00:00.39 archpodnet All right welcome to the show. Everybody Paul is still doing fieldwork on the other side of the planet and it's nighttime for him so he won't be joining us for this episode but that's no problem because I've got an interview with standby just got to move my screen here and I've got an interview with. Michael Hyland and Shelby Mane Michael and Shelby welcome to the show. 00:22.74 Michael Heilen Thank you Chris it's great to be here. 00:26.78 Shelby A Manney Um, yeah, afraid to be here. Thanks. 00:26.94 archpodnet All right? So you guys are on because you are promoting the February 2023 issue of advances in archeological practice on refining archeological data collection and management. And you guys were the guest editors of that episode. So I don't know which 1 he wants to go first. But how did this come together. What what brought you into this. 00:46.85 Shelby A Manney Um, well Michael I'll let you say some things and then then all I can interject go ahead. 00:52.50 archpodnet Sounds good. Yeah. 00:54.29 Michael Heilen All right? Well So yeah, so I mean we've had ah an interest in in trying to to move the needle in terms of how archeology and also particularly Crm does does business and and particularly with in respect to. To data and we feel that the there's been a lot of discussion of data practices and approaches particularly with digital data in most recent years but they. Usually consider one portion of the data life Cyclee or workflow and what we want to try to address is that perhaps to to address what we call in in introduction to the issue. The the archeology's data problem. 01:31.85 archpodnet Me. 01:45.50 Michael Heilen Is that we really need to look at the entire data cycle and life cycle and workflow and consider all the elements because they're all linked together and they impact each other particularly starting with the the planning and data collection and and data collection itself. The. This particular issue began with a symposium that Shelby and I organized at the essay meetings which were to be in San Francisco and 2021 and we had. 02:17.81 archpodnet Oh. 02:22.46 Michael Heilen Invited Ah, a lot of people that we thought were you know involved in in various aspects of of this problem and had some things to say and we got a great group of ah of presenters together presented some some really inspiring and and we thought visionary. 02:41.85 archpodnet M. 02:42.12 Michael Heilen Papers So we reached out to the editors that advances in archeological practice to see if we might organize a special issue surrounding the subject. 02:54.68 archpodnet Okay. 02:56.62 Shelby A Manney Yeah I mean um, Michael and I have been interested in um, in data not just archeological data probably for least for me for most of my life. Um, and ah funny thing I didn't want to be an archeologist. Um I loved. Data and linear thinking and was an annoying child that had to make sure everything was backed up by facts and data and statistics writing to local newspapers telling them that you can't say that you have no data to back it up that kind of kid. So so I ah had a lot of trouble with human interaction in people. 03:18.36 archpodnet Nice. 03:24.89 archpodnet Ah, that's awesome. 03:32.28 Shelby A Manney And so um I thought I said well I need to figure out the data problem there I don't have the data to understand people and then I found out that well the only way you can get access to deep data about humans become an archeologist so I did that and so we've been wrangling with these issues found Michael and um. 03:33.50 archpodnet Um. 03:45.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:51.78 Shelby A Manney This is just a series in in several different types of publications and and things that we've been doing to try to make what is seems to be static looking at static data and archeology like it's this time period and we have neat little ah tables that say this is this time period and that's that time period and this is this Ah this. 04:10.95 archpodnet Now. 04:11.85 Shelby A Manney On Period This is et Cetera period Um, put on a nice table divided by dates that may or may not be you know for rough dates So um is thinking about as living data through time they can tell us stuff now and you know in the past and now and. And in the future but in order to do that. We have to look at as archaeologists a whole data lifecycle and how that's connected to this dynamic and living Ecosystem. You know this big blue globe that we're in instead of just in very pinpointed time and space. So That's thinking about that we wanted to get people together. And wanted to make the issue you know, also something that was um, accessible you know to publish it with you know, open free. You know copyright so that people could share it and start discussing the topics that are in there so we can come together. 04:56.39 archpodnet Maha. 05:07.94 Shelby A Manney And then integrate with others outside of our field you know in a more robust way to start thinking about data as being linked in this cycle. 05:17.60 archpodnet Okay, well that's ah, an excellent primer into you know how the issue came about and and what you guys are doing. Let's talk about you guys again. Real quick before we get into some other stuff that's in the issue Shelby all start with you without. You know we do we try to keep employers and things like that out of these conversations. Just keep a little more generic but what is your what is your day-to-day look like what's your day job around this. 05:37.96 Shelby A Manney Well I am the deputy director and now interim director of environmental of the environmental management office for The Arizona Army National guard ah so ah I started here as the principal investigator. 