00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the arche architect podcast episode one eighty nine and and I am talking to Zach Overfield we're talking about using dogs to find human remains not just human remains but historic human reigns that may or may not even mostly be there in any physical sense except the dogs know they're there. And they can smell them and that's what we're going to talk about so we'll we'll get into the the other methods you used as well. But what was the deployment methodology of the dogs. What did this? What did this look like in practice. 00:31.14 Zack Overfield Yeah, absolutely so you know in January of this year is when we did it so you want to do this work when it is cold which and so we got approval on the methods in like probably october I would have to. 00:39.11 archpodnet Yes. 00:47.56 archpodnet Yeah. 00:48.60 Zack Overfield Go back and check that sometime in the fall of of 2021 but the dogs they can't work very effectively in the summer heat they're very limited kind of amount of like up and running time in the heat. So just from a best practices standpoint we wanted to schedule when it was cold. 01:00.45 archpodnet Um. 01:05.97 Zack Overfield And South Louisiana that's a pretty limited time of the year but January worked and it actually ended up being a particularly cold ah cold time and especially you know and especially for South Louisiana and you know between Texas and Louisiana as where I do most of my work and I wasn't even like. 01:07.47 archpodnet Or imagine. 01:25.30 Zack Overfield Fully prepared for the for the cold I had like every layer I had brought with me to the project area on. Um, but yeah, so we conducted the work in the winter we had 4 dogs um Paul Martin of Martin Archaeology consulting his dog was equipped with ah with a Gps receiver. 01:43.92 archpodnet Ah, okay. 01:44.10 Zack Overfield On her vest um to Mark you know where you know basically the ground that she covered like her amount of coverage and these dogs you know they came from different ah different handlers had different ah training experiences. Um, so they also had different alerts. 02:01.00 archpodnet We have. 02:03.41 Zack Overfield So and and different styles. So Paul Paul's dog worked very much in a grid like fashion like transet back and forth like what we would kind of expect for like human pedestrian survey almost whereas Ben's group um 02:11.89 archpodnet Sure. 02:21.71 Zack Overfield Kind of more just like free roaming. Um, and so yeah, we had the Gps data from paul's dog which was good to see kind of their coverage but but the other 3 dogs just kind of ah March to the beat of their own drum mostly. 02:39.93 archpodnet Okay. 02:40.99 Zack Overfield Um, and so that was interesting and then like 1 dog would would sit if they had a positive alert another would would bark and ah and another would point so we also had to be familiar with what their different alerts were um and you know a lot of it is still. You know up. 02:53.43 archpodnet Ah. 02:59.96 Zack Overfield You know, a lot of it is still really heavily reliant on the trait. The Handler's relationship with the dog and understanding like their cues and stuff so like sort of dog handler Relationship is absolutely critical like you couldn't just like have any. Ah. Any old person you know work These dogs. Um, so um, you know that was key and so one of the main highlights of this work is that they can cover a lot of ground fast. So We were able to run them. The project here is pretty small. Um. 03:18.80 archpodnet Bread. 03:35.99 Zack Overfield You know, like less less than an acre like so the actual footprint of of impacts was extremely small but our study area itself was also less than an acre so they covered the ground really fast. So we we ran them multiple times but they required like a rest between each time so it wasn't like they were working all day they were. We did. 03:38.91 archpodnet Yeah. 03:49.28 archpodnet Sure. 03:55.38 Zack Overfield Um, well one we had to like I said ended up being very cold. So when we first thing when we got out there in the morning we had to actually wait a little bit. Let the ground warm up because that's when the odor starts getting released from from the ground. So it's like the best and environment when the ground starts to get a little warm. 04:07.72 archpodnet Ah. 04:13.91 Zack Overfield And so we ran all the dogs in the morning and then in the afternoon and between that we we conducted our our other methods. Basically, there's also kind of 1 thing we weren't able to get into on this podcast is that there's other. Cemetery plantation cemetery nearby called the kenner cemetery which factors into this pretty heavily and so we actually and it's also