes with the I can't rurows on this show or another show on the apn but definitely talk to some of the people that have um that that operate a cadaver dog company out of California. And they've they've been on fires and archeological projects and all kinds of stuff I remember I mean crazy things. These dogs can find right? I remember 1 of the big fires in California I think the paradise fire. 00:44.27 Zack Overfield Yeah, yeah. 00:49.72 archpodnet I think they called that the campfire but paradise California burned down and somebody contacted them because they had sitting on the mantle of their house which literally burned to the ground I mean there was nothing left of this house. It just raged through their big house burned completely to the ground but the ashes of 1 of their. Deceased parents was sitting on the mantle of the fireplace and there was a good foot thick of Ash just where the house used to be and the cadaver dogs found the ashes of the um person I couldn't even believe it I didn't know they could find ashes I know they could find remains and that has definitely. 01:16.30 Zack Overfield Wow. 01:24.70 Zack Overfield It's incredible. 01:25.70 archpodnet And odor that dogs can pick up but ashes right? So yeah, sure. 01:26.92 Zack Overfield Well, you know with these dogs it goes even beyond ashes right? because with ashes at least there's something like physical there. But these dogs yeah and the why so why I say historical human remains detection dogs and like differentiate that from from like like broader. Category of cadaver dogs is because these dogs that we are working with and the dogs you know that are really built for this work are specifically trained to identify human remains that are 75 years or older and really what they're trained on is to identify the the odor of human decomposition. So they're looking for areas where. 02:01.33 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 02:03.49 Zack Overfield Where human remains were um so there doesn't necessarily have to be anything left of the body so you know with ashes like you know I think I could certainly believe that because they at least there's something there but these dogs you know can find you know. Or basically everything else is decomp decomposed away and there might be nothing physical left of of the human body and they can also differentiate between humans and other mammals which which still blows my mind and we don't actually 100 % understand how they do that. Even um. 02:27.28 archpodnet Um. 02:38.31 archpodnet Wow, That's yeah. 02:41.79 Zack Overfield Yeah, which is really interesting. Um, and yeah, so these dogugs you know so I started talking to you Ben Alexander and then ended up working with him and ah Paul Martin of Martin Archaeology Consulting who is working on his dissertation. Um, right now on this very topic and has his own trained dog. Um and you know other remote sensing equipment and so you know we relied pretty pretty heavily on on Paul and and Ben for their expert guidance. Um, and. 03:09.78 archpodnet Um. 03:18.49 Zack Overfield I said their dog you know Ben is trained at ah he's the he's basically the the dog trainer at Texas state for their um there. It's called fact, they's the forensic anthropology center. 03:34.92 archpodnet Okay. 03:37.11 Zack Overfield Um, and ah so he's trained lots of different like cadaver dogs and this dog in particular that we worked with her name was rip ah rip and has's been trained from a puppy to to find you know old human remains and you know barely their fragmentlance and. 03:45.43 archpodnet Okay. 03:53.86 archpodnet Um, thread. 03:56.90 Zack Overfield Um, and so and same thing with with Paul's dog so 1 thing that Ben really stresses is that just you know, not all not all dogs are necessarily cut out for this work and that each cadat. You know, cadaver dogs have different strengths and some dogs are much better at finding remains on the surface but some dogs are uniquely talented and in finding just like human scent or you know deeply buried remains and they've also had success identifying remains that are underwater. 04:16.80 archpodnet Sure. 04:27.79 archpodnet Ah. 04:29.59 archpodnet Um, cheese that's nuts. 04:31.74 Zack Overfield So they take these dogs out on boats on boats and through a combination. Yeah through a combination of dogs and you know Marine remote sensing techniques have been able to identify human remains. So their capability. 04:44.79 archpodnet Me. 04:49.45 Zack Overfield Um, is is truly incredible and I always kind of meet some initial like skepticism when I talked to people about this because since I got involved with this project. Well one for the project I just had to get very deep in this literature. You know, um and then ah but I've also at this point. Give it a couple presentations about it I'm set to give another one in November about this project in particular and the and I and either people are really fascinated and just blown away by how how good the dogs are or they have a lot of skepticism. 05:16.11 archpodnet Um. 05:25.50 archpodnet Well yeah. 05:26.56 Zack Overfield Um, but yeah, but the canine olfactory system is just incredibly powerful and they perceive the world entirely different than we do. Our nose is ah. 05:37.86 archpodnet So along those lines. Yeah no I Yeah I understand yeah um there I mean there's there's obviously dogs that can detect like cancer and other illnesses as well. Not just ah, you know, not just cadavers and stuff I mean it's insane with their. 05:47.44 Zack Overfield A yeah. 05:53.55 archpodnet What their noses and their olfactory system can do but so along these lines like you mentioned people are either amazed or highly skeptical. How did you convince the Louisiana division of archaeology and the army corps that. Using these dogs would actually satisfy the laws and regulations around what you're supposed to do because archeologists you know you give us a shovel or a trial and we just love to dig stuff up and it's really the only thing we believe 100% so you you convince them this would work. 06:20.12 Zack Overfield Yeah, and that's still you know and that and I so that was definitely the the case right? because that was the the initial ass was dig a extremely big hole right? Um, so you know at first I we we approached well once once I had the client convinced. 