00:00.18 archpodnet Welcome back to episode one ninety four of the archeitech podcast and we're going to talk about an article that was in the November Twenty Twenty two issue of advances in archaeological practice if you don't have access to that. It's through your essay membership if you're not an essay member. Well I would say. Head over to the link in the show notes and it's on Cambridge University press where they that's where the essay holds all their articles from from an official standpoint you could buy it if you want to but you can also contact one of the authors by clicking on their name. They usually have email contact or just search for their name. And they're um, their institution online and you can find it and they'll more than likely be happy to send you an article as we mentioned in the last episode the art authors for the article which is titled a photogrametry assisted methodology for the documentation of complex stratographic relationships. They're always a mouthful. The authors are Brett Whitford Karen I'm going to get all these wrong to you by the way. Ah Karen I should have you do it ca in Kate, let me let me, do it. Let me try it. You know what you do it because these are more in your wheelhouse. These names are all all right? All right? So well Brent Whitford I've got Brent's name um and then camen boya jev boy jev. 00:58.83 Paul Ah, you want me to try go for it. No no, no no, it's on you now. Ah not really. 01:15.33 archpodnet Um, Miroslav Ivanov k tin oh man to to fact sheev and yaor boyageevv. Oh I wonder if they're related to 2 people with the same last name I don't know if that's a common last name or if it's the same last name ah like relation. But. 01:26.75 Paul Oh I didn't even notice that. 01:32.79 Paul Help. 01:34.85 archpodnet Anyway, Paul I didn't have access to this article because I had to renew my essay membership I have read it since you sent it to me about 40 minutes ago and I read your notes but why don't you give us a give us a brief and get us started on this. 01:39.93 Paul M. 01:47.99 Paul Right? So ah this one? Yeah I Love mining aap for for content and every every issue that comes out you know half the ah half the titles the article titles in it looked interesting to me and this one immediately looked interesting to me. 01:54.98 archpodnet Ah. 02:04.70 Paul Looked interesting to me specifically because in the last few episodes of the podcast and talking with Marco um photogrammetry has been coming up a lot. It's turned the corner from you know a few years ago we did ah an episode on ah on structure for motion and. 02:14.33 archpodnet Yeah. 02:22.51 Paul To me. It was very novel at the time and the documentation about how 1 did it at the time in the article that we were reviewing back then um, made it seem like a fairly bespoke sort of approach. Not not something you would just do as a matter of course and. 02:39.38 archpodnet M. 02:41.96 Paul Starting last spring when when at Lago the field Director Satab Bittaminti just brought along her dja mini drone and would just fly it and do photometric models every day of her trench. Ah. 03:01.21 Paul Casually just yeah because that's what why not I can do that you know, ah really opened my eyes to yeah I can't be mystifying this and this goes also to the question of you know, does digital really mean much anymore in archeology because this just a few years ago was a very special tool and now. 03:06.79 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 03:21.35 Paul It's useful to the point of people aren't thinking about it too much. They're just doing it. But for me one of the big issues that I've had even though I've seen some really great work done with photogrammetry is can we use it to reconstruct the volume. 03:25.66 archpodnet M. 03:40.71 Paul Of the of the soils that we're moving of the features and and and context and so on the answer is yes I know we can but I hadn't seen anybody actually doing that with my own eyes I mean I should have talked talked to marco about it because I think that that's something he's been doing. Um. 03:57.68 archpodnet Um. 03:59.38 Paul And I wondered how one would approach it and so the the title of this article made me immediately think. Okay, this is maybe going to tell me how to do it. Unfortunately, it paid off. It does tell me how they did It tells me like these aap articles Often. Do. In a lot of detail. You know with this software and that that menu item and so on um, which for me isn't the most interesting thing I don't think it's particularly useful for some people. It is ah but I want to see just the general process and let me back out a little here I Love cooking. 04:32.15 archpodnet Right. 04:34.90 Paul I Cook all the time I never cook from recipes. But if I'm trying to cook something new I'll kind of half use a recipe until I Grok What they're trying to do and then stop using the recipe and just do it myself. You know so a lot of the Ap articles are recipes but because it's. You know they're software based and big software changes all the time I don't know how long live those recipes are going to be. You know they might be expired a year from now but well written well argued the underlying ideas behind it go between. 