unmarked so we took the dogs over there to establish like a baseline for their alerts. Um, and they were a. 04:32.45 archpodnet Um, ah. 04:39.73 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:46.31 Zack Overfield Incredibly enthusiastic about their alerts on that cemetery so we got to see them all sit point you know, ah bark. Whatever they whatever their designated alert was so we got some extremely enthusiastic Um, ah positive alert responses or trained alert responses. Um. 04:52.20 archpodnet Chase. Yeah. 05:04.73 archpodnet Um. 05:05.71 Zack Overfield And which is key to to kind of the results of this. Um, and so that's what the the dog survey itself looked like and then you know the gradiometer is pretty standard like grid you know 10 you know every ten meters we had you know the grid laid out. 05:24.92 archpodnet Ah. 05:25.80 Zack Overfield Um, across the length of the the freight rail and we we had intended to run the gradiometer between the trestles of the bridge. But I quickly realized that there's a massive amount of iron between each trestle and that was not going to work. Um. 05:36.32 archpodnet No, right right. 05:44.27 Zack Overfield And then underneath the bridge was was standing water like I said from the low water table and so we actually ended up pumping out all of the water from underneath the bridge and letting it dry out a little bit to run the gpr between each trestle. So. 05:54.88 archpodnet Um, and. 06:03.52 Zack Overfield We originally brought the gpr along to only Target Positive alert response areas if there were any but since we couldn't run the gradiometer between the trestles we ended up pushing that gpr between each trestle and so we could get some results. Um, so. 06:09.70 archpodnet It. Ah. 06:19.37 archpodnet Um, okay. 06:22.54 Zack Overfield Um, that's basically you know the the methodology that we ended up employing um and the yeah yeah. 06:27.15 archpodnet Okay, so yeah, so so what does this all mean how did it all come together with the results of the the dogs I'm really curious too if the dogs especially like the free roaming ones the things that they if they found anything. Did they all find the same things or were some of them kind of hit and miss. 06:48.86 Zack Overfield Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, so we did of the 4 dogs. We had one that was more junior. Um, and that and that dog certainly performed a little differently than the others and wasn't as effective. Um, but that's why you have. 06:52.40 archpodnet Okay. Um, yeah. 07:03.44 Zack Overfield 1 you have multiple dogs so they can check each other right and it's also an opportunity to like get some additional training like for the more junior dog so we really had like 3 more senior dogs than a fourth who is like looking to get some more you know, live action. Um, and so that standing water. 07:04.76 archpodnet Yeah. 07:11.50 archpodnet Oh. E. 07:23.83 Zack Overfield Ended up you know before we pumped it out. Um, ended up kind of already being an issue um because the dogs really ended up being focused on that standing water and that they they provided multiple positive alerts on the standing water. Um, and. 07:37.13 archpodnet Yeah, okay. 07:42.45 Zack Overfield Generally the majority of them alerted in the same location targeting the standing water whereas the rest of the study area which was like a buffered area away from the bridge that they didn't have they nearly didn't have any alerts except for an area to the south well outside of the footprint. The bridge. Um, so basically you know we got the we got the Grady armter results. So you know we didn't draw any conclusions until we got back to the office and processed all the remote sensing data right. 08:02.21 archpodnet Okay. 08:14.46 archpodnet Right. 08:17.59 Zack Overfield Ah, got the gradiometry results and on the north side of the bridge. It was so disturbed and so much metal you know from the construction of the bridge. It was basically you know there was There's no discernible anomalies is all noise um on the south side of the bridge. There were a few anomalies that. 08:27.93 archpodnet Right. 08:36.80 Zack Overfield And we are really looking for a pattern of anomalies that would you know indicate um a planned you know Union like federal cemetery. Um, though there were a few anomalies. You know they all were either too small or too large to to likely be a human burial and there was no pattern of anomalies. 08:42.30 archpodnet Okay. 08:53.80 archpodnet Again. 