05:48.63 archpodnet Okay. 05:56.87 Shelby A Manney And my life was actually in crm the majority of it I know 15 years or whatever it was as ah as one of the leads for t or c and so I've tried doing this sort of thing getting data. 06:00.49 archpodnet Okay. 06:13.34 Shelby A Manney Answering questions about the human past and integrating it into biological data, geological ecology, etc and different environmental data as a phorm you know archeologist and then in academia and it's been. Tough going. So I decided okay, well if I'm an agency archeologist and I have land. You know we've have 32 facilities so I um I have a good data sample. So I literally picked my job based on the data sample so that I would have access to different. You know. 06:44.99 archpodnet Okay. 06:51.62 Shelby A Manney Cultural areas. Um and you know, ah, ah, ecological zones so that ah I could test out certain things and see ah see if we. Can possibly do that also to influence policy so because a Dod owns a lot of land and so integrating it with other people in the army the dod maybe we can have it come all together and show you know the federal government and others in a way that we can ask. 07:09.66 archpodnet Sure. 07:27.73 Shelby A Manney Broader questions about the human past and its integration into this living and dynamic ecosystem than I was talking about. 07:33.36 archpodnet Awesome! That sounds pretty exciting. Actually I love it. Um, and and what about you Michael what's your day job look like. 07:41.65 Michael Heilen Ah, well I am ah the director of what's called the center for the study of cultural Landscapes at a which is embedded within a crm firm and a lot of my career and in crm. Um. 07:56.32 archpodnet Ah. 08:00.85 Michael Heilen The past maybe 15 years has been in directing the research for a large and complex projects some of them large excavations other ones sort of land extensive surveys or or. Excavations in many different areas as part of a transportation project and through that I had a lot of opportunities to do to synthesize try to compile synthesize large data sets I do have a focus in geospatial and quantitative analysis. 08:22.13 archpodnet 11 08:37.31 Michael Heilen And within the last for the last few years I began working with Shelby and and her office supporting them in the in modeling in developing developing data models and. Schemes and collection and management schemes for their cultural resource and natural resource data and in trying to to come up with both sort of analytical technological and also human workflows for. Sort of pushing the ah envelope and in how we do crm and and integrate it with natural resource management activities that that shel be overseas. 09:22.96 archpodnet Okay. 09:29.71 archpodnet Nice all right? Well again also sounds exciting I Love it. So You know we're going to talk about some of the stuff in the ah in the issue of advances in archaeological practice. But I just kind of want to talk to you guys about this whole topic just you know, just bringing it up. Because it sounds like you're really into this and the fact that you guys are both in Crm or or were in crm for a long Time. You know as well as I do that you know the initial data problem in this whole business comes right from the boots on the ground people that are collecting the data right. 09:58.96 Shelby A Manney Yes. 10:01.10 archpodnet I mean I was in I was in cm as a field technician and as a crew chief and a project manager for a long time I've worked in 1819 different states in different regions around the country interestingly enough I never really worked in the southwest except for like New Mexico but I almost don't even count. It was just like a month maybe too. Um. And that was pretty much it I worked in the southeast the Northeast California Nevada Washington you know a lot of places in the midwest and in between and everybody collects the same things I've always said this on this podcast. We all collect information about artifacts features and landscapes we take pictures and we do descriptions. But literally every state does it differently right? Everybody has different forms. Everybody has different terms and different. You know ways of doing this I figure if we're going to talk about the data collection problem in this country I mean we have to start right? There don't we and what's the solution. 10:38.36 Michael Heilen Exactly. 10:40.16 Shelby A Manney Yeah, the town and. 10:51.20 Shelby A Manney Up there. Yes, and that's. 10:52.11 Michael Heilen I think he yeah I think it hit the nail on the head there I mean that's absolutely a great characterization of the of the problem. Ah go ahead. Shelby. 10:56.38 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:03.50 Shelby A Manney That's well, that's definitely what? Um, if you know if you look at what we have so I divided up my strategy. Um and that I've tried to do like I said through some various you know I'm trying any profession I possibly can to do it. Um. 11:03.71 archpodnet Um. 11:16.98 archpodnet Husband. 11:20.00 Shelby A Manney Divide up my strategy into the data life cycle and looking at both human workflows meaning how we do things and the data workflows and trying to match those those up um to to get rid of a site concept and more look At. You know initial observation. So if we think of you know, kind of the scientific method. Um and making sure that we can be as accurate as possible in the initial observation especially when excavation is involved because we can't go back so looking at the data collection as you said is. 11:51.35 archpodnet Ah. 11:55.76 Shelby A Manney Paraon is critical is the cornerstone of everything else that comes after it and because artifacts move on the ground. It's a dynamic system of aggregation dispersion whether it's through time or at the time of Posit. We have to do repeated observations in order to understand the full observation. Not just a site that is