05:00.78 archpodnet Um, right right. 05:12.37 Paul You know a recipe telling you to chop up half an onion and some celer you know this much celery and that many carrots you know this size saute them in ah in olive oil for this long until they're you know, tender or whatever ah versus a recipe that says yeah, make a mere pois. Ah, both of those are valid ways. 05:29.71 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:31.58 Paul But the important thing is to know how to make a mere plot and and this article gives you the step by step for a few of the things but mostly it's about making that mirror. Ah, the other thing that really caught my eye about the title and I haven't gotten past the title yet is the yeah. 05:43.60 archpodnet Ah. 05:51.18 Paul Documentation of complex stratigraphic relationships and I thought okay complex stratigraphic relationshipss. That's it because I could figure out a process for doing this with you know, big things with walls whatnot. But. 05:51.66 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:03.83 archpodnet Sure. 06:06.99 Paul All the sites where would really matter would be complex st stratigraphic relationships and so I thought you know knowing from sites I've worked on. Yeah I've worked on some of those sites and then um, flipping through as one does before actually digging into the article. Wow their figure 4 they show of their trenches. 06:26.50 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:26.63 Paul And complex doesn't even come close I mean I look at the they've got an overhead shot north of Mosaic and and also a color illustration of that same level and that color illustration positively makes me itch.. There are so many like post holes and pits and different layers things going on all at once. It's amazing. The detail that they're doing So What it really does. It's just a splatter all over except for what that face right? in the middle you see that face. 06:56.00 archpodnet It it looks like a Jackson Pollock painting if anybody can pull that imagery in their head. Ah right right? Yeah oh I can I can see it. Yeah I pulled that out too. 07:04.82 Paul The guy with the flat black cap. Ah, anyhow, um, yeah, so seeing that I thought okay well you know what I believe them when they say complex stratographic relations. Um. 07:23.52 archpodnet Um. 07:24.35 Paul That is very complex and clearly they care about reproducing it. So That's why I decided you know hey maybe I might learn how to make that Miropois and maybe I'll learn about it from people who clearly are better cooks than I am you know. Ah, so that's why I dug into it. 07:44.20 archpodnet Okay, well this is from a site just to set the stage What we're talking about here. This is from a site called Tell Unit site is in my saying that right? do you think Unit site does that sound by right I don't know. 07:56.51 Paul Ah I don't know if it's units I looked at it online on Wikipedia it's got a bunch of different names unit site. You not Sita I'm not sure how it's pronounced because I don't know bulgarian. 08:01.40 archpodnet Yeah. Yeah don't either is that e on the end like pronounced or is it just like site like we would say I doubt it's like what we would say in english but anyway it's it's in Bulgaria. It's been excavated since 2000? Well, they've been exivating it since 2013. 08:12.30 Paul No. 08:21.52 archpodnet And ah the first exclaations over 1939 right yeah let's see. Yeah it says they have levels dating from the neolithic through the medieval periods with some gaps in between so there is just there's a lot of use that's been on this site throughout time and that's not. 08:25.22 Paul Um, yeah, that's what they said. 08:40.92 archpodnet I would say uncommon especially for that area. You know we I mean we've seen sites like that all the time in the United States as well. Um, where you've got just a complex relationship especially along waterways or resources or something like that where you're just going to have you know centuries and centuries and centuries of of reoccupation and use by maybe the same people probably different people. 08:47.53 Paul Um. 09:00.54 archpodnet Who knows but different technologies and things through time so documenting that and visualizing it is a complex task. 09:09.00 Paul Now the site itself they said tell I was like there are tell sites in that part of the world. But um, but when you see the aerial imagery of it and the reconstructed Dtm of it. Yeah, it's it's a Tel site and that being that people have gone to that same spot of land. 09:18.90 archpodnet Yeah. 09:25.52 Paul Repeatedly over the Millennia and done their stuff and as people do things they accumulate trash where they live then structures and everything else and so it's layered up you know occupation upon occupation activity upon activity to form a human-made hill and that's what tell is and that's what this site is. 09:30.30 archpodnet Right. 