08:55.88 Zack Overfield Um, and then the gpr data between each each trestle didn't identify any anomalies that would indicate human burials um basically anything that appeared and that data was like present for like 1 slice and then a few you know millimeters later was gone. 09:15.31 archpodnet Um. 09:15.55 Zack Overfield You know, um, and so from the remote sensing data. It was like oh that doesn't seem like there's anything here but we had these dogs alerting on the standing water. Um, and then we had these positive alerts outside the footprint of the bridge like to the south that weren't related. To the standing water. It's like 2 positive alerts outside the footprint of the bridge but within our study area. Our greater study area. The dogs were alerted on so the 1 thing you know to keep in mind through this whole process is that that dogs. 09:41.45 archpodnet Okay. 09:49.25 Zack Overfield Really more of a presence absence tool when they're looking for remains this old because they're looking for the presence of the odor of human decomposition and the odor can travel through the ground and basically it like rises up like where it has Access. So The fact that the dogs were alerting on this standing water. Really indicates that um the odor is is being brought in by this water like due to the water table. Um, and since they weren't alerting really Adjacent. You know to the bridge or in spots where there wasn't standing water. It seemed like the alerts that we were getting from them. At the standing water. You know it wasn't quite straightforward that you know yes, they're alerting at the bridge then we have these other locations you know beyond the standing water where they were also alerting ah beyond the footprint of the Bridge. So what. 10:28.68 archpodnet So. 10:45.68 Zack Overfield We think is happening here is that a you know there could be contamination from the kenner cemetery which is the other plantation cemetery that is bringing the odor in the water table all the way to our project area. It's not far away. You know. several several hundred feet so. It's a little far away to think that that much of a indication is was coming up in the study area but certainly not out of the realm of of possibility. Um, with the way that the odor travels. Um. 11:05.84 archpodnet Sure. 11:13.80 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:21.69 Zack Overfield But I think is more likely The case is that the cemetery is nearby and that you know the historical account you know wall seemingly initially pretty flimsy is fairly accurate and that where the dogs are alerting Beyond just south of the study area. 11:31.64 archpodnet Um, no. 11:40.80 Zack Overfield Is probably more closely like indicative of like where the burials are and that we really can't take into account the the alerts at at the standing water. So basically what the dogs have told us is there. There is the scent of human decomposition in this area. But. 11:45.87 archpodnet Um, ah. 11:54.41 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:59.10 Zack Overfield With a combination of the gradiometry and the gpr and the positive alerts outside of our footprint. Um, you know our conclusion was that they're not within the footprint of this bridge and they're not going to be impacted by the driving of piles but that you know we also recommend it if there's. Any additional work to the south of this bridge that additional. You know, remote sensing or or survey you know would be warranted and so I think is happening. You know, kind of where I'm leaning is that this Union Cemetery is nearby but it's south of our study area. 12:25.88 archpodnet Sure. 12:37.98 Zack Overfield Um, and the Army Corps and the division of archeology who were on site during the fieldwork by the way they came out to see this happen including chip the state archeologist they agreed and so. 12:44.12 archpodnet Um, Wow. Ah. See how. 12:52.11 Zack Overfield And the other thing we factored in is like these positive alerts underneath the bridge at the standing water were were very weak especially in comparison to the baseline that we established at the at the Kenner Cemetery where we positively knew the location of a unmarked you know historic Cemetery of. 13:08.75 archpodnet Brett. 