00:01.75 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 2 ah 2 of the architect podcast and we're talking about Paul's trip to Saudi Arabia for the last couple of months where he's been doing some work over there and all the tech that he got to use while he was there. So let's switch over to um, gnss you you mentioned you were using a a lika. 00:10.34 Paul Me. 00:19.86 archpodnet Um, Gnss Receiver on this project. Let's hear about that. 00:23.26 Paul Yeah, so I don't have a whole lot to report on that any of us who've used gnss receivers now with the corrections that you know there's differences in interface. There's certain differences and capabilities. But but the lyca system we used was pretty good for us. Um I had 2 different. 00:39.26 archpodnet Um. 00:40.67 Paul Projects I worked on that were in the same abandoned. Um well started hundreds of years ago abandoned in the 1980 s village and we laid down a few control points at 1 end of the village and then later for a separate project. We laid down some more control points using that gnss. And everything matched up which was really nice so that was using likas own satellites which serve you know in geosynchronous orbit around the or synchronous stationary I can't remember now. Um, they're in orbit. 01:01.67 archpodnet Nice, nice. 01:12.60 archpodnet I Think it's geosynchronous. Yeah yeah. 01:17.13 Paul Around the ah around the the the equator so it's reliant to a certain extent on having a clear view to the south which is problematic sometimes in um, in Saudi because it's so mountainous and lots of cliffs and things that will get in the way. 01:28.56 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. 01:34.21 Paul Ah, but fortunately it didn't and we had these 2 different sets of of surveying control points that we then based off our other points off of and everything lined up really nicely between them and so that that was just nice to see I like that. Yeah, this kind of high precision. Ah. Gnss is with the corrections is is ubiquitous now you know there's so many different products that you can get that'll do the same thing they all work very similarly and it's you know a great general purpose tool now. 01:52.72 archpodnet Ah. 01:57.25 archpodnet Church. 02:08.56 Paul The reason why I'm leading off with that is that you know me I'm I'm a total total station nerd. Um, and what we matched up based off of those initial control points were points that we shot with total stations. So I was I was really in my element there. 02:23.55 archpodnet There you go there, you go so you were so what kind of I mean again, we don't want to get into the specifics of the project but just from a technical standpoint I Just kind of assumed you were doing survey and stuff out there where you guys doing excavations because you about and what total station would imply. Yes. 02:38.35 Paul Yeah, so I was initially brought out to do to do landscape surveying survey right? Pedestrian survey vehicle travel survey, whatever but there are a bunch of ongoing projects. So I was doing some excavation I was monitoring. 02:45.31 archpodnet Okay, um. 02:55.60 archpodnet Ah. 02:57.69 Paul Burial excavations. Um I was we were you know that that village that we're talking about. We were monitoring the clearance of those of the the buildings themselves and some of the um, you know so that they could be consolidated and reconstructed for tourism. Basically. 03:15.60 archpodnet Sure. 03:17.35 Paul Ah, so the total stations you know what they have and what I've been saying we're not going to get rid of them anytime soon because what they have versus the gens or receivers is that they work when you don't have a clear view of the sky. Yes, you do have problems of you know visibility you've got to be able to see that prism if you're going to shoot it. But. 03:28.43 archpodnet Right? Of course. 03:37.29 Paul But we would lay our control points with the Gnss receivers then set up our total stations and lay all our Sub- atoms from those and it work great. Um, and I think that that's for the foreseeable future That's going to be what everybody's doing and that is what everybody's doing I'm not breaking a new ground here but neither. 03:37.69 archpodnet Ah. 03:44.69 archpodnet Yeah. 03:55.29 Paul Yeah, in concert the total stations and Gnss receivers make such a good package but you can't get rid of one or the other and still expect anything nearly the same quality I mean it's really that the sum is the sum is more than the whole is more than some of its parts. 04:01.57 archpodnet Yeah. 04:07.89 archpodnet Red. 04:14.49 archpodnet Ah, yeah I mean the the total stations only as good as the point it sitting in space right? if that points garbage then it doesn't matter what else you recorded? yeah. 04:16.64 Paul Ah. 04:20.48 Paul Exactly right? and so with the um with that um that that village one of the things we had to do was a lot actually also with the burials I was talking about. We had to do photogrammetry and we wanted the photogrammet tree all to be very. 04:35.35 archpodnet Ah. 04:38.49 archpodnet Okay. 04:38.55 Paul Tightly spatially referenced to the world and so that's you know, having that combination really helped um other thing that was interesting. We were using a much older Lica ah total station and a few things like it had ah a laser plummet. 