00:02.50 archpodnet Welcome back to the arche tech podcast episode one ninety five and we're talking about the changing landscape of archeological survey as the title suggests and let's just ah, we're wrapping up this topic in segment three here paul where do you see. Where do you see things going from here. What? what? What have we got left to talk about it regarding archeological survey changing as you see it. 00:22.59 Paul So from the academic archeology perspective. What I've seen change is as it becomes more and more of a peer to excavation. It's being applied at a variety of different scales right? And so there's this. 00:35.61 archpodnet So. 00:38.70 Paul Greater understanding. Maybe this is coming out of the gis world. You know where we're thinking about the world and landscapes at at a variety of different scales and phenomena a variety of different scales and effects. Um, but whereas like I said initially was to find where the sites were that you're going to excavate then. Through landscape archeology. There's a lot of a lot of interrogation of what the relationship is of different sites and non-site areas too. Ah, but then some of the same tools and this is kind of where my my logo survey comes in some of the same tools can be applied not just between sites and to locate sites and around sites. But actually within sights and again this is nothing new. Um the work that I've done in Lagosh in many ways builts off of work that was done by Elizabeth Carter in 1984 on the same site so you know this has been going on for quite a while but it's. 01:24.67 archpodnet Oh. 01:33.10 Paul And maybe it's just me and maybe it's just the things I've been reading but it seems like there's been just a growing appreciation and a growing comfort with the tools of archeological survey in archeology writlar both both ah academic archeology and and Crm archeology. Um, and. 01:52.95 Paul A big part of that is I think that you know the tool set that we're using for actually doing it is converging right? So you know we're we're discussing yeah gis and that gets applied in multiple scales. We've I'm sure reviewed articles on this podcast where. 01:59.10 archpodnet Right. 02:10.12 Paul Where people are using the tools of Gis for analyzing things at the level of the trenches and the ah the architecture within those trenches. So. It's not just a landscape tool anymore but archaeologists are using it for fairly small things. Yeah, so. I think that that's just kind of an underlying theme of what's happened. But then as those tools converge you know there are a whole bunch of different tools that I could point to that we use daily in a bunch of different ways. 02:39.20 archpodnet And I think the interesting thing about that right is and especially I mean we have a kind of a different view on this because we're always talking about these things and we talk to people who are of like mine because otherwise we probably wouldn't be talking to them but I feel like. Yeah I feel like the industry as a whole especially like crm and then you know academia it seems like they're always because people have to do unique research and different things. They're always trying to find some way to to kind of do something new. It seems um so that's kind of pushing things forward, but from a crm standpoint even though. There's still definitely people out there that are doing like you know the same thing. They've always done old school methods on on doing certain things I think what's changed is they know they should be doing something different versus like ten fifteen years ago they're like oh you know this is how it's done and and and we're going to do this thing but now they're like. And the back of their mind I feel like they know that they could be doing more. They know that there's there's something else that they could apply to this survey to make it better to make it easier to make it more efficient. You know something like that and I think that shift is really starting to happen. It's probably a generational shift to be honest with you but it also could be things like. 03:40.55 Paul Mentioned something like that ship really starting. 03:49.22 archpodnet I Mean not to tune our own harm but things like this podcast and other papers and other Journals highlighting the technological advances that people are making in archaeological survey and Beyond and that being more ubiquitous and and just kind of getting in people's brains. You know what? I mean so much like digital archeology. 04:03.97 Paul Like in oraly. 