00:00.00 archpodnet Oh yep, now it's going. Okay, welcome to the show. Everybody Paul how's it going. 00:00.00 Paul Go seconds start now. It's going. 00:07.46 Paul Pretty good. Um, you know I'm back from laas as you know and trying to you know, wrap up everything that that I didn't take care of because I spent half the last year you know, running around all over the Middle East and ah. 00:21.67 archpodnet Um, yeah. 00:23.50 Paul You know, getting stuff done around the house I've been on kind of a creative kick lately. So I just like half an hour ago posted a 3 d model for ah gcps for photogrammetry so we'll see if if those are useful. 00:33.34 archpodnet Oh nice. Yeah, that'll be really cool. 00:38.77 Paul And I've been you know doing some programming and other things. How have you been Chris. 00:41.53 archpodnet Not too bad, not too bad for word as you're as you're listening to this. We should be moving our way across the country from Charlotte North Carolina where we spent December and the last part of November actually. We're having an ongoing issue with our Rv I won't bore you guys with it. But it's ah ah, a diesel leak in one of our systems and they've torn this thing apart like 4 or 5 times because we've been back to the factory in Alabama because it was on the way here and that's where you can get some really good. You know factory maintenance from the pros and the people that put it together. So. 00:58.52 Paul Hanna. 01:13.91 archpodnet It was It's just crazy. It's it's a high pressure fuel thing and they just they just can't find where this this fuel is leaking out of and then when it does leak we smell diesel up in the ah up in the living room area and it's just I mean it's just a It's a crazy situation. Um, luckily we don't need it right now. We've got 3 other sources of heat inside here even though in Charlotte Weirdly it's going to be ° tomorrow I don't think it's ever been that cold here I feel like we're in some sort of you know b movie like disaster scenario where where the national weather service guys like I told you this was going to happen. You know so. Um, anyway, yeah, so but we got lots of different sources of heat and that that one's only really useful if we're if we're off-grid then we actually need it. Um, so and we're going to be offg grid for well the last half of last half of January and the entire month of February and then much of march. 02:09.27 Paul Yeah, so you're going to need that heater January February yeah 02:10.70 archpodnet So we kind of get this thing figured out. Yeah, exactly exactly I mean we'll be in some warmer areas like in in February we're gonna be in Mexico at like Northern Mexico so it'll be in like the sixty s so we probably won't need it there but we're still off grid and we can't use our fireplace. We can't use our heated floors. Um. 02:18.53 Paul Okay. 02:30.35 archpodnet We can use the electric side of our furnace which runs on 12 fold but still, you know that that pulls our batteries down pretty significantly. So anyway, ah, speaking of you know? Well I guess I guess batteries kind of is a good segue because batteries are well modern batteries at least the ones we have are filled with lithium. Lithium's a metal technically and I was looking for some articles. There's ah, there's a little bit of a backstory here Rachel who has been on this and she's my wife and she her her and I do ts the archaeology show and kind of the bread and butter. The archeology show is we look for 3 news articles. That are current in the news right now you know popular news articles that you may find just browsing the internet looking at your Apple News feed or looking at your Google News Feeded whatever the case may be and it might just come across. You might not even be searching for it. Those kinds of things and we want to see what are people seeing when they see these articles and how are they. Either being told good information or being misled by the reporter that interpreted this either journal article or I find a lot of times that they're even citing other news outlets right? They're not even doing their own research. They're like according to the guardian what do you mean? according to the guardian the guardian didn't write this research. So. 03:39.31 Paul Yeah, ah yeah I've noticed that a lot that really drives me crazy. 03:45.85 archpodnet It's not insane and they get away with it because nobody cares nobody reads that part right? So um, but anyway I was I was looking for articles that her and I were gonna do a fillin episode over here. We ended up not needing it but we still had the research so Paul and I decided to record this and it just so happened I found 1 article talking about. Ah, doing studies on on metal sourcing and and figuring out some things with metals and then I found another one and then I had to find a third one to kind of make it a theme. So the the theme of this episode is going to be current news articles about archeology relating to something to do with metals whether it be sourcing or. You know something else and we'll we'll talk about that. 04:24.20 Paul Yeah, no I was looking at this when you sent me these 3 articles I'm like well wait a sec these are all archaeomet allergy or metallurgy that just mispronunciate that ah rats. Ah yeah I'm looking at this. 04:31.50 archpodnet Um, yeah, but allergy Yes, you put the nphasis on the wrong cellleal. 