04:49.43 archpodnet Ah, ah, nice. 04:54.36 Paul Which I always thought was kind of cool I've never actually used one before I've openly ever used optical plummets. Um, if you're setting up indoors great If you're setting up in the bright Saudi sun. Forget it, You can't see that point at all you may or may not be over the the control point. Yeah yeah. 04:57.56 archpodnet All the other fun. 05:06.40 archpodnet Ah, dots and work. Ah. 05:12.49 Paul You know I'll huddle around the Tripod and try to like you get your hand right underneath the Tripod where you can see the dot in the palm of your hand and try to like slowly bring it all the way down to the ground to see if ah, you could get to the point. Um the ah. 05:21.48 archpodnet Right. 05:28.58 Paul This was one of the this was actually a little triumph of mine was that it records the data saves it locally but there was no way of exporting the data. Um what I found out was that this older total station has formatting files and you can upload a formatting file. 05:34.93 archpodnet Are. 05:45.94 Paul That then you translate your data through on Export you say export. You know this job run it through this formatting file and you get it out in whatever format. You know you tell it to do So I found some formatting Files online and I tried to you know hack them and I ended up erasing some jobs. 05:46.63 archpodnet Ah. 05:55.24 archpodnet Um, no okay. 06:05.48 Paul Fortunately old jobs didn't matter without actually successfully getting the data in the end I found the name of the program and it's a program that's been abandoned for like 15 years um that like I had once put out it barely ran on windows just barely. 06:15.66 archpodnet Cheese. 06:23.95 Paul And most of what I tried to do with it would crash. But fortunately the part of this program that generated those formatting files still ran so I got a formatting file output that I could then export all my data as a Csv and then import into my. 06:35.80 archpodnet Nice. 06:39.11 Paul Into Yeah Gis imported into um into Meta shape for ah for our control points for photogrammetry you know and so that that was a little triumph and that was just me being my tenacious self when it comes to you know, getting data off of equipment. 06:45.48 archpodnet Ah. 06:55.40 Paul By any means necessary and yeah and that worked so you know again using the the Gnsr receivers to get our our really tightly controlled control points and then working off of that with the total station. 06:56.90 archpodnet Brett. 07:10.20 Paul Was really good and then I Also you know because I got to play with the total station a lot I Yeah I trained a couple of my coworkers on how to use that one and we came up with a plan for how to lay the hundreds of points that we'd need for the photogrammetry inside that village and ah and it worked really well and it was It was a lot of fun. It was you know I got to put on my. 07:17.90 archpodnet Um. 07:23.91 archpodnet My ah. 07:28.47 Paul Educator hat with that. Um, you know and they were great guys and really smart, really talented but they didn't know that particular total station and well I didn't either. But at least I knew enough that I could yeah wing it. 07:29.25 archpodnet Nice. 07:38.43 archpodnet Yeah I think it's I think it's incredibly important anytime you have a total station on site because I mean to be honest, you just don't see them very often right? And anytime you do have 1 on site if somebody hopefully somebody knows how to run it I think I've told this story before but. 07:49.13 Paul Me. 07:55.80 Paul Yeah. 07:56.81 archpodnet Hopefully somebody knows how to run it. But if you do don't just don't just hog the total station right? It's fun Once you get doing it I mean it can be tedious a little bit if you're doing it like all day every day for weeks and weeks at a time but bring other people in and teach them and spread that knowledge out I'm really glad you did that. So yeah, because because people end up. 08:09.73 Paul Yeah, yeah. 08:15.13 archpodnet End up having 1 on site and like nobody knows how to use it and that's what happened to me ah shoot probably back in like 2009 I think it was it was right before I went to grad school and there was a total station on site literally nobody there knew how to use it and come to find out. We were like two weeks into a full scale block excavation and hadn't taken any points. 08:26.70 Paul With. 08:34.73 archpodnet Come to find out the project manager didn't know how to set up the total station like she had no idea the field director I Guess she had no idea how to do it So I was like can I just take this home for the weekend and I youtubed and looked up manuals and because I'd used it to total station before this is aika actually and I'd used a top con before I'd never used aika. So I know I understood the basic principles of it but I still had. 08:36.10 Paul Are you. 08:48.95 Paul Um, again, listen. 08:54.16 archpodnet Like no idea and by the end of the weekend I had mapped my parents like backyard in their deck and everything because that's where we were staying I figured it out and then I became like the total station person for like the next month that we were there. So um, yeah, but it's it's always nice to spread that knowledge out a little bit of any technology. Really. 