00:00.89 Paul Welcome back to the archeech podcast episode one ninety three today Chris and I are discussing 3 different articles about archaeo metallurgy to get it right this time. Yeah I hope so ah the second of these articles is published in science advances. Um. 00:11.39 archpodnet I Think so ah. 00:16.91 Paul And the authors of it are Wayne Powell Michael Friketti Jamal Pullockck h arthur bangkoff goio bayaovicch Michael Johnson Ryan Mather Vince Pigggett that's the one who was down the hall for me. Michael price. Oh oh and I didn't even notice this the first time through aslahan yehner I actually worked on one of her projects in 98 or ninety nine in turkey the title of the project of the paper rather is tin from the uluburu shipwreck shows small scale commodity exchange. 00:37.92 archpodnet Nice. 00:46.58 Paul Fueled continental tin supply across late bronze age Eurasia which is a big mouthful but it also hits a lot of um, a lot of interesting points that that extend beyond just metals here and have a lot to do with craft production. Trade networks and so state control and so on um and you know it's a very interesting article. It also gets into the weeds into the certain things chemical properties or chemical compositions of metals. 01:05.36 archpodnet 3 oh. 01:20.22 Paul That I have no real way of assessing and statistical analyses that I have no real way of assessing. But again it is interesting just the overall arc that the article takes and some of the conclusions that they draw because they sound to me entirely plausible. 01:37.77 archpodnet Um, yeah. 01:38.28 Paul That might be because I've got a couple of people who I respect that are authors on this article. Um, but I also think that it's because they're right. Do you know anything about the shipwreck. It's a very famous site. 01:50.96 archpodnet Honestly I don't this the first I'd heard of it So I'm I'm glad you've heard of it. 01:55.14 Paul Oh yeah, it's um, it's it's um, middle of the second Millennium bce so fourteenth century shipwreck found off the Southern Coast of turkey in I think 1982 by a sponge diver and basically it's. The entire cargo of a ship that went down there and it's filled with all sorts of various commodities including some luxury raw materials and this time period is noted for. 02:21.16 archpodnet Chase. 02:26.95 Paul The interrelation between the various kingdoms between the hittites the assyrians babylonians and egyptians primarily I'm not sure if the mitanni were part of it. Um, at the mycenaans probably were anyhow ah they're like at the Amarna letters in Egypt which are in kneiform. 02:41.50 archpodnet Ah. 02:46.58 Paul They're letters going back and forth between the royal families in is that a Syria or Babylon I should know that off the top of my head because this is something that's not too far removed from stuff I do and I've forgotten at the moment doesn't matter and anyhow and the egyptian royal families and they're referring to each other as siblings now they're not. Technically siblings but it would be like calling somebody. You know an old friend. My brother. Um, and so this ship is showing the transshipment. The shipwreck has in its cargo goods that are from all around the Eastern Mediterranean 03:08.30 archpodnet Right. 03:22.11 Paul And it kind of reflects that same sort of relationship that's happening between these great houses that control these these huge territories across North Africa and the modern modern Middle East you know where they were not just people and relationships but also various commodities. Ah. And in many ways controlled by the big states and it's that control of the big states of these commodities that is a little bit undermined by this article but in an interesting way. It doesn't mean that it's wrong, but what it shows looking at the sources of the tin in particular. That was found here now. There's a huge I think like ten metric tons of of ingots that are found not all tin. There's tin copper ingots. But um, it shows. Yeah that the wealth in this. 04:06.45 archpodnet Yeah. 04:15.40 archpodnet They I think the article said that? Yeah yeah, they said that the the amount of tin ingots on there would have produced about Eleven Metric Tons of high quality bronze which is just great and bronze is made out of tin and copper um tin being the. 04:26.28 Paul There we go? yeah. 04:32.66 archpodnet The less abundant element of the two. So very valuable. 04:36.66 Paul Absolutely and um and it's because of that lesser abundance of it. You know their copper sources spread out through the zagros and and the taurrus and cyprus and other locations across the region but there are fewer tin sources. And the tin sources that they have basically are in Anatolia and also ones out in central asia and they find the fingerprints of these tin sources in the ingots you know in this one single shipwreck. So it's from the same snapshot in time. It's from the same. 05:07.13 archpodnet Ah. 05:13.80 Paul Cargo on this boat. Obviously they would have picked these up. Well not obviously but they presumably would have picked or possibly would have picked them up in in various locations as it's doing its route. Um or maybe through whatever various means you know wherever they stop to pick up. 05:16.92 archpodnet Ah, nice. 05:32.89 Paul You know the metal the raw materials for the metals. Some of it came from central asia and some of it came from um from Anatolia but but they're looking basically at the chemical compositions to find like I said before to find the the sources of these and they find these 2 sources. 