04:41.95 Paul And I was going to say obviously I don't know a whole lot about metallurgy. But I just made that abundantly clear and I was wondering if you have any yeah, any background in it. Um at all from from your schooling. 04:55.12 archpodnet I have actually no background at all I don't remember it even being discussed to be honest with you in my master's degree or my my undergrad is just something that I don't know if it wasn't being applied as much you know twenty plus years ago or if it wasn't um. 04:57.48 Paul M. 05:11.24 archpodnet Or or maybe there just weren't a lot of discoveries or maybe it wasn't being written about enough I don't really know I mean I know that Science has had the ability to do a lot of the things that we're going to talk about for a while but I don't know if they were being applied to archeology so or at least maybe we just weren't aware of it I don't know because because you you don't know a lot about it either. As you said yeah. 05:19.18 Paul M. 05:24.68 Paul Well I well I was a peripherally I know nothing about it really? but I was very well aware of its his existence because back in the day as a grad student I worked at at Masca the museum applied science center for archaeology at the University Of Pennsylvania Museum and 05:32.67 archpodnet Um. 05:42.21 archpodnet Ah. 05:42.22 Paul Down the hall from us were a few people who made Archaeometlurgy their ah their thing a couple different metallurgy labs. So the terminologies that came up all the time mass spectrometry in particular were around me daily. But I just. 05:47.37 archpodnet Nice. 05:59.65 Paul Didn't have any particular interest so I didn't bother learning about it. Um, though I did find it interesting One of these articles is actually one of the the co-authors was on my M a committee because he was one of those researchers down the hall from me. 06:12.50 archpodnet Oh okay, nice. That's an interesting interesting coincidence and ah, well that actually brings something up I wanted to mention in case in case, this person is listening. We got some feedback from. 06:16.99 Paul Yeah though I still know nothing about it. 06:29.55 archpodnet 1 of the episodes we recently did about food. There was a research article where some you know was from shannada cave in I ran Iraq Iraq I think it's how shannadar is I can't remember Iran yes, 1 of those 2 and. 06:40.49 Paul Iran. 06:44.48 archpodnet There was some research done there and basically burnt food remains and they were able to sort of walk back What these food remains are and it was like prepared food and that was really cool and then the research the the Journalist who actually reported on that including the researchers they did this too but but it wasn't talked about in the Article. So The Journalist that. Wrote the original article based on the research also wrote another article where she actually sourced equivalent materials as much as she could and you know ground them in a stone like mortar and pestle situation and then cook them on a like rock slab over a fire. She made her backyard so they were like these. 07:13.45 Paul Who. 07:20.86 archpodnet Were like these grain patty sort of things. Well we got an email from one of the original study authors and this person you know said hey I just want to say you know thanks for covering this but it would have been great to you know, cite the original article or talk to me about it. You know because we're never cited names never mentioned stuff like that and I just wanted to first I already emailed her back but I wanted to say first apologize for that because I don't want to mislead anybody but to be honest with the t with ts that's not really what we what we do. We do that on shows like Archaeotech like in some of these cases we do have the original article and we will post those here. But ts is more for you know? Um I guess I guess just just talking about the news articles really and really the focus is the journalist and and what they did so you know along those lines. We'll get a little more in depth here in archeech but um, but otherwise we will. Ah. Ah, but it is lost ma thought we'll we'll do a little better in archae tech and we'll post as many sources as we can because that's the kind of audience we have for archaeot tech. Okay, all right, just pause real quick I don't have her name. Actually it's in my email probably. 08:33.47 Paul Sorry yeah as you were saying I thought you go mention her name and I'm like U Oh ah. 08:38.30 archpodnet Yeah, no I don't I don't want to mention her name just in case I mean it wasn't even for this show. Her name is sarahin c r e n I think it's a she um cat ah Kabuu I'm only saying she because I don't know the tone of the writing just sounded. 08:41.20 Paul E. 08:52.61 archpodnet Female. Um, yeah, that's why I did it So okay, coming back in we got. 08:53.50 Paul Yeah I'm I'm totally comfortable saying they them there ah hold on a second. 