04:07.36 archpodnet Removing the word digital and assuming it's all digital archeology. Um I feel like archeological survey is set for a paradigm shift a little bit where it's really going to be changing in the next like ten years on how we do it. 04:19.99 Paul Yeah I think that you're right and I think that actually the change may have have already started or happened even it's just the the reception of it is changing and we may see that full receptions change to the point that you know. 04:27.17 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 04:36.40 Paul One doesn't have to necessarily specify archeological excavation or archaeological survey and just as archeology and it's understood that it could be either or both or one side or the other weighted one way or the other depending on the ah the needs. Um, and that there isn't that kind of hierarchy of. 04:41.56 archpodnet Yeah. 04:54.22 Paul Yeah, you found it in survey but that what does that really tell us I mean and you know we who do survey know that there are all sorts of complicating factors taenomic processes questions of chronology displacement of objects blah Blah Blah Ah but. 04:58.25 archpodnet Um. 05:13.85 Paul You know if if we have ah a set of tools that we're using and a set of methods that we're using that can then assuage people's concerns that is that real archeology I think that that we're really getting close to that point, you know if we haven't already crossed over into it. 05:28.10 archpodnet Um, yeah, well yeah, but just like you said you know as as we've kind of crossed over into it. The tools are becoming more readily available too right? like just take photography. For example I mean I know when I. 05:32.72 Paul Um, so go ahead. 05:42.83 Paul Like absolutely I know when I my first. 05:45.90 archpodnet When I first started out, you know we had point and shoot cameras on almost every project that weren't even digital slrs like a lot of them were just point and shoot digital cameras At least they were digital I didn't really I came in when the only thing that was really using film. Maybe. 05:51.60 Paul No arms camera. 06:01.66 archpodnet And and this was right at the beginning of my archeological career was architectural stuff had to be taken with a black and white camera that was a film camera that had to be developed in certain states. That's all transition to digital now as far as I know there may be some still still some holdouts but it's hard to find the film and hard to find a place to develop it and agencies know that. So. 06:07.80 Paul Point Camera camera the. 06:18.71 Paul Yeah. 06:19.47 archpodnet So that is starting to change too but just like the the digital photography or photography as we call it. We can drop the word digital now because pretty much photography is all digital and not only that but nearly everyone has a ah. Something in their pocket that can do light photogrammetry with a free app they can download from the app store. 06:39.55 Paul Yeah, oh that's right? Yeah yeah I mean the ah that tool that phone. Yeah, we've mentioned it before but the the way that that that phone that sits in your pocket that you've got with you all the time has has really. 06:54.38 Paul Consolidated and transformed so many of the things that we do made it so much easier I mean there's a saying with photographers. The best camera is the camera that you have on you you know, ah don't obsess about having the best gear because you know if you have the best gear but it's sitting home locked in a safe. 06:55.70 archpodnet Yeah. 07:02.70 archpodnet Brett. 07:10.38 Paul It's not going to take a good picture at all because what you really need is that camera that you have on you when you see that perfect sunset or you know the the once in a lifetime event that happens. Ah but to digital photography I mean that's huge for me for me probably more than anything else. 07:18.70 archpodnet Yeah. 07:25.59 Paul Ah, that's transformed the way that I do my work because when I started in archeology. It was still film and I was brought on a number of projects as the photographer and I would go out into the field with 2 slrs one that was loaded up with color slide film and one that was loaded up with black and white. 07:33.26 archpodnet Ah. Yeah. 07:44.38 Paul The black and white would be for the for the publications and the color slide would be for the slideshows. You know? so you know there there wasn't the ability to print things in color. There wasn't the ability to distribute pdfs of your report in color on the web. None of that existed one was a print format and the other was. 07:48.45 archpodnet Right. 08:04.80 Paul Ah, slide carousel at a lecture format and that was it. Um, so so the advent of digital photography is really and I'm using it. We're digital. But here you know I mean has really changed the way that we do photography and then like you said on the phones and that's. 08:07.73 archpodnet And yeah. 08:17.69 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:22.38 Paul Opening up a lot of other things I mean we laid out this is an excavation. Not ah, not a survey, but we laid out a trench last season. Um using the ah the measuring app on my phone you know and the compass on my phone. 08:37.90 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, sure. But it's pretty close. 08:39.50 Paul Ah, in order to to lay it Out. You know we we refined it with with tapes. But but it got us really close. Yeah, Ah so that's a huge change. Um, yeah in a lot of ways and the other big change and I know you are itching to talk about this that I've seen is. How we record non photographic or sometimes photographic data and that would be tablets. 08:59.77 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, and and not only that but tablets is I've actually almost for me transitioned right? back to phones for survey and and tablets are more of an excavation tool because of the the screen size and what you're doing on it but to that point it was tablets that came out. 09:09.64 Paul Back 1 09:19.24 archpodnet A lot more a lot more I think ah a few steps ahead of the phone actually when like the first ipad came out as an example, um I bought the first ipad when I was in grad school April of 2010 when it was first released and you know spent all my money on it and you know because I was a poor grad student. But I bought it anyway and. 09:25.43 Paul People. 