00:01.59 archpodnet Hi welcome to the archeech podcast episode one ninety two today we're talking with Marco Volf a an archeologist a student archeologist from Germany who I know personally from the project I was just on in ur Marco within about a week of ah leaving ur to go to Lagos. My wife sent me along a blog post I'm not sure how it ended up on her newsfeed, but it was from one of the one of the editors of the advances in archaeological practice which is a journal that listeners of this podcast know Chris and I mine constantly for ideas and content. Ah. Anyhow, what he says is the the blog post is called looking forward to the end of digital archeology and basically his his premise is that well digital archeology the word digital doesn't add a whole lot to archaeology because everybody's doing something digitally nowadays and that's something that we've said on the podcast. But we can't really let go of it either because Chris and I are both geeks and we both like a lot of computer and scientific and technical aspects of archaeology. Ah, but we have said the digital archeology is maybe not the it doesn't have the cachet that it used to. However, there are some people that do a lot of digital so much so that the ah that the that the title probably still fits and you marco are somebody who is definitely a digital archeologist or at least an archeologist who foregrounds the different kinds of digital. 01:35.40 archpodnet Work that you do So I I was wondering and this is maybe an unfair question to lead off with but I'll go for it. Anyhow is do you consider yourself a digital archeologist and if so why or why? not. 01:49.32 Marco Wolf This ah difficult question Ah, to be honest, as ah I would have said no in advance for me the all the the digital methods are used in the field for me were always part of field archeology. 01:49.38 archpodnet Um, yeah. 02:07.14 Marco Wolf And when starting excavating in Germany there was already lots of stuff where we had lots of digital tell methods and when I was on my first abroad excavation in Kdisttan we had a very very ah digital workflow already with. 02:07.74 archpodnet Um. 02:25.63 Marco Wolf Ah, different kinds of Gps total station free d modeling and the kind for me that was from from the get go. Okay, that's how you do field archeology so it was never something different from the the norm so I would have said I'm just a normal feed archaeologist. 02:44.29 archpodnet No, that's that's totally fair and that's that's kind of the point I think of this post is that everybody uses digital tools now and so you know when I was your age as an archeologist I was the fact that we were using total stations. Was pretty. You know cutting edge and now it just expected that most projects are going to use them even though you know I still love them a few years ago we had discussions on the podcast about about photogrammetry and now photogrammetry is just being done casually by pretty much everybody in the field. Ah and yet. Yeah, so I definitely agree that that you know how do you separate the digital from the archeology with modern field workflows. But again I am going to go back to the point that that what I saw from you in the field at ur was somebody who definitely foregrounds those those digital tools. Over or maybe not necessarily over but definitely brings them up at least to a level of other less digital more analog kinds of tools and the digging and the drawing and the the kinds of things that we've done for you know for one ah hundred plus years as archaeologists. So um, before I go down this rabbit hole too. Deep. Can you tell us? ah on or the kinds of digital tools that you were that you were using to help us with the excavation. 04:09.25 Marco Wolf Um, yeah in in War Of course we started with the the total station since it's the I think the backbone of every modern archaeology. You have the the set up of your measurements your gis system and um. 04:12.94 archpodnet M. 04:26.86 Marco Wolf Everything you find must be located at some point so that for me, always the backbone and there it starts other than that the methods I use. There's lots of photogrammetry in the field since I'm big fan of the option to look back at. 04:28.11 archpodnet M. 04:44.80 Marco Wolf Ah stuff you may have not seen while excavating. But now when you have the model you have still the option to get some information. Ah not all information but looking back on it. You may see some stuff in color grading getting contrasts and stuff like that. So. 05:04.40 Marco Wolf And for that use photogrammetry with normal mirrorless camera or or with a drone to get the whole trench in 1 yeah model other than that, um, we also use the photogrammetry back at the off. In the house when 3 d modeling ah small finds. We thought were interesting enough to have them as 3 d objects which then can later be processed and with many in many ways for drawings getting sections of it. Comparing them or in size with other objects or just trying to yeah, get a better understanding on the technique. How it was made. 05:48.15 archpodnet Right? And so the photogrammetry definitely that that was one of the things that impressed me that you were using photogrammetry quite a bit and again a lot of people are using photogrammetry on different projects. But you're using it in both of the major ways that people are using it. You're using it for for documentation of the trench of the excavation. And for documentation of the objects that were coming out um with different setups you might describing a little bit the different setups that you personally were using. 06:19.81 Marco Wolf And in the field there is no real setup. It's um, just taking pictures making and we've now ah some years of experience having an idea how to take pictures and what to be careful of when taking pictures. How is the shadow casted always making sure that all the stuff is gone from from the the play so that not how you say. When you're taking a model of your trench and then you see oh god I forgot that there's a brush lying on top of the wall and now that brush is in the 3 d model that looks not professional stuff like that and that's for the field and but what I think you want to talk about is my my setup in the house for these small finds. Where I had like a photo box cube with led lights inside where put the turntable. Um, just ah yeah, at a cheap 1 You can find everywhere they use it normally for advertisement when they put it up in their their windows and put ah their ah. 07:25.54 Marco Wolf The stuff they want to sell on top of it. So It turns a little bit and looks very nice and I use that turntable to put on the objects and then while they turn in a very slow pace I Just press my camera and just take lots of pictures from different angles which then get. Ah yeah. Mesh together for a dense Cloud and three D model the process afterwards. Um. 07:50.90 archpodnet Right? And you said you said that the um that the ones in the field you're using for documentation and that oftentimes you see things post facto in the Models. You've made you know soil colors. Various kinds of things that are highlighted that might not always show up immediately in the field while you're you know, covered in dirt and sweat and and digging but that you can catch them later when you have a little a little more time. Do you notice the same sort of thing happen with the with the artifacts that you. Do Photograph Metric models of. 08:25.24 Marco Wolf And for me I realized when you already while taking the pictures of of ah objects or of structures in the field and I'm getting and trying to get all the details on getting more focused. 