09:05.70 Paul You there? Ah yeah, sorry my wife just called and it just screwed up my audio. 09:07.24 archpodnet Um, I'm here Oh took your headphones. Yeah. 09:15.71 archpodnet Alright, let me know when you got it back. 09:20.16 Paul Um, yeah I think I do yeah I do it just sounded quieter for some reason that she just sent me a text. Oh sorry I forgot your recording say? Yeah, ah. 09:21.81 archpodnet Okay, okay, no worries happens I know it literally happens to me all the time I try to remember to. 09:34.84 Paul Well good things she did that right in the middle of the diversion there. 09:38.84 archpodnet I know I try to do it and I try to put everything and do not disturb so I can't get calls but sometimes it just doesn't work I forget um, all right? Let's get back into it so along those lines. Let's talk about the first article that we have here and the article title is mass spectrometry identifies ancient battlefield. And this is actually from I don't know it's from some news thing I never even heard of I use Apple News and and I do have a filter for archeology where I can you know I can see that stuff and this is from c two w international no idea what that is um, literally no and it said but yeah, but the url is um. 10:09.18 Paul Yeah I've never heard of them before. 10:15.16 archpodnet sciencelink.net so I don't know what's going on the logo at the top is c two w international. The Url is science like dot net. As of course we'll have links to all this in the show notes. Um the author is I'm going to get the name wrong argen dig dish graph I don't know you'll see it in the thing. Um. 10:17.58 Paul Um. 10:33.20 archpodnet Okay, so this one is actually kind of cool though. So some of the nuts and bolts of this here. Um, they found some Roman artifacts near the village of um, Klcreis in Northern Germany they used trace elements trace element analysis in these metal objects reveal that they belong to soldiers in the Nineteenth legion. That's exactly what we're talking about here that's kind of the the bread and butter. But how did they do that. How did they know it's the Nineteenth legion. 10:53.81 Paul E. Well this article, let's just caveat this since you just mentioned video citing articles and such This is a news release based off of a press release right? So It's already gone through a couple cycles. It's not an actual article per se but they do hit the highlights of. 11:07.80 archpodnet Right. 11:17.90 Paul What they did and basically the the fundamental idea is that the Roman Roman legions would reuse the same metal all right? So they would make their weapons and other tools and such and when things had to you know, got too damaged. They would melt them down and reuse that same soca metal. So what happens is that. 11:26.22 archpodnet Ah. 11:36.70 Paul The individual legions have kind of a fingerprint a chemical fingerprint of each of their metals which is interesting. Um I have a lot of questions around that that are not even remotely tackled in this article and again I don't know a whole lot about Roman Archaeology so 11:40.56 archpodnet Rep. 11:56.32 Paul And my questions are very naive but you know I I am kind of curious how how durable that that fingerprint is right? Does it stay that way for years decades does it slowly bleed in or out from local populations does. 11:57.23 archpodnet Um, yeah. 12:13.90 Paul You know at the disappearance of one legion. Ah, which is what this article is about um, does another legion take over some of their metals. Do they do they scavenge the ah the Battlefields is that even possible or if you've lost you and not able to get there again. Ah. 12:25.96 archpodnet Ah. 12:29.65 archpodnet Right. 12:31.93 Paul So So I'm really curious about the the durability of these um metallurgical fingerprints These chemical fingerprints. But that's the basic premise of the articles that they've got these metallurgical fingerprints and they use it to try to identify the presence or weigh in actually on an argument that looks like it's been ongoing. Um, about the location of a particular battlefield. 12:53.86 archpodnet Yeah I find it much like obsidian sourcing right? that we do a lot in the west and you know people are trying to find Obsidian sources they do chemical essentially a fingerprint chemical analysis of that obsidian source then when you find an obsidian artifact. And you can do some you can take a little piece of it and do that same analysis. You can you can say with I mean pretty high certainty exactly where that came from because every volcano or volcanic activity that produces that obsidian is is different. It just has different elements in the ground that that produce that so. Along those same lines. Yeah, the the metals that they're using because 1 thing you didn't mention was the implication is not not only do they reuse their the metals that they have but they have to source their own metal which is something that was just kind of glossed over in this like they stand up a legion. What do they have to source their own food source their own metal does like the state provide anything. Ah, or is it just are they given stuff in rome when they're first stood up and then as they're conquering the world. You know they don't go back to Rome for maybe years and and they have to obviously keep up their stuff so they have to source food. They have to source clothing. They have to source. Um, they have to source metal so I would wonder. About that fingerprint to be honest with you because you would think that they're they're having to actually do a little bit of mining throughout if they're gone from the you know from home for too long I would think but I don't again I don't really know much about that either. 