00:00.00 archpodnet Okay, welcome to the air tech podcast everyone Paul how's it going. 00:05.35 Paul It's going all right? Um, since I spoke to you last I was off at the icaa conference in Copenhagen and we had a ah full day workshop on the yeah, the work that we were all doing lagosh so I presented there my colleagues presented there. We had comments and questions and such from. Ah. 00:10.62 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 00:23.70 Paul People sitting in the room. It was really interesting I mean the the whole conference was you know was a very good conference I enjoyed it quite a bit but up but that day was kind of coming out party for for our excavation how you doing Chris where are you now. 00:35.79 archpodnet Nice, ah technically well technically actually I'm in Ocean Island beach North Carolina right now we're just kind of on a ah little somewhat vacation with my wife's family. They come out to the beach every year they're from Charlotte so we we. 00:48.90 Paul 1 00:50.47 archpodnet Flew out and and decided to come out here with him for the week so it's been ah, it's been a nice despite the fact that half the time out here. It's been cloudy and raining but aside from that there's a swimming pool here a heated pool behind the house. So when we couldn't go hang out at the ocean which is just across the street. We just went hung out with the pool. So it's been. It's been good either way. 00:59.86 Paul Oh ah. 01:08.50 Paul The shots are off. 01:10.15 archpodnet But yeah I know I know so speaking of rough our guest today had a long travel day yesterday because he's doing some fun things up in Alaska but we may get to that near the end of the show but we are going to talk instead. Sorry we're going to talk first. To Paul Martin of Martin Archaeology consulting and we're going to talk to him about what he's doing with dogs and and other things. So Paul welcome to the show. Yeah so what do you tell us a little bit of what what? just what Martin Archeology consulting is. 01:36.29 Paul Martin Thank you for having me. 01:46.76 Paul Martin Martin Archeology consulting ah where a small consulting firm that works with um other other firms other agencies and so forth to provide. Archeological human remains detects and dogs and geophysical surveys sometimes we do archaeological excavations and that type work but primarily we focus on surveys and the use of dogs. To um, help locate unmarked burials of historic and pre-contact context. 02:33.18 archpodnet Nice and that's actually how we got to get in contact with you because episode one eighty nine of this podcast which is linked in the show notes called utilizing specialized dogs to find historic burials had nothing to do with Paul? Well you weren't on the show. It had everything to do with you but it was we interviewed somebody else. And it was a project down in Louisiana where you were called in to help find some historic burials and um, that was that was pretty cool so we wanted to get you on to to kind of talk about you know the actual technical I guess details of that. But. 03:09.69 archpodnet Yeah, I'm just wondering how you got into I mean we read your bio and you've got a you know? Master's in anthropology and a concentration in forensic anthropology and ah you know interest in geophysics. How did you get into using dogs for archeology. 03:24.75 Paul Martin Um, actually it was the dogs that introduced me to the world of anthropology and archeology. Um ah fell into this world through a cold case with. 03:42.65 Paul Martin The sheriff's department there in Mississippi where um, an investigation took us out to a um indian mount where we had an informant saying that a missing person. Had been buried out there two or three years prior and we did um a search didn't see any disturbance or anything of that nature that would indicate a burial of that age. 04:01.90 Paul Oh. 04:18.36 Paul Martin Um, but did get some behavior change and it got me questioning the the capabilities of the dogs and I'd also heard about a couple of other handlers beginning to do this work in. Ah. 04:37.79 Paul You. 04:38.26 Paul Martin California because this is and 2002 um where when this search came about for the sheriff's department and so this was twenty years ago and um, um. 04:51.83 archpodnet Yes. 04:57.90 Paul Martin With that I went to um, local archaeological Park. We. We had just north of my hometown started talking to archaeologists got permission come out work. The dogs um had praying final responses from my dog. Indicating the potential of human decomposition odor being present and from there. Um, asked if I could bring in other handlers other dogs make sure I wasn't doing anything to influence my dog. Um. 05:21.35 archpodnet O. 05:35.72 Paul Martin To give those responses um got additional responses from these other dogs and took all this information to the archeologist over the park and he looked at me and it's like Wow How is this even possible. 05:36.86 Paul M. 05:37.16 archpodnet Oh. 05:54.85 Paul Martin And so I don't know I'm a dumb dog handler. Um, ah I I had no clue and so we started looking at the archeological record. Um, and that took us back to. Ah Dr. Jeffrey Brain's dissertation where he'd excavated the the site and it took us from there to some of the excavations that um. 06:29.85 Paul Martin Jeffery Moore um had had done um cb morere sorry ah Clarence Bloomfield moreore had had done and the early twentieth century. Ah, indicating that he'd found burials along with what? um Dr. Jeffrey Brain had found and these are correlating back to where the dogs were giving responses and again the archeologist at the park site. How is this even possible because. 