00:01.20 Paul Hi welcome back to the architect podcast episode 203 wow that's a lot talking with Paul Martin about using dogs for forensic archeology and you know we're talking a lot about the dogs. You know I was saying it's kind of analogous to the ah to the gpr sled that you're using. 00:04.89 archpodnet I Know right. 00:20.99 Paul I have a um a daxen you know and they are their hounds. They've got a great big nose and so a few years ago I was out on the the lake behind our house. We was frozen as the middle of winter and ah coyote or Fox had gone across some days prior. Um, you know I could tell by the by how melted the the tracks were in the ice and the dog just picked up the scent of that and and followed it on you know across the the entire lake and into the woods and I was really impressed that you know after a couple days. 00:54.45 Paul You know this dog had found this track the scent of this animal that had walked past there and but you were talking before about finding pre-contact burials which is really much longer than two days ago so I was wondering. Do you have a general sense of like what kind of. Dog breeds our best for this work and I guess that would probably be a combination of you know their ability to smell but also their ability to do the work with you. 01:21.71 Paul Martin Um, so mob the the breed that I personally work with is a lab I personally like working with Labrador Retrievers um 01:28.32 Paul Um. 01:37.19 Paul Martin Nice size dog. They can cover the area but they travel well um, they train easy. Um, the maintenance training is very easy in general What we're looking for for this type work. 01:47.25 Paul Listen. 01:56.34 Paul Martin Is ah a medium to um, large size dog when I say medium. Um, that could be a dog twenty five thirty pounds all the way up to you know a dog. 02:01.27 archpodnet Yeah. 02:14.81 Paul Martin Seventy five eighty pounds um we want a dog that is able to really cover the train that you're asked to to work in um, but um, and at the same point in time. Um, not so large or so gregarious that um in if the environmental conditions or such or if it's um, extremely hot or. 02:52.95 Paul M. 02:53.43 archpodnet Ah, there. 02:53.53 Paul Martin You know we've got to be cautious anyway, but you don't want the dog to be overly large that you're having to you know worry, it's you know, excessively about you know. Are we trying to cover too much area. Um, in general we're trying to cover between a half acre to an acre you know in an hour depending on the amount of vegetation. Um, and also depending on. 03:21.40 archpodnet Yeah. 03:27.90 Paul Um. 03:30.81 Paul Martin Are are we searching for you know historic burials or are we doing work for pre-contact stuff. 03:40.19 Paul Oh. 03:42.32 archpodnet You know I'm just wondering so you you prefer labs and but if you get a dog that's within that you know within that rate weight range so they have the stanima stamina but they're not too big and just side note I mentioned um out here North Carolina with my wife's family. There are three great danes in this family 3 of her siblings have great danes and they are gigantic I'm a big guy and these great danes could easily like push me over at least one of them could. But anyway. So if you have a dog that fits within that range. 04:04.93 Paul Ah. 04:14.42 archpodnet And you know maybe as a short hair not going to overheat in the you know in the in the hotter temperatures can it really be any dog that can be trained to do this or are some just way better at it. 04:27.00 Paul Martin I Think some are are better out. Ah you've got to look at what was the the dog originally bred for you know, Obviously your your greyhounds are not going to be. 04:34.70 Paul M. 04:34.73 archpodnet No. Sure. 04:43.89 Paul Martin Suitable for yes because they're they're a site hound. Um, they might know it's faster than any other dog. But um, the the nose is not as well defined as. 04:44.99 archpodnet Sure. 04:45.30 Paul Why they won't do it faster than any other dog. 04:58.97 archpodnet Sure. 04:59.40 Paul M. 05:03.26 Paul Martin Some of the other breeds. Um I personally try to work my dog in and um I like that um that medium range you know. 05:21.90 archpodnet Oh. 05:21.45 Paul Martin 65 £70 okay 75 and the largest because I also have traveled internationally with my dogs. Ah and they fly. They don't fly in cargo. They actually fly. 05:22.25 Paul Oh. 05:32.32 archpodnet No. 05:34.15 Paul Um. 05:41.43 Paul Martin Um, in cabin with me and because I've done work searching for M I And so um, doing that work through history flight. Um. 05:45.36 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:59.40 Paul Martin I Want a dog that is