09:37.54 Paul Ah, immediately started. 09:38.47 archpodnet Immediately started looking at ways I could use it for archaeology and I I actually used it for data recording in our shallo geo physics course over the summer um it overheated many times because the Georgia Athens georgian summer is no joke. So I'd have to put it in the. 09:42.62 Paul Archeology again might use different data recording in archology. 09:55.22 archpodnet In the van and and cool it down on the air conditioning or something like that. But you know the gpr was overheating too. So I didn't feel too bad, but that being said, um, tablets have come a long way and when we're out doing survey. We almost rarely actually bring a tablet anymore. We might have one that has like. Maps and stuff on it and maybe we're doing gis on that tablet just because it's a bigger format and that's the one connected to our submeter gps but aside from that all the recording and all the little things are just they're happening on a smartphone because they're big enough and it's like people are used to typing with their thumbs and you could just do that really quickly. So. Still see tablets as a really strong resource for excavation because you can you could even take like an overview photograph and draw on top of that rather than freehand or using somebody else in a plum Bob you know those kinds of things but you can ah if you're still even drawing. You know, plan views and things like that. But you know. There's there's a lot you can do and you got to use the right tool for the right job but they've both come so far. 10:51.44 Paul Yeah, that's funny that you're mentioning tablets like that because maybe this is a point in in this argument I'm making that that the higher tech stuff comes in via survey before it gets to excavation because all the excavations I've been involved in lately. Use papers still and it drives me crazy sometimes ah but they have their systems and it works for them and they don't want to change it. They don't want to shake it up pretty much every survey that I've worked on recently is tablets with no paper component. You know, um with the exception of like labels that go on bags or something. Yeah. 11:11.50 archpodnet Brett. 11:22.95 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:28.89 Paul So um, so that's interesting that then also back where intersex survey in particular is and you've just mentioned it having the gis on the tablet that mobile Gis capability is groundbreaking it was. It's absolutely central to what I did with the logar survey. 11:40.56 archpodnet Yeah, it's huge. 11:46.15 Paul But I'm not the only one doing it and I'm certainly not the only person to think about it and that's because that's the other big technological change that um, that happened since I started this is ah Gps Gnss Yeah, you used to. 11:58.25 archpodnet Yeah, for sure, it's It's come so far and it's gotten so accurate on different devices and and not only that but like the submeter gpss that you can get have come so far down in price that there. Pretty affordable for companies at most sizes. 12:17.65 Paul Yeah, and and then you know even if you're not using it in that case I guarantee you that everybody that's doing survey right now is using Google maps or something very similar to find out where they're supposed to get the car to on the site right? and and so just that that. Kind of really prosaic integration of what used to be high end technologies gps that that this you know this high resolution screen on the cell phone. The the term by turn navigation. Whatever it is you know. When you started you were probably working off of paper maps right? Yeah and so you'd be given a paper map said and told where the the ah the land was he had to go survey and somebody may have scrawled on you know to go through this gate. Ah. 12:52.28 archpodnet Um, yeah, absolutely. 13:07.83 Paul Or many you make the or they'd written out directions by hand you know turn at the big tree something like that and now you can get your your exact directions where you've got to go and and we don't think too much about it anymore because it's become so common. 13:08.64 archpodnet Um, absolutely yeah. 13:22.54 archpodnet Yep, and that's totally true man. It's ah it's changed so much just in the you know I've only been doing surveys since well realistically about 2005 right? So about 17 years but it's just so different from that early shovel testing back in you know Florida South Carolina and and the the information we were given and how we were expected to work and you know like 1 person out there may have had the tremble because they were $10000 you know and ah. 13:41.80 Paul You know. Person out there may have had the troublele. Yeah $10000. 13:51.88 archpodnet Still not super cheap, but there's other ways like there wasn't even you know wasn't even common for somebody to have just like a handheld Gps so they could keep themselves on track at ah at a course scale. But um, you know it's ah it's all changed so much and we've got just a handful of more things to talk about here before we close out this show but man things have. Things are really advancing quickly. I think. 