09:42.86 archpodnet Ah. 09:44.24 Paul Um, their interest. Ah well so I think it must be from the 1939 excavations that hill is very round and it's bisected right down the middle and half of that top has been cleared off. 09:56.99 archpodnet Um, right. 09:59.76 Paul And then you can see in the photos a bunch of you know, 5 by 5 trenches which must be theirs so I'm guessing that those earlier excavations back in the era of big digs dug away that whole top half. But what they're starting from is um is early ah to late cal. Well they're starting from late calcalith going down to early cal. 10:11.20 archpodnet Right. 10:20.53 Paul Levels and I think they said something like 11 different levels there that they've been in so far and it looks like they still have a few more meters to go in the site before they hit the level of the plane. So it's it's a substantial site and again that complex stratographic relations. It looks like they're trying to dig it. 10:21.79 archpodnet Chase. 10:30.95 archpodnet Um. 10:37.49 Paul Very carefully very stratographically with really complete documentation and it's that complete documentation that allows them then to do what the you know the meat of this ah of this article is the photogrammetry. 10:52.83 archpodnet It's interesting to me with the figure 2 shows the shows that you can see that that bisecting of the tell site and then it shows the the the models that they've built you know around that from the what it what it originally would it looked like and then what it looks like now as well and it. 11:07.23 Paul Um. 11:09.32 archpodnet It's impressive to me the discipline that has been shown here for the last eighty years to not dig that other half is to be honest with you right? Like how often do you see that where it's like bisected right down the middle and they just continue excavating over here probably with the thought that it's much the same on the other side. I would assume unless there's something really special over there. But I guess what are the chances of that I don't know much about tell sites and what this could be. You know could that be something like they haven't found the thing that a tell site would have in this area I don't really know but um to not dig that over there provides ah a nice little preservation example and and just. Ah, a cross section right down the middle. 11:48.96 Paul Um, yeah, just sliced. It's It's really it's It's a sight to behold. 11:53.68 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they say here that the dating of the sites in this period in the early to late calcolithic is not clear and they do say that that's probably related to um the need for better Radiocarbo calibration curves for the region. So. Dating is an issue One of the issues that they're working with here and they say that the method they've come up with um, will allow for better stratographic documentation and help address the you know better stratographic documentation. Basically. 12:10.63 Paul E. 12:26.47 archpodnet They're hoping we'll start addressing some of the dating issues that are in the site and in the surrounding sites. So that's why they're using this technique to try to try to do that A little better. 12:27.52 Paul Oh. 12:36.56 Paul Yeah, so it's a bit of a call to arms too. It's like hey look at how well we can document this incredibly complex site if we teach other people How to do the same then maybe we can start having the same conversation so they raise this. Um, as one of the points early on in the article but then they don't actually dig into that. 12:37.86 archpodnet Yeah. 12:53.81 Paul The rest of it becomes more and more technical about what they did and why they did um and so to cut to the chase here. Essentially what their method does It allows them to create section drawings anywhere across a trench without having to leave balks. 12:58.70 archpodnet Oh. 13:09.15 archpodnet Yeah. 13:11.34 Paul So normally right, you dig your your 5 by 5 you ten by 10 You're 2 by 2 whatever it is and you have the balk as a witness for the strata that you didn't notice as you're digging down or I didn't notice as I know want to do um. 13:23.12 archpodnet Ah, right? like what's that layer doing over there. Oh shit. Ah, ah. 13:27.53 Paul Oh oh yeah, oh I thought it seemed a little darker there. But yeah, when you see it in section. Holy Cow That's a fire pit. Ah, ah yeah, I'm a terrible Digger I Admit it I love it. But I I can't do it unsupervised. 