09:10.71 Paul Really? yeah yeah, and the total station and you you hint to right? There is that the principles are exactly the same geometry does not change between that liika and that topcon the sokiass trigonometry is exactly the same that the Nikon's trigonometry is you know. 09:12.32 archpodnet You know it's It's better More people know it than less. So. 09:19.90 archpodnet Um, yeah, right. 09:30.38 Paul Ah, how they label things how they name things What menus you have to go through. That's what changes from one to another and if you teach somebody the principles that are going to apply to any total station regardless of brand. 09:35.41 archpodnet Sure. 09:41.20 archpodnet Um, yeah. 09:44.98 Paul Then it just becomes a matter of figuring out how to negotiate the ah the interface on that particular total station that you have on site. Um, and so that's really what I like to focus on I mean back in Lagosh there was um, there was a young man that was from the village that um, that. 09:47.66 archpodnet Here. 10:01.12 Paul Did some work for us around the house but he also he wanted to become an engineer and so he saw me with the total stage. He said you're going to teach me how to use the total station. So I every day would spend a couple hours with him showing him how to set it up and and you know take points. And he kept on saying oh but I want to learn the software I was like hey it doesn't matter the the program is going to be different on whatever they have on thing. But if you understand these these principles and you can set it up quickly and efficiently and consistently. Um. 10:19.99 archpodnet Sure. 10:31.64 Paul You'll be fine. You'll learn the the software that they have on that project that you're working on so he took that took that seriously and then a few weeks after I left Iraq last last winter he he sent me a text saying hey. And it was a picture of himself wearing a white hard hat because he landed that engineering job that he wanted and I was so so proud for that. But but you know okay so a little bit of brag here. But but mostly it's it's about the the importance of teaching people this stuff. You know you became the total station guy and I don't mind being the total station guy in a project. But. 10:51.29 archpodnet Ah, it's. 11:02.11 archpodnet Um, yeah, right? Oh yeah. 11:04.46 Paul Having 1 person that gets tied up with that one piece of equipment if you have a sick day if um, if for whatever reason you leave the site early. Ah, everybody else is in trouble you you know it really helps every project to spread that knowledge around as widely as possible and then it. 11:14.71 archpodnet Oh. 11:22.78 Paul Totally demystifies it. The only mysterious bit is how do I get through the sokia's operating system because it's really kind of weird you know and it's based off of decisions that were made you know thirty years ago and haven't changed even though the the hardware platforms could could take the changes. 11:30.38 archpodnet Yeah. 11:38.82 archpodnet Yeah, it always goes back to 1 thing I've really taken from my time in the navy because you're you're always you know, looking at your next rank and your your next advancement right? and and they don't say don't do that you know focus on that because it makes you just a better. you know whatever you do it makes you better at that job by by focusing on the next thing up because it's usually more advanced and there's more you have to learn but the common concept was train your replacement. Whatever you're doing wherever you're at train your replacement and by training your replacement you not only allow well the navy in this case. 12:03.44 Paul Me. 12:12.70 archpodnet The ability to promote you because somebody's going to slide into your spot. But then you're also learning more about what you want to know by training somebody else you know and it's just ah, it's just a good thing and I've I've kind of done that with everything I've tried to do is train your replacement you know and and don't. 12:14.58 Paul Yeah. Is this. 12:28.51 archpodnet Don't have a big ego over it thinking I'm the only one that should know how to do this. You know what? I mean there's always plenty of stuff to do so. 12:31.91 Paul No, and you know it's an old edage. But you know if you really want to learn something you teach it and and that definitely applies for this and then if you just make that your challenge I'm going to learn this well enough to teach it and you start to teach it then you find out that you learn more about it and. 12:37.20 archpodnet Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 12:50.95 Paul As you're teaching it. You know, invariably somebody's going to say how come we didn't do it this way or what? why's that. Ah and it might be because it was a blind spot and you just didn't think of it or there might be some very valid reason why you didn't do it this way and then you can use that to further enhance their understanding of it. You know. 13:06.21 archpodnet Right? Yeah, indeed exactly all right? Well before we go to our next break. Let's talk about laser scanners. You've got that down here and you've got actually a number of like really advanced. 13:09.56 Paul And so what? So it's It's always fun. 13:22.15 archpodnet Getting techniques down here for this one project. It sounds like it's pretty impressive. The amount of gear they took out there to do this but let's talk about the laser scanners before we talk about the other stuff. 