14:15.22 Paul Yeah, and yeah, the Gps one just floors me because when I first used it on my dissertation in 97 I had to borrow a fairly expensive one from my advisor um the ah the grad student that was in charge of it wasn't. 14:28.50 archpodnet Ah. 14:30.74 Paul Thrilled with let me use it but he figured that they weren't using it at that time. So I might as well and it was slow. It was one Antenna we still had selective availability so it wasn't very accurate on its own and then that accuracy was further degraded by ah by the military degrading The signal intentionally. 14:38.40 archpodnet M. 14:49.77 Paul And then ah you know so you'd set it out. You'd wait for a thing but at least I had a real point that I could point to on the map and then the next time out I had a much faster one that had like I don't know how many antennas twelve. Maybe it could track 12 ah 12 satellites at a time I think um. 14:50.40 archpodnet Yeah. 15:01.37 archpodnet Um. 15:06.63 archpodnet Yeah. 15:08.71 Paul You know and that that was getting better and now we have things that are you know subcetimeter not in the handheld. So you know consumer space. But the thing that you've got on your phone or on your Gps Enable tablet are are really good. Anyhow, certainly better than what we used to have and. Yeah, that. That's just been revolutionary to me too almost not quite as close as the digital photography has but but you know for me a close second and then with the tablets because that's where I tend to interface with my Gps is now. In the mobile gis on my tablets and that's just this confluence of all sorts of different things and then I take that tablet or that phone that's helped me with the Gps and I mount it on the top of the controller and I fly my drone. 15:54.86 archpodnet Ah, there you go drink. Ah. 15:56.61 Paul I Had to end up with that right. 16:01.44 archpodnet Ah, well and I think just to wrap up here I mean obviously drones we've been talking about those for you know at least a decade now seriously in archeology and probably earlier for some people but it's ah what you can do with drones What they're capable of you know the different. Different things that we're you know attaching to them and different sensors and stuff like that. It's just getting better and better and then combining that technology and your digital photography and and all the other keys to and components to to a survey. 16:20.68 Paul Getting better and better that technology and digital. 16:29.38 archpodnet And applying that to what I think is probably the most cutting edge thing that we're doing today and only a handful of people are really doing this in any meaningful way. But that's machine learning and and using Ai and machine learning to really to really start taking the guesswork out of things and um and the and the human. 16:37.10 Paul That machine me. 16:47.24 archpodnet Bias and error that we can put in that we don't even know that we're doing and and really get some solid strong answers. People might disagree with that. But I think when it's taught properly because the key word to machine learning is learning it. It has to learn correctly and you know and and. And understand what its inputs are in order to give good outputs. But I think it's going to be the thing that really changes archeology and not only that the world to be honest with you. Um, going forward. 17:15.81 Paul Yeah I'm a little less um, less convinced to you that it's going to remove Bias but it is going to be a huge tool. In fact, we're with the magnetopture data from Lago We're starting to explore the ah the opportunity to analyze it with machine Learning. It seems like it would be a good project for somebody's Master's paper in computer Science. For example, so you know it's It's definitely.. It's something we're going to be pushing forward and to wrap it back Up. It's going to be something that helps us identify where and how and why we're going to do the surveys and then at the. 17:35.63 archpodnet Yeah. 17:50.41 Paul Tail end. It's going to help us with the ah with the analysis of the data that we produce that we generate that we collect and back to your point about the learning. Hopefully that gets fed right back in and it becomes a virtuous loop of of better source data better outputs working their way back In. As Source data. 18:11.24 archpodnet Nice all right? Well with that I think we will end this show again if you want to continue the conversation with us and tell us how it's going in in in your area where you work or your country then join us and our fellow. Ah. 18:26.58 archpodnet Our fellow members to the archeology podcast member and and fans of the show over on our slack team and you can do that by joining us at either a monthly or annual rate which is pretty affordable when you look at all the other things that we're paying for out there. It's usually cheaper than like a venti latte from Starbucks every month. So think about that. And you can help us keep the lights on over herearpodnet.comforward/membersandwe'dreallyappreciateit. So with that thanks a lot and we'll see you next time. 18:50.52 Paul Thanks a lot bye.