07:03.80 Paul The. 07:05.76 Paul Martin What's all the soft tissue is gone bone is bone. Okay and that that's you know this can't be possible. So I started digging around and trying to get a. 07:09.98 archpodnet Oh. 07:22.93 Paul Martin Better understanding of what was going on and from there. Um I ran across the work that was being done at the University Of Tennessee at their decomposition facility. Um and started reaching out to a couple of. Researchers working on human decomposition odor. Um, and in the middle of the night I ah railed off sent off an email and 1 of those researchers actually replied back to me. 07:48.70 Paul Ah. 08:01.40 Paul Martin He's like yeah, it's quite possible for the dogs to indicate on these remains that are not only hundreds of years old but could be you know, five hundred six hundred a thousand years old 08:18.32 Paul Wow. 08:18.50 archpodnet Wow. 08:20.29 Paul Martin Um, so with that um then we started questioning you know is it a you know is it. The environment is it about the quality of training. You know how does all of this begin to work. 08:38.43 Paul E. 08:40.80 Paul Martin And so with that um the archeologist John Sullivan that I I was working with from the park. Um began the 2 of us began. Questioning more and more and they took me to other sites with my dog and then from there we started hosting ah an invitational and brought in dogs from across the country in over a five-year period of time. We brought in about 40 handlers and 40 different dogs from across the country. Um and worked ah multiple sites and kind of got a better understanding. 09:21.40 Paul Wow. 09:36.69 Paul Martin Well when was best time a day to work the dogs and we found that there's early morning hours you know early evening hours tend to be the best time out of the heat of the day. Um. 09:40.43 Paul Who. 09:46.50 archpodnet No. 09:53.55 Paul So. 09:56.59 Paul Martin From there. Um, we started noticing that if we took the opportunity to work the dog on older or and draw. Human bone and known graves It was as much about instilling confidence on in the handler about their dog's ability as it was about reinforcing that. 10:18.79 Paul Move. 10:19.57 archpodnet Oh. 10:35.62 Paul Martin The dog itself. Um and then from there. Um, we were able to begin tracking these metrics and um. 10:36.90 archpodnet Yeah. 10:37.40 Paul M. 10:54.30 Paul Martin So from there. Um, we found that it's not you know, advisable to work immediately after a rainstorm. Okay, we needed to work. Um. 11:13.34 Paul Martin Like the next day sometimes depending on how much rain and might be two days later so that as the ground begins to dry out. What's actually happening evaporation is beginning. 11:16.65 Paul Um. 11:32.70 Paul Martin To occur again and as that evaporation is occurring. We've got odor being able to come back up into the air column. 11:35.73 Paul Oh Well I'm um, I'm actually I'm fascinated that the approach to it Metrics. You know and and the comparison to geophysical tools. You know to Gpr Magnum Whatever um, using dogs as this this kind of wetware ah sensor is really interesting because you're you're approach it from a scientific point of view and I know people have done things like dowsing ah. That some archaeologists have have really you know Claimed as is incredibly valid and a lot of other people have shown is probably less so but that you set up initially to test your own relationship with the um with the dog with your dog. Versus other people's relationships with their dogs and then and built it out kind of in in a scientific methodology to try to ah to find out Well well you said metrics. Yeah, and so it's to try to find out what works What doesn't work. You know how much influence does the handler have and so on and and and this is to me a a really fascinating approach that you're. re coming at it from a ah from an inherently scientific methodological way with this thing that you know has its own brain and has its own learning has zone affections and interaction with you. Um, so so which you know the Gpr sled doesn't. 12:57.68 archpodnet No. 13:02.97 Paul Martin Yeah, right? Um, and and that's one of the I think one of the the the critical things and um, one of things that um. 13:19.19 Paul Martin Zach Overfield that I worked with there in Louisiana on that project. He found fascinating. What's that um because ah I'm able to approach this with one foot firmly in that. Canine handler and canine world and then the other foot firmly in the geophys and the anthropology archeology world um is a little bit different approach than. 13:38.10 Paul E. 13:40.40 archpodnet He. 13:48.68 archpodnet You. 13:57.71 Paul Martin Ah, thin has been taken a lot of times. Um, and that's because I came you know I had 5 years experience behind me as a handler before I was ever introduced. 14:00.49 archpodnet He. 14:12.36 Paul So. 14:16.95 Paul Martin To any of this and then from there. Um I had once I ah started down this pathway. Ah John Sullivan had been. Exposing me more and more to the world of archeology through readings taking me to different sites I began volunteering. Ah I got exposure to different field schools. Ah, to University Of Mississippi filled schools with ah Dr. Jay Johnson I was introduced to the world of geophysics through Brian Haley um and you know seeing how. Those components could really begin working together and from there. It was just a matter of time that um, in 14009 2010 when the opportunity presented for um, me to be able to go back to school I returned to school and completed my undergrad in anthropology there at Western Carolina ah there I was able to. 15:42.69 Paul And. 15:43.35 archpodnet Ah. 15:50.77 Paul Martin Focus strictly on in on that. Um forensic anthropology bow art aspect. Um, ah really hone in on the decomposition. 16:09.61 archpodnet For and. 16:09.92 Paul Martin And what's kind of going on there. Um, and so forth and began working also with ah ah you know with forensic anthropologist Dr. Cheryl Johnston 16:12.69 Paul Um. 16:28.97 Paul Martin Um, who gave me a lot of leeway because I was an older student I did have a lot of experience in life. Um, and so forth. So. 16:39.19 Paul Um. 16:42.10 archpodnet Well Paul that sounds like a good opportunity to take a break here because this being the archeotech podcast. Ah the other Paul and I have a lot of technical questions related to using canines for archeological purposes. So. Let's take a break and continue this discussion on the other side back in a minute.