05:40.12 archpodnet Yeah. 05:50.44 archpodnet I'm wondering I mean again, you know a lot more about this. Ah, the shipwreck than I do because I'd only heard of it just with this. But do you know? if ah if they know why the ship went down by any chance because I'm I'm wondering if it was just too heavy like had some rough seas or something and broke apart. Sounds like it was really heavy I know they could carry a lot. You know they were they were capable of of putting a lot of weight in these ships. But even so man seems like a lot. 06:11.51 Paul Um, yeah I don't know off the top of my head if if they have a strong idea of why it went down. They do know that it did go down and it went down kind of on the slope underwater and spread out I mean if you look at the? ah. At the maps from the project from the recovery's it's Fascinating. You can see where things were in the hold right? You know the thing because you've got to distribute them obviously on a boat. You've got to distribute them so that you have balance. Um, but then there's also the tendency to to collect like with like. 06:32.34 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 06:39.21 archpodnet Right? but. 06:45.96 Paul You know? so I don't think you would have all your metal inkgots on one side of the boat and you know capsize instantly. Um, but they do have these and these great maps that you can see how things were laid out but it all is very deep underwater and it's on a steep slope. So um, so. Actually recovering that was a major feat. A major archeological feat in in in and of itself and you know now that they're doing these analyses of the materials because we've got the capability of doing these chemical analyses now this article. Gives us a lot. Not just about the sourcing. But then like I said what makes it interesting to me is it starts talking about thecietal structure then um and in a nutshell a lot of the trade that was happening in the eastern mediterranean and Mesopotamia is controlled. 07:31.40 archpodnet Ah. 07:41.79 Paul By these great houses by the great kingdoms. But as you get out toward central asia you don't have that same kind of centralized government. So it's being done on a different scale. It's being organized and yet it can still transnship these materials thousands of miles to get them to where the people. 07:57.37 archpodnet But yeah. 07:59.84 Paul Wanted you know to where the wealth is to purchase this tint and so that in and of itself is interesting and then the other one is that the other source that they find is actually fairly close. It's in Southern Anatolia but these are places where the major mines had already been depleted and so what they're finding. 08:18.37 archpodnet Ah. 08:19.68 Paul Is that these are kind of secondary sources River Washes They're basically scraping the bottom bottom of the barrel for the tin that they're getting from those areas. 08:22.96 archpodnet Ah. 08:29.52 archpodnet So thirty five hundred years ago some relatively advanced modern civilizations for the time already realized they were having a natural resource problem and we still haven't figured out how to overcome it. Ah, that's ridiculous. Ah. 08:45.20 Paul Ah, there are ones that would argue that natural resource problems are basically an under underlying. Ah, ah you know that you know an underlying problem of all human existence right? and whether it's something simple. 08:51.62 archpodnet Ah, yeah problem. 08:56.70 archpodnet Exactly. 09:00.00 Paul Not necessarily simple to solve but simple to understand like water or if it's something more complex because you need you know the tin in order to make the bronze because the copper itself isn't a you know great material but suddenly becomes much better once you add that tin it becomes Bronze or if it's. 09:10.62 archpodnet Ah. 09:16.42 Paul You know, like other things who were found on these on this shipwreck. Um, you know ostrich shells that doesn't That's not a primary material for anything that you're using day to day but that's part of what's going back and forth amongst these elites that are trading with each other their glassing gets there that um glass at that time. 09:22.24 archpodnet Yeah. 09:31.67 archpodnet Um. 09:35.64 Paul Would have been a fairly elite material. It wasn't you know, just a commodity like we have nowadays but their glassing gets on that ship and there are all sorts of other different raw materials or partially processed materials that that were being transshipped on that boat and so again it serves as a little snapshot in time of. 09:36.15 archpodnet Sure. 09:54.70 Paul That But now this article has expanded it out in ah in a direction that I wouldn't have expected when I started reading it I wouldn't have expected it to go in that direction. 10:01.66 archpodnet Yeah, you know I've never worked in that area I've only I've worked in you know old of I gorge in Africa and the United States right and that's pretty much it. But in neither locations did I ever find anything like glass ingots and that actually reading about that. 10:12.18 Paul E. 10:20.93 archpodnet Really had me thinking because I never really thought about transporting like raw glass. It's just not something that was really done here in the United States you know the glass manufacturers would would source it and and create their create their glass and create their bottles that they would need you know pretty much onsite and if they were doing any sort of transporting of of you know. 10:34.13 Paul M. 10:40.66 archpodnet Like a glass ingot. Um, then then it was just it was really short distances short enough that you know I've never heard of any evidence of something like that being found in transit so to speak so I'm wondering with your work in those areas was that a really common relatively common thing about that time to to. You know, create these glass ingots and then sell those rather than just process them into the glass objects that they need to be you know on site or was this do you think this was more of a a luxury item and and it's like a one in a million you'd find on a shipwreck. 11:10.86 Paul Um, I'm guessing here but I believe that it's not entirely uncommon because I think I've seen these same kinds of ink. Its um at various other excavations various other sites across the Middle East ah but you know earlier things we find. 11:18.12 archpodnet Um, okay. 11:27.57 Paul Raw materials being transported. You know Lapis and carnelian and such being transported from central Asia to mesopotamia where gets worked into its final product. We don't very often have the finished good now we may have some things like some various serpentine or soapstone bowls that may have been made in in the zagros. 