you know going fit under an airplanes eat. Yeah, um so ah, you know and I take the approach ah of searching the area as um. 06:01.49 archpodnet Sure Yeah, it's and it fits in an overhead bin I get it? Yeah yeah. 06:19.10 Paul Martin A traditional transet type Grid Grid Pattern um versus just ah, ah, might start off with a ah loose. You know, undirected search you know see. 06:21.47 Paul Um. 06:37.50 Paul Martin If the dog picks up anything ah directly on their own. Um, and if not I then go into you know a more prescribed you know transect pattern and I'm tracking that with a um Gps. 06:39.41 Paul Um. 06:43.91 archpodnet Ah. 06:55.92 Paul Oh. 06:56.89 Paul Martin Collar so that I can then look at Okay, what kind of coverage Pattern Do I have one of the things that I have issues with right now is the the available. Um. 07:16.83 Paul Martin Accuracy for the Canon Gps receivers um but we're working on some things to enhance the the accuracy of the the receivers that we put on. The canines. 07:38.33 Paul So I going backs up just a little bit here. Um because we're talking a lot about dogs. Obviously you know my dog or mentioned has fear of all big dogs because he's tiny. Except for 1 dog they grew up with who lives down the street from us here and he's a lab a great big golden lab that was originally trained. We've got a yeah a scene a guide dog training facility a couple miles from where we live and he was originally there. Ah, but he failed out of school and so he became a pet and he's humongous. He's he's like a hundred pounds he's a great big very you know gentle giant. But um, you know that that's a particular kind of dog and he failed out of school. Ah and I'm wondering you know how do the. Dogs that you use for archeological perspective for lack of a better term for your forensic work. How do? How do they different than your typical pet like mine or another working dog. You know a dog. That's you know, tied to a specific person like these seeing eye dogs like. 08:39.10 archpodnet I have. 08:53.60 Paul Atticus down the street. Um, how are they different. 08:58.48 Paul Martin Um, typically these dogs have have been socialized to um, be able to work. Yeah in the you know they've been. 09:15.48 Paul Are they specifically trained to be forensic dogs. 09:18.40 Paul Martin Um, that they are specifically trained to be um, where well we're moving Away. So What I'm what we're trying to do. Move away from dogs that have been traditionally used to work for law enforcement and work on criminal casework and now are moving to wards working with dogs and dog handler teams that are. 09:42.97 Paul Um. 09:54.55 Paul Martin Specifically being trained to work for on archaeological investigations. Um, and um with that the dogs and the handlers are being trained um in a way. 09:57.87 Paul Wow. 10:14.83 Paul Martin 1 they need to understand how to operate out on an archaeological site. Um, they will have the socialization skills to be around multiple people. Um, and so forth. 10:21.73 Paul Um, isn't. 10:31.10 Paul Martin And for the most part ignore those people while they are working um from there. Um, they will be um, used to you know. Other things going on are around them if need be because sometimes even on like 1 of the smaller dogs that I've seen do this work is littlel Jack Russell so a larger Jack outside. Ah the Cincinnati area and with it. Um, you know that archeological site sits. Ah, in the middle of a construction project. So even though they've got excavations and things like that going on with them. They've also got you know, heavy equipment being operated. 11:45.64 Paul Martin Around them the project that we were working on there in Louisiana we had a train you know trestle right? there with a train that went Bob we had dump trucks running up and down and the dogs just ignored all of that. Um, dogs are are trained to ignore the other dogs um in the airports. Um, our dogs are trained to completely ignore another dog. Um, so that's what. 12:10.48 archpodnet Ah. 12:22.97 Paul Martin Ah, we are. That's one of the big differences between these dogs is they understand when they're in a work environment versus. Okay, now you're out in the the wild wild to go play. 12:41.88 archpodnet That's cool. 12:42.60 Paul Martin And you can go run with with your your friend and go swim in the lake or go play in the the stream. 12:51.70 archpodnet Ah I don't I don't know people that can do that you know usually they're just messing around at work too. So you know that's impressive. 12:55.27 Paul Martin Yeah, and the the dogs are much better workers than than some of the the people. 13:04.20 archpodnet Ah, indeed indeed all right? Well, we've got some follow