13:10.34 Zack Overfield But you know not much different in age as well. Um, and so at these standing water getting getting weak Hits. We have these hits to the south of the study area and then our other two you know tech you know lines of evidence that we are employed just really. Entirely Negative. You know for for what we were looking for. Um, you know we felt confident that we could at least say that the pilings you know weren't going to be driven through any burials and that was sort of the question that we were trying to answer so. 13:35.43 archpodnet Sure Wow All right? So so in the end, the project was able to I guess move on. Yeah. 13:49.98 Zack Overfield Yeah yep, So the core approved of the results division of archaeology approved of the results and so from an environmental standpoint and cultural resources. Yeah, the projects received all the clearances and and permits that it needed and it's it'll be marched marching on. 14:06.17 archpodnet Okay, all right? Well so does this I mean I know okay I've worked in archeology a long time and it just happens that the very first well I guess the second project I ever did I almost don't count the first one because it was North Dakota and shut down by a snowstorm like a week after I started but like. 14:08.92 Zack Overfield So now. 14:24.90 archpodnet My second project in archeology lasted about seven months and it was in downtown Miami across from the Miami circle for anybody that's ever heard from that heard about that it it was related to the Miami circle but different and it was full of human remains there were these limestone solution holes and human remains in there and my wife actually is an archaeologist as well and she worked. 14:30.93 Zack Overfield Um. 14:37.25 Zack Overfield What. 14:44.18 archpodnet In her early days on a cemetery project in New Jersey but to be honest since then we've rarely worked on any like cemetery related or burial related projects. They just I don't know. Maybe we just moving west they just they just didn't come up that often. So I guess where I'm going with this is. You know in your area and working with Hdr and in in your area of work. How often do you think you come across or are you having to deal with historic cemeteries or even prehistoric burials for that matter. But um. How often are you dealing with that and does this experience with the cadaver dogs you know change how you're going to approach new projects like that in the future. 15:26.72 Zack Overfield Yeah, it's a great question. So at my previous firm I was working almost exclusively in the city of San Antonio which has a municipal level ordinance for archeology and we were we were dealing with historic cemeteries and human burials frequently and so. 15:35.43 archpodnet Okay. Um, okay. 15:44.58 Zack Overfield That's where the bulk of my cemetery investigation experience comes from I have done ah, just 1 aximation. Um and kind of multiple survey level cemetery investigations like delineating cemeteries and cemetery features burial shafts. Um and managing those kind of projects. Um. 15:57.94 archpodnet Okay. 16:03.98 Zack Overfield I would say at hgr as as a company you know across the country like it has come up and we do have a couple of osteeologists and bio archeologists a part of our program and we're looking for more opportunities to not only. Um. Do that kind of work but also apply these techniques and continue working with Paul Martin and Ben where where possible. Um because we thought it was a very productive. 16:24.33 archpodnet M. 16:34.29 Zack Overfield Professional relationship and we've since this project pursued you know other work of this nature and I think has it certainly changed my approach for cemetery investigations I think it's not ah a one-s size fitsall approach. It's just another tool in the Archaeologist's tool belt Really um because. 16:48.25 archpodnet Sure. 16:53.20 Zack Overfield Like I said when you're dealing with remains this old. You know you talked about the beginning of the podcast like the dogs honing in on like the ashes and an urn you know and it's like when they're looking for the scent of human decomposition I think you can't really expect them to pinpoint exactly where and we're really looking for like. 16:58.23 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:12.80 Zack Overfield Presence or absence or like general area you know and that's where like the gpr comes in right? if the dogs are able to cover a lot of ground like much quicker and more cost effectively but can give you and a general area where human remains are that you can come in with those more precise tools and really target. You know doing the Gpr and like a portion of your project area rather than being like well we got to run remote you know slower more expensive remote sensic technologies across this whole project area. Um, because the dogs the dogs move fast. Um, and I think they can really. 17:38.45 archpodnet And. 17:47.76 Zack Overfield Um I think improve like cost competitiveness for these sort of for cemetery survey level work. But it's really if you're working in a cemetery that that's marked and you already know where it is and you're just looking to like delineate burial shafts like you wouldn't use the dogs. But. 17:51.33 archpodnet Um, yeah. 18:03.37 archpodnet Okay. 18:07.40 Zack Overfield What I what I see more and more like in you know and just in like our popular headlines. Um, is you know unfortunately with these ah American Indian boarding schools where they don't know we now know that there are likely you know mass cemeteries at these locations but we don't know necessarily where on the grounds they are. 18:15.64 archpodnet Right. 