11:35.70 archpodnet Right. 11:47.90 Paul That then got transported as finished objects into into mesopotamia. But for the most part I believe oh carnelian beads there's certain kinds of carnelian beads that were probably from the Indus Valley um and processed incompletion there. 11:47.80 archpodnet Ah. 11:59.88 archpodnet Okay. 12:04.87 Paul And then transhipped across to ah to mesotamia. But that's a small thing and I kind of wonder if um, you know it's It's certainly going to be a mix whether you you send the finished product or you send the raw materials but I kind of wonder if the size and scale of the work that has to be done. Because when we talk about the the copper and the tin for smelting and we talk about the the glass for glassmaking those are things that have to be done at a particular scale and with a particular technological know-how to have the Kilns to have the furnaces to do those things. Ah, so maybe under certain conditions. It's It's just more efficient to get you know to sell your raw materials to somebody down the road because they're the one that knows how to do it rather than you having to do it yourself and then send the finish product I don't know I'm just a. 12:52.24 archpodnet Right? Yeah, that does make sense. Yeah Upright well just to get into the science of it just a little bit here and pull something from the article. 12:59.40 Paul Wildly speculating here. 13:06.80 archpodnet The researchers used lead isotope trace element and tin isotope analysis ah to determine where these orbes were from and we've mentioned that um and and that was I don't know if we mentioned the the ratios there but I guess one third of the ting in gets 10 ingots were found at uubriant luer. How do you say that? auberon. 13:25.11 Paul Yeah, Ulu baroon. 13:26.19 archpodnet Ah, uluberoon ulu boru right? I got to get that right? Uluburu um, which is the place where the near where the wreck was found and then the remaining 2 thirds were the um, the taist mountains of turkey so and I guess it was the the largest and most securely datad collection ever to found it sounds like it was largest because it was the largest. 13:45.36 archpodnet Shipwreck ever found with this amount in it. So you know yeah. 13:46.46 Paul Oh yeah, no, that's why it's such a famous site is because it is It is the mostest of the most is in terms of of a shipwreck site like this. 13:54.15 archpodnet Well, yeah, and I'm wondering why why? now right? if this was discovered in the early eighty s like why are they just getting around to doing this kind of analysis now is it is it. Do you think it's the inaccessibility of it. They just haven't maybe brought up enough and then. You know in order to be able to do this kind of analysis I wonder. 14:13.27 Paul Um, I honestly don't know. Um you know I do see a couple a couple turks on this ah on this this paper a couple authors are Turkish and and so maybe getting the right know-how in turkey because turkey is um. 14:22.90 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:29.27 archpodnet Ah. 14:31.00 Paul Has been very defensive of making sure that that turks are on archaeological projects or leading them and making it difficult for people who aren't turkish to get on these projects or lead them in particular. So maybe their presence that open this up. Um, it may be that. 14:36.19 archpodnet Sure. 14:49.45 Paul Something changed administratively because you know these as we'll get into in the next article the the chemical analyses are somewhat destructive of the objects you have to take a sample out of it right? So it may be that the the laws changed and that they couldn't you know ten years ago 15:01.17 archpodnet Um, sure. Yeah. 15:08.95 Paul Drill into the back of one of these ingots but they decide that you know what we've got enough of them. Let's do this in the name of science. Um I honestly again I'm just speculating wildly I have no idea why it would take this long. Um. I don't know how long any of these studies actually take you know I do know that for years there'd be people working on the same project on the same sets of materials down that hall from me in Masca and it wasn't because they were slacking off or it wasn't because they didn't have access to the materials it was because it just took that. 15:23.19 archpodnet Yeah. 15:36.46 archpodnet Um. 15:42.30 Paul Long to get the work done. 15:44.94 archpodnet Right? Well, we definitely have those kinds of ah constraints over here in the United States as well when we are working on artifacts that are. Ah, you know, originally belonging to a certain tribe and if that tribe has ah has a good presence and a lot of them do especially in the west coast of the United States and in then in the northeast a little bit. Um, if that tribe has a a good. Hold on the archeological resources in the area. They have a good travel government. They're very well formed and they have their own laws and regulations. Then we see this a lot again in the american west where you're not allowed to do samples on say obsidian as we mentioned earlier. The. Artifacts are going to be you know documented and then if they were collected at all returned back to the tribe for repatriation or whatever they they choose to do with it. So that's um, you know that's pretty common I would say so I could see the same thing happening in other parts of the world for sure where maybe the maybe the ah I don't know the sentiment towards those. 16:33.48 Paul Easy. 16:40.26 Paul Yeah. 16:46.40 archpodnet Side or something that changes or new people come into power. You know it's just you know things change so all right? Well let's go from there and find out what you can do with a portable laser because it sounds real Star Trek and I'm really hoping for that. But it's not back in a minute.