dog-leaashed so looking at the collection problem and why we collect things differently is Nonsensical. We need to have even if we disagree we need to have ah an understanding and a basic concept of. Higher level ontologies higher level categories that at least will allow us to open up a conversation and collect things thematically so that I don't have to try to greater integrate something that was completely collected differently then obfuscated by the facts that people have. 12:33.83 archpodnet Move. 12:45.72 Shelby A Manney Normalized it moved it around and the only original data is on someone's computer. So all I have are these documents maybe and these reports as out so I have no idea how they collected it sometimes collection is critical I agree with you 100% Michael 12:54.19 archpodnet Um, yeah. 13:03.89 Shelby A Manney He. 13:04.65 Michael Heilen Um, ah well I think you said it very well. The I mean that is crux of the problem and I think if we could get to a state where where we're actually collecting things that funnel into some sort of common core. Ontology or or meta-ontology and and basically agree that that as Chris says the um, we're basically making observations about the same types of things were just ah, schematizing and them or. 13:34.23 archpodnet Oh. 13:40.89 Michael Heilen In different ways in different formats. Sometimes a bewildering variety of of of forms and and and specific methods are used but but that's and it's it's. It's an obstacle to our ability to understand the past and to leverage the data the massive amounts of data that are being collected in Crm to understand our present and you know chart the future or make sense of those data and. 14:06.70 archpodnet So now. 14:13.93 Michael Heilen You know, make them also available to other disciplines that could could make um, could benefit from ah an archeological perspective. 14:17.62 Shelby A Manney Um, yes. 14:21.61 archpodnet Yeah. 14:23.77 Shelby A Manney And I Honestly don't think that the that the issue here is that you know that it's an impossible and surmountable task. I mean there's several.. There's lots of other sciences and lots of other disciplines that do this even human human data disciplines like say I don't Know. Um. Looking at the the Census bureau right? just pick some categories sometimes are not great through time it might change but we document those changes as a change through time. So Then we can change and and look at the other data. 14:47.53 archpodnet Um. 14:59.81 Shelby A Manney Or at least let's decide on the scale at which our observations are going to happen. Let's just start there and what what can what scale can we currently gather data on the surface subsurface and what are some techniques that we could better understand the subsurface without digging you know then we can attack these other types of problems. How. Starting with the question is fine. Um, but instead I think we should collect regardless of the question, the range the field so that if someone else were to have a question in the future or then that they can ask their questions and maybe even have the data come up with say in In. Um. Machine learning etc some some actual ah things that we wouldn't have thought of some some some similarities you know and that might might not have thought of and we can't do that because Data is usually collected for a particular purpose in mind and the rest of it. You know. 15:41.32 archpodnet Um. 15:51.55 archpodnet Yes. 15:57.79 Shelby A Manney Is not there. So I really believe that we have ah um, an epidemic of overfitting in archeology. 16:05.60 archpodnet Right? Yeah, it's I feel like you know I'm at this. Um this rving event and there's a lot of people lot of different people hear from different backgrounds and different jobs and things like that and we were all kind of sitting around a campfire last night listening to some music and there's a gentleman. Who we've gotten to know and he's originally from Scotland but he's been in this country for I don't know 2020 to 30 years or something like that and he actually said it which I think exemplifies the problem that we have in data collection and archeology. He said when I came here. First came to this country I thought I was coming to one country and as I traveled around I realized I was in 50 different countries not just from ah from a cultural and even a regulatory standpoint but like you know driving laws and people and culture and everything was just different and you know it gets even worse in archeology when you look you could have. You know crm firms in one region and even they may do things slightly differently you know and everybody that listens to this show regularly knows that I consulted and still consult for wildnote which is a data collection platform and one of the things that we have in there is a standardized output for primarily California. 16:55.22 Shelby A Manney And. 17:13.75 archpodnet Dpr forms which is their recording forms and the Nevada Imax forms and then a few other states around but those are kind of the big ones and we still have crm firms that want to use those forms and they say hey can we make changes to this form and we're like you mean the agency output form. No, you can't like this is this is what the agency is dictating and yet. Even though there's a standardization if you will of that data collection method. They still want to do it differently because they're used to just making changes on their own and the is not enforcing anything on top of that. So let me give you guys ah a chance to comment on that on the other side of the break because we're just about up on time on this segment I didn't mean to take it all the way to the end. But. 17:42.11 Shelby A Manney And yeah. 17:50.37 Shelby A Manney Alright. 17:50.40 archpodnet We'll come right back here in just a minute all right.