08:40.26 archpodnet M. 08:40.75 Marco Wolf On the details so already while taking the pictures I realize stuff and see stuff and like ah that's interesting or and that's something I just now realized and then later especially when taking the big models for the trench and you have yeah the top few. And can see the whole trench from from above, you can see lots lots of stuff. You cannot see in the field since you're already already standing or right on top of it and on the small finds. Also you get especially the very very very small ones where yeah you can just see with the blank eyebud when it's in 3 d. You can zoom in into. Um yeah, millimeters. Ah nanometter so you can get all the details. You can never see if the if you're only the eye for example, cylinder seals which can be like two centimeters tall and then you have this model on your computer and you can zoom in so it. 09:34.21 archpodnet Um. 09:38.53 Marco Wolf Fills the whole screen. So of course you see all that are the different stuff and the detail they put into creating those small objects. 09:49.90 archpodnet That's very interesting to me that um Chris and I go back and forth because Chris would always like you know some kind of a scanner that you could just boop and have an object or soil or site or whatever just photographed essentially documented in in extreme detail. And I always like the human element especially of drawing because that forces you to stop and look and evaluate what's what's important what's salient about something whether it's ah ah you know a section drawing or an object drawing pottery profile. Whatever. And what you're saying here and I hadn't considered it though I should have is that the very careful photogrametric work is kind of bridging that gap. It's not relying on the automat automation of the machine but you are stopping and thinking. How am I going to you know What's important about this. How am I going to make it show up in the photogram tree. You're you're actually balancing those 2 kinds of approaches. The automation of the machines with the ah the more manual approach of traditional drawing. Um I'm going to actually. Think about that one for a while because that's ah, that's a benefit that I hadn't considered before so ah, and that's actually that's why I wanted you on because the fact that you are you know, such? ah digitally focused in terms of your the methods that you approach archaeology. 11:16.83 archpodnet Without separating them out as their own special thing um means that you've come at these tools in a slightly different perspective than I have I mean it's it's it's an age thing. Um, you know I remember when we got our first flatbed scanner. 11:34.38 archpodnet Yeah, that was pretty cool. Um, but yeah, it's it's it's born digital or not born digital. But but I guess you know for cohorts of archaeologists. So anyhow that that ability to slow down to do the work as opposed to. 11:39.71 Marco Wolf Agents are not from who. 11:49.50 archpodnet Speed up to do the digital work which is what people tend to focus on is ah is an interesting perspective I hadn't thought about that before ah, are there given that are there a particular set of tools that you like best are there there certain ones that you gravitate to. 12:03.90 Marco Wolf And you mean it's in specifically with photogrammetry or and yeah. 12:06.90 archpodnet No, no, not no in general just archeology Jane it could even be analog tools. It could be the tro for all I care I'm just kind of curious that that you you managed to squeeze something out of the the photogrametric work that I hadn't considered so I'm wondering if there's you know. Ah, general approach that you have a general set of tools that that you know just tickle your fancy to use. 12:31.10 Marco Wolf A fancy to use the certificate equation and I'm for for me that what I found for myself is ah the camera to be. Be completely honest and with which I take not only the the photogrammetry but also the and excavation ah photography and I realized for myself and comparing myself with colleagues or even on project with other colleagues on on the same trend. 12:45.66 archpodnet Um. 13:01.98 Marco Wolf Ah, how much more pictures I take than anyone else because I I always have to fear that later when I tried to present what I did in the feed I have not a perfect image on I'm was like and sitting there and ah, why did I not take any picture of that and not from this perspective. Why is that wall only photographed from the north and not from the South. So I'm a huge a huge huge fan of Cameras I'm always trying to get on the yeah being up to Date. What is now the best setup to use where you have to be careful which data data type for images is. Long most long lived and stuff like that and I was checking took yeah set up my own setup and always better getting neal lenses and checking is and there's maybe ah possibilityibility to update my case to our. 13:41.66 archpodnet M. 14:00.70 Marco Wolf A higher resolution stuff like that. So if you ask me like that I would say the camera is my favorite digital too. 14:05.33 archpodnet No well I think that a lot of archaeologists would agree with you and again the born digital thing. You know I started my photography journey with film and so it's hard for me to get over the idea of oh well I can only take the 1 perfect photo. 14:22.74 Marco Wolf You know I can take. 14:23.86 archpodnet Ah, you know no I can take the the hundred photos and 3 of them are going to be perfect if I if I use digital you know a digital camera as opposed to the film camera. Um, but anyhow ah, let's take a break right here because what you just mentioned about taking all those photos. 14:42.47 archpodnet I've got a few follow-up questions for you.