13:30.60 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 13:43.19 archpodnet Nice, yeah indeed. Yeah, you know this crazy thing about these box balks I see these when we read articles from really you know Europe to Middle East these these regions over here. Eastern Europe 13:43.60 Paul I need somebody better than me otherwise back to the food analogy I'm going to burn it. 14:01.74 archpodnet You you see it all over there. But I have almost I can't think of a single time when I've excavated in that way in the United States and I've done a lot of excavation in Nevada and I've did a lot of excavation down in the southeast and a little bit up in the the northeast United States and we just. 14:08.73 Paul M. 14:19.63 archpodnet So we I mean we just opened up another unit and just kept on digging if it was a 1 by 1 in a block excavation. We just kept on doing it now we usually did it in ten centimeter levels so every ten centimeters we would have a floor plan on our notes. So there's that and and those could probably be reconstructed for some sort of. 14:30.92 Paul M. 14:37.85 archpodnet Sort of rough 3 d model you know a low resolution 3 d model but aside from that we did not record those those bulks. Um, so I think a photogrametric method would be good for something like digging where I've done because if you're if you're taking images periodically as you're going down. 14:39.69 Paul M. 14:56.28 archpodnet And creating those layers then you can do a lot with that later on. 14:59.67 Paul yeah yeah I mean it requires the discipline which again is something that they seem to have on this um, the traditional way of leaving lots of balks um is called the Wheeler Wheeler kenyan box grid and that's you know, leaving a. 15:13.51 archpodnet Yeah. 15:17.53 Paul It looks almost like there even though the disparaging of it ah in the article it looks almost like that's what they're doing here. These are 5 by 5 units but they all have very defined but ah ballks around them and that's actually not a way I've tended to excavate myself. Um on the project. But I think that's because most of the are are most of the. Projects I've worked on have been in the Middle East and they've been architecture focused and so once you hit walls and such depending on the strategy oftentimes. You'll follow those architectural spaces instead of your arbitrary you know North Southeastwest grid um but that that varies project to project. Anyhow, ah. 15:39.62 archpodnet Um. 15:55.50 Paul The dependency on leaving the bulks then for the wheeler kenyan grid box grid system means that you cut up your your site in ways that make it hard sometimes to connect from 1 end to another or from one trench to another from one unit to another. Ah. 16:09.35 archpodnet Ah. 16:11.93 Paul To deal with that. Another thing that they also kind of throw away is the Harris Matrix and I don't care for the Harris matrix myself I understand why people find it useful and I understand why it's in the workflow of so many projects. But. They hit for me the nail right on the head as to why they they say and I'm just going to quote straight out of it says an additional method the Harris matrix Although useful is merely a representation of stratographic relationships in 2 D Diagram form that provides no visual. So facsimile of the field. From which to make further assessments interpretation or corrections. So for me, it's that it's that transposing of the the layers from this kind of organic sense of what's interrelated with everything else to a very sterile grid System. You know. 16:48.49 archpodnet Right. 17:05.74 Paul For 2 d representation and for me I lose a lot there. It's like going between tasting the food and just reading the ingredients list. 17:10.28 archpodnet Um, ah. 17:12.94 archpodnet Right? Yeah hear you? Well I think with that we will take a break and just incidentally and I'll leave this in the show notes. But back at the what was it the 2017 essays in Vancouver canada I interviewed Edward Harris 17:27.36 Paul Um, yes I remember. 17:30.71 archpodnet The inventor of the harris matrix yeah on the archeology show episode thirteen I I knew I did it I had to look it up on the Apn while you were mentioning that and I'll drop that link in the show notes because it was really it was a really interesting one. Yeah. 17:38.57 Paul Yeah, no, that was a great episode and I remember it and I listened to it and I was like afterwards I'm like okay I got to give this another try and I went and I tried to give it another try and I came away going Yes, still not for me. Well not hate it because I don't think it's a bad thing I think it's a very good thing and very useful. 17:48.73 archpodnet Still hate it. 17:57.83 Paul But it it just does not work the way my brain works and so you know it doesn't help it doesn't yeah so you know there. So once they mentioned that I was all in on the article because you know at that point. 18:02.81 archpodnet Ah I hear you? Yeah yeah I I Never really used it either. 18:14.83 Paul They'd hit all the things the complex stratographic relationships the photogrammetry hey we've got a way of doing it hey if you use our method. You know we can. We can have a conversation. Um, oh and these other things that might potentially be useful but we don't think so for these reasons and yeah so I was all in at that point. 18:28.30 archpodnet Right? Nice, nice, all right? Well let's go ahead and take a break and come back and wrap this article up back in a minute.