18:24.11 archpodnet For sure. 18:26.67 Zack Overfield You know, um I could see this being a really valid technique for those applications you know in conjunction with other remote sensing technologies because I think you always want it to be a multi-technology survey I would never recommend just using the dogs because if we had just used the dogs for this project. We would have. 18:40.20 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 18:46.63 Zack Overfield Probably ended up still having to dig up the whole bridge you know because they did have positive alerts underneath the bridge but we had multiple lines of evidence and we're able to kind of you know filter through you know all the information that we had. 18:47.37 archpodnet Right. 19:01.82 Zack Overfield To to arrive at like you know a sound conclusion that the regulatory agencies concurred with um, but yeah, so and but at the same time if you have a large project area. Are you going to want to run the gpr over the whole thing you know are you going to want to scrape up the whole thing. 19:15.80 archpodnet Red red. 19:21.64 Zack Overfield You know I think and ah a lot of you know for this project. We were just trying to answer the question whether or not the pilings were going to be driven through burials you know So I think it was kind of ah and we could answer that question solidly. But I do think a lot of these cases like if you you know they could lead to you know scrape you know scraping. But we also have a lot of you know projects where you know Native American Tribes may not want you to do any scraping. You know this is a totally Non-invasive. Non-destructive technique and if the goal is avoidance to just not impact human burials This can. 19:51.77 archpodnet Um. 19:57.29 archpodnet Right? for sure. 19:57.98 Zack Overfield You know, direct you you know provide direction on how to to avoid these features. So yeah I I think you know know in my research, it seems like this has had pretty minimal crm application and certainly this was a first in Louisiana um, but you know it seems like this has been. 20:10.66 archpodnet Okay. 20:16.51 Zack Overfield Being done in academia for like maybe the last decade or so and it says you know in the state of Texas and know text dot has has worked with Ben to to do this work and I think the company you were talking about California was at Icf maybe ah yeah I read a lot of their literature because it was ah. 20:28.70 archpodnet I Think so yeah, yeah, for sure right. 20:36.46 Zack Overfield Couple folks 1 or 2 folks from there like 1 of the most recent papers that came out last year on this topic had a Icf author. Um, and so I think you know we're starting to see I mean I think this is kind of going to be a snowball fed. We'll start to see more and more of this. And the fact that the state of Louisiana has approved this for cerm worked I've also learned that since this project the state and chip have already recommended to other consultants to employ this methodology. So so. 21:06.41 archpodnet So that just leads me to one last question I know we're running over on this segment running a little along on it. But I've got to ask you know on the archae tech podcast. We talk a lot about different technologies. We've we've hammered on about how we don't really want to call like what. Paul and I are really into like digital recording methods and things like that and we're tired of calling stuff like that digital archeology because all archeology is basically digital archeology and should be so we're kind of starting to drop that kind of thing but but even so like even just a few years ago we talk about say drones and it was somewhat ah somewhat of a novel concept for ah ah. 21:29.48 Zack Overfield And yeah. 21:42.66 archpodnet COrM company to own drones and and let alone have people you know have their ah have their Faa certifications to fly the drones commercially right? So um, they're part one zero seven license so 21:52.25 Zack Overfield E. 21:57.99 archpodnet My question is do you think that's early days on this but a company like Hdr who works across the nation has offices all over the place does projects in in a lot of different areas. Do you think Hdr might have ah ah a. Cadaver dog team at some point that maybe flies around the country because I couldn't see a local office necessarily having 1 unless you have a lot of work but you know maybe having a team. Yeah. 22:19.11 Zack Overfield And I I I absolutely hope so I absolutely hope so that's ah, certainly a strong interest of mine. Um, and you know I think you know hopefully it's Hdr. But if not I think we'll see that you know, definitely. Firms go that way. Um, you know, ah, and again, if you you know be probably part of the we have a pretty extensive remote sensing team just like outside of like cultural resources like hdr is like flying drones to record. You know bridges and making 3 d models you know, high precision 3 d models of bridges for bridge inspections. That's one that we'd even get into we. We also had a drone out on this project. We got a current aerial imagery via drone to incorporate into our project so we could look at the modern. 