13:30.47 Paul Right? So the laser scanners This is something that I've you know I've seen and heard about for a long time and never got the chance to play with and I was very lucky that on this ah on this village documentation project that was one of the deliverables. It was promised was laser scans of the buildings. So. 13:36.62 archpodnet Yeah, um, either. 13:47.27 Paul After they had been cleared out. We went back through the the laser scanner that we had was this handheld thing. Um, you know so you've seen laser scanners sometimes mounted on a tripod a static thing. These ones were a handheld one that you could walk around and do the insides of rooms and do multiple rooms and they'd connect them all together. 13:56.70 archpodnet Right? That's cool. Nice. 14:04.87 Paul I didn't get the chance to play with the data processing. So I can't comment on that I hope that I do get to but before too long, but the data collection there was you know it was. It's not unlike using the the total station or the Gnss Receiver and that. 14:11.41 archpodnet Yeah. 14:20.70 Paul It's mostly you know what buttons you press at what time. What's the order of doing things. What's what are the best practices and then you go and ah so the one that we used was a geoslam zeb horizon. Um, and it says Zeb right on the side which I thought was terribly unfortunate because that's mighty close to the arabic word for penis and I thought it was um, maybe not appropriate for me to be walking around holding my zeb in my hand. 14:41.98 archpodnet Ah, wow. 14:48.53 archpodnet Ah, nice. 14:49.83 Paul Ah, they'd use this for a number of years and apparently I was the first person to notice this. So maybe that says something more about me than about anybody else or about the company name. But anyhow it was great so we get it works for about 20 minutes at a run before it starts getting too hot and that was. 15:07.44 archpodnet Okay. 15:09.82 Paul For this particular one. It's a few years old. That's really the limiting factors the the heat that it generates while it's catching all these points and it seems Handheld looks kind of like one of those guns that you use for ah for packing tape. Um and a sling bag that's got a battery and data collector on it. 15:16.30 archpodnet Ah. 15:29.90 Paul And connected by a wire to the to that handheld bit that has this spinning laser beam shooter outer thing on the end of it. That's a technical term and you know and takes tens of thousands hundreds of thousands millions of points and then those get stitched back together into models. We did use again that. 15:37.16 archpodnet Yes. 15:48.30 Paul Those ah gss receivers a total station I think just a Jnss receiver to lay down some control points outside that we set up tripods over with a special kind of target In this case, it was a styrofoam ball. So after you'd done scanning the room for the rooms. We did. 15:57.82 archpodnet Okay. 16:05.70 Paul You know a dozen rooms or so in the 20 minutes um you head out to where you have those control points set up and you scan in those balls and then you know exactly where the other scans live in space because you've got 3 other points that are spatially referenced. 16:08.55 archpodnet Ah. 16:21.23 Paul To correct those initial 3 and so that was ah that was an interesting process and it was again fun because it was bringing in imaging techniques but also bringing in the surveying techniques that that you know are my lifeblood. 16:31.59 archpodnet Sure Absolutely all right? Well you did some? yeah go ahead just me oh my God she's. 16:38.40 Paul Yeah, it's not cheap though that that one that we had cost forty thousand plus dollars so yeah ah you know it may be a case of once you've spent that money you you look for any excuse to use that equipment but I do see it being extremely useful for. 16:50.80 archpodnet Yeah. 16:54.84 Paul Yeah, anybody that has to do things that are inside of places inside of buildings inside of caves in particular I think that something like this would be incredibly helpful for full documentation of the site. 17:04.80 archpodnet Yeah, I'm just looking on their website and some of the images they've got is you know, just like demo images look very very impressive. One of them is colored. It's like a building that has coloration to it I would imagine that has to be added in post though right? The thing is not actually. 17:18.90 Paul Um, yep. 17:22.64 archpodnet Recording that information. It's just distance and plotting a point map I would assume right. 17:26.78 Paul Well I've got some news for you. There's a digital camera connected to the front of this. Ah, this scanner thing that's taking a video the entire time and somehow that gets merged into the into the final product again because I didn't do any of the the processing I don't know how that's done. 17:29.10 archpodnet Really. Oh my god. 17:40.67 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, choose. 17:44.19 Paul And I really hope to learn that. But um, but yeah it it brings in colors in some manner. It might just be coloring the individual points of the point Cloud or it might be using it to stitch together a texture map I Honestly don't know but you know it's. 17:55.74 archpodnet 12 17:58.62 Paul It's it's a tool. It's a tool that is going to be seen increasing use I'm sure over the next few years 18:02.83 archpodnet Awesome! Well, that's pretty awesome. All right? Well let's take our final break and come back and and wrap up this tech discussion on the other side back in a minute.