06:32.46 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:37.63 Zack Overfield Um, you know then I was like all right now we had to talk to the agencies. So I was like you know, just like 1 gate at a time basically and from the from the client's perspective. You know they were I said a little skeptical that. 06:43.77 archpodnet Sure. 06:53.19 Zack Overfield Agencies were going to approve this but they were willing into. Basically you know they are definitely supportive of of giving it a shot. Ah you know if it if it I mean honestly the thing they're most concerned about was just like the logistics and safety ah of digging up so much of the right of way. Um, and so. 07:08.99 archpodnet Sure. 07:11.87 Zack Overfield Um, so you know this was a potentially bladeless option. Um, and so talking to the core. Um, you know they were basically kind of their default was yet. You know they read up I sent them tons of literature. So I sent them like share you know point. 07:31.40 archpodnet Ah. 07:32.28 Zack Overfield Link where they could download all the references that I had been reviewing basically and then we had a technical call with ah Ben Alexander um and you know they got on board pretty quick but they're basically like well you know we'll defer to whatever. 07:35.45 archpodnet Yeah. 07:49.86 Zack Overfield Ah, division of archeology says and I don't know if you've ever worked in Louisiana Chris but ah as doctor Dr. ah chip mcgimsey has been a a mainstay in Louisiana for a while and is ah he's ah, a force in southeastern archeology. Um, and. 07:55.11 archpodnet It's one of the few states I haven't yeah. 08:08.81 Zack Overfield Would say most people working in this part of the country pretty deferential to him. So basically the the cores you know conclusion was like if if chip if chip says it's good. You know or you'll be good. Um, and that was the real the real task. Um, so we got a call together. You know, multiple calls really? but um. 08:11.28 archpodnet Sure. 08:28.10 Zack Overfield With chip and and they had actually so I talked him about the technique and he was familiar but they'd actually done this kind of work at poverty point in Northeastern Louisiana which is a you know pre agricultural mound site. 08:37.60 archpodnet Okay. 08:45.15 Zack Overfield Um, it's the only unesco world heritage site in Louisiana um, and one of the few in the south in general and they had just they had just used these type of dogs. Um, and so he was familiar with it and you know he had signed signed off on that for poverty point. Um. 08:45.90 archpodnet Um. 09:03.85 Zack Overfield So he wasn't really super skeptical of the the methodology but he was uncertain from just a legal standpoint of whether it was going to be acceptable for 1 of 6 compliance and Louisiana unmarked human burials Law. And it just so happens in the state of Louisiana one of the assistant attorney generals is archaeologists by training um and had ah a previous life as a cm archaeologist. Um and had extensive background and has an extensive background in osteology. 09:29.95 archpodnet Wow. 09:37.11 Zack Overfield And he's actually been the one pushing the protection for historic cemeteries in Louisiana and ah, that's kind of his purview at the state and so I guess chip and and he his name is Ryan um chip and Ryan had a pretty close working relationship. Um. 09:52.45 archpodnet Um. 09:55.65 Zack Overfield And so chip was like I need to meet with the Attorney general's office and get their take on this. Um and so weeks went by until I finally got an email was it was basically just like chip saying I think it literally said we're willing to give it a try is what? ah. And I was like perfect. That's all I need um and ah basically like you know they had they had looked at it and um, you know the assistant Attorney General's office decided that it it meant Legal Muster Um, and you know at that point it was it was off to the races developing a new. 10:15.46 archpodnet Right. 10:33.66 Zack Overfield Scope of work. You know for for this methodology and so we had some real technical workshop calls with all the archeologists involved so myself Ben the core archeologist ah Jason Emory and Chip Mcgimsey and 10:50.60 archpodnet Ah. 10:53.10 Zack Overfield We just got into the weeds with like all the questions that they had and what the best practices would be for this and basically and this is something that I had already read in the literature and kind of figured this is where we're going is that you know a multi-technology survey is the best approach. Um. 11:07.85 archpodnet For sure. 11:12.49 Zack Overfield And so you know they that was basically going to be the scope that was going to be approved. So um, we decided we were going to employ gradiometry ground penetrarting radar and these historic human remains detection dogs and you know Also best practice is using. Ah. 11:29.50 archpodnet Um, all right? yeah. 11:32.14 Zack Overfield Multiple dogs as well. So yeah, at that point it was kind of rewrite the rewrite the scope and and get it get that back in so between Paul and Ben they were able to pool. 2 other handlers. Ah you know, kind of sort of local when it comes to this kind of work. It's like you know east half of the country. It's like basically local so we pulled in a couple additional handlers with with dogs trained and. 11:55.89 archpodnet Ah. 12:00.17 archpodnet Yeah. 12:08.34 Zack Overfield Archaeological applications for this work and you know got got a date set and that's what we ended up rolling out with. 12:18.68 archpodnet Okay, well I think that's another good point to take a break because when we come back in segment 3 Let's talk about your results. Would you guys find what worked what didn't work. What did you learn? you know, would you do this again for similar circumstances that kinds of stuff. So. We'll talk about all of that if we can if we can get to all that in segment 3 on the other side back in a minute.