23:02.50 archpodnet Yeah, it's. 23:08.54 Zack Overfield Landscape and how it's been impacted by the sand mining activities and like what doesn't show up in like the Google earth imagery or historic aerials. You know, um, we've got ah a lot better visibility by flying a drone out there and we also played around with with different imaging you know technologies. Um. And we actually just during this process. We inadvertently, um, identified the exact location of a sugarcande mill in the spillway that the the vision of archeology had had mismapped. Um, you know, just old outdated you know location information. 23:39.60 archpodnet Ah, nice. 23:43.53 archpodnet Yeah. 23:47.88 Zack Overfield Right? And we were. We were able to identify. We identified it and we got you know g you know, highly accurate Gps points and aerial imagery on it and we we weren't even out there to do that. So yeah, that was actually pretty cool and I wish we. 23:57.68 archpodnet Nice, nice. Ah there you go. 24:06.47 Zack Overfield Could have looked more into that site but it was way outside of the project area. But. 24:09.98 archpodnet Ah, let's see That's what I'm talking about right? like drones are practically standard these days like you're you're kind of not doing your job if you don't do that at this point and maybe not quite there yet, but it's becoming a ah more you know just accepted part of the ah the methodology. So it'd be nice to see. 24:18.15 Zack Overfield Now? Yeah, ah. 24:26.36 Zack Overfield Yeah. 24:28.58 archpodnet Yeah, be nice to see these other techniques like using the dogs and things like that in in those areas definitely come up I've always thought too. You know my wife and I travel around the country quite a bit just before we lived in an rv and his archeologist and you know I'm just like. Man, there's been so many people that have lived on this soil but it's still such a big area but you go to some place like the southeast or the East Coast where you know prehistorically there was you know, still high numbers of people at certain points but also historically just like. You know, massive amounts of people and I'm like how do like cadaver dogs not just go insane because I feel like there's human remains everywhere in some of those areas and it's kind of amazing that there's not right? Our tendency to bury people in cemeteries is probably the only reason why. 25:07.47 Zack Overfield Yeah, absolutely Well, you actually kind of bring up a good point so you don't You won't you don't want to run the dogs in like a dense more modern cemetery because one like those sensors just be entirely overwhelmed. Um. 25:19.88 archpodnet Just overloaded. Yeah. 25:24.29 Zack Overfield Ah, 2 you don't want to. It's really not good to run them in cemeteries that have modern like embalming techniques because like formaldehyde and those chemicals can be damaging to the dog's olfactory system. So there's actually. 25:32.63 archpodnet Right? Ah yeah. 25:37.62 archpodnet Okay, yes. 25:42.10 Zack Overfield 1 of the handlers relay an account an unfortunate account to me that because they do a lot of like pow work. Um and they had ah a dog who located a crash and like the human remains from ah, a military crash and that there were you know toxic. 25:45.34 archpodnet Me. 25:56.86 archpodnet Oh jez. 25:58.56 Zack Overfield Chemicals and as a result of the crash in the plane. Um, and the the dog the dog you know did its job found the remains but ultimately developed cancer and died from from the exposure so they're really, um, you definitely have to be really. 26:06.55 archpodnet Oh my god. 26:16.92 Zack Overfield Cognizant of the dogs like health and safety. That's ah you know, talk about like time you know time of year you're running them time of day. So there's those factors to consider. You know we wouldn't run the dogs in August and in the state of Texas you know, um, and ah yeah, right. 26:29.29 archpodnet Someday We'll take those considerations into field text as well. But that's probably way in the future. 