14:18.29 Paul Yeah, well it makes sense to me that they would have to source their own stuff because everything can't be supplied. You know from Rome all the time. Um. 14:27.65 Paul So the knowledge the wherewithal some money to do things I would expect would come from from Rome but then the rest the actual doing of it has to be done much more locally certainly with things like food and clothing. But I'd never thought about it with metals but in a way it makes sense to me. It does get back into that same question I had about how. 14:31.92 archpodnet Ah. 14:34.97 archpodnet Yeah. 14:46.50 Paul That how distinctive those metal fingerprints are um but that the actual meat of this article then is that ah they they're looking at the varus battle where the Romans suffered a ah real crushing defeat in Nine a D ah. 14:49.48 archpodnet Um. 15:01.38 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 15:05.90 Paul The decimated. That's the word that they've gotten the article I don't know if decimmate is the right term here because that's something very specific for romans um, but ah destroyed let's say the seventeenth eighteenth and nineteenth legions so there's a question. There's 1 site that's. 15:12.86 archpodnet Right. 15:24.17 Paul Thought to be the location but there's another site this calulcre that that is also thought to be so they have the metal fingerprints from this calchreas site that match the Nineteenth legion camp from a different location and so they're saying that this. 15:32.10 archpodnet Ah. 15:42.91 archpodnet Rights. 15:44.60 Paul Caltry's site ah is definitely from that battle and that the debate is whether it's from that battle or if it's from a retaliator strike some years later that the Romans did and the crux of their argument is that it can't be from that retaliatory strike because. 15:56.22 archpodnet Um. 16:01.50 Paul The medals there belonged to the nineteenth legion and the nineteenth legion at that point did not exist anymore because it got defeated some years previous. Um, again way too much in the weeds at that point for anything that I would be able to weigh in on but I did think it was an interesting application of of looking at metal fingerprints and. 16:06.52 archpodnet Right. 16:20.46 Paul You know when we go to break here the next 2 articles are about something that we've thought about more and what you were discussing with the um with the obsidian which is you're trying to find out where the metals are from this is kind of a where the metals are from but it's more like to whom they belong which is to me a ah novel. 16:30.44 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. Right. 16:39.64 Paul Different way of looking at this same question using a similar set of tools. 16:42.83 archpodnet Exactly and that that's what I liked about it too. It was yeah yeah I don't I didn't even know if they can really tell where it's from necessarily like where the original metals were cored they were they were testing just to give you a little more details here. they were using mass spectrometty they were using mass spectrometry and they sampled. Analyzed about 550 different. Well they say samples I don't know if they mean artifacts or or samples of like multiple samples of 1 artifact who knows but ah from 7 known Roman Legion sites um and in order to I guess put together this database right? So they they. They did that and it was on the brass and the bronze by the way. Um the brass and bronze that they had those artifacts and yeah, that was that's what led them to determine what we've already mentioned and I guess just a little bit of historical facts. It marked the end of the roman presence in Germany this battle did they're like you guys are done get out and ah. 17:37.65 Paul And story. 17:41.29 archpodnet Yeah, pretty much so um, yeah after that battle and after this area the metal fingerprints so far discovered leading back to the Nineteenth Nineteenth legion ceased to exist because presumably once they. Created this database of of you know legion metal metallurgical fingerprints. They've tested everything right as much as they could get their hands on probably and after that you know have no more no more ah presence of the nineteenth legion which is pretty definitive I would say assuming they've got all these facts right? So all right. 18:03.47 Paul And. 18:16.10 Paul Well no, let's go to break and then come back and talk about things that are a little more traditional and I'll still have nothing important to say about? Um, ah. 18:16.17 archpodnet Well, that's about it for that 1 Paul you getting more thoughts on this one.