26:35.13 Zack Overfield Exactly I think we I Definitely you know I think we definitely considered the safety of these dogs you know way more than the than field technician safety gets gets considered by by clients and agencies right? And ah. 26:45.42 archpodnet Ah, afraid right. 26:49.86 Zack Overfield Yeah, because I don't think anyone's ever suggested in the state of Texas like oh yeah, we shouldn't do the survey because it's August and you know, but well you know with you know with climate change and the the earth heating up and this probably being the the coolest coolest summer of the rest of our lives and um. 26:54.12 archpodnet Yeah, let's carry a few extra liters water and let's get to it. Yeah. 27:04.91 archpodnet Um, um, right. 27:10.37 Zack Overfield And this being like the hottest ever on record in the state of Texas ah, um, and with you know, unfortunately I'm sure you probably saw in the news that archaeological technician died in Northern Louisiana recently um yeah um 27:17.80 archpodnet Oh yeah, yeah, we talked about her. Yeah. 27:24.96 Zack Overfield That you know I wouldn't you know in the north you know there's a you more of a field season you get certain point where it snows and freezes. Ah, you just can't you know effectively do field work right? I imagine a future in the south where we do get to that point where it's just like we can't work during certain parts of the year is just too hot. 27:30.43 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 27:39.37 archpodnet For sure your your field season is September to may rather than all year long. Yeah, so. 27:44.10 Zack Overfield Out exactly? Yeah yeah, we'll be instead of moving people from the north to the south to do work in the winter. We'll be doing. We'll be doing both or I'll be trading folks. 27:53.13 archpodnet I mean I knew archaeologists were destined for a seasonal round at some point where they're just like constantly north to South North to south fall in the season's following the digs. So all right zach. Well, that's about all the time we have. In fact, we're well over time. But this has been a really awesome. 28:02.38 Zack Overfield Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah yeah. 28:12.80 archpodnet Ah, yeah, awesome discussion and I hope people take something out of this because there are you know as you mentioned you work with people in Texas and well in Louisiana and I mentioned the company out of California I'm willing to bet there are you know I I wouldn't say a number of other companies but definitely other organizations that are doing this around the country and if you think you may have. Human remains on your project or or it's been rumored or suspected or something like that. This is definitely ah ah an effective cost effective solution and um, and anytime you can do nondestructive archeology that is kind of the dream and the goal excavation should be the last The last thing you do um, just. You know, just in case something needs to be preserved or something like that. But also it's it's expensive and takes a long time and and it's just you know resource intensive. So if we can avoid doing that but still get the same results then I'm all for it. So thank you very much for coming on and and talking about this. 29:08.33 Zack Overfield Oh thank you Chris I really appreciate you having appreciate you having me, it was a joy so hope to hope to be in touch again soon. 29:12.90 archpodnet Awesome! Awesome! sounds good and thanks again to Hdr for bringing this up to us and for your client for letting you speak about it too because that's also a rare circumstance for our clients like yeah, go ahead, talk about it most of them are. Here's the Nda don't ever speak of this again. But. 29:35.95 Zack Overfield Yeah now absolutely I'd like to take a moment you know to acknowledging canadian national and specifically Carrie Harris and and Ray Baker who were ah big supporters of this. But also you know Martin Archeology consulting and ah. 29:36.85 archpodnet Sure. 29:50.38 archpodnet Absolutely. 29:53.25 Zack Overfield K nine first detection. So ah, you know Paul Martin Ben Alexander and then Lisa Higgins and Karen Parquette are the other handlers I worked with and ah their dogs aby rip petty and polly so. 30:04.93 archpodnet There you go love it all right? Well thanks a lot zach and to our listeners Paul should be back here soon. I don't know if he'll be back on the next recording because he's gone for like six weeks but we'll figure something out, but either way thanks for listening if you've got any topics or anything else. You would like us to cover or interesting people. We should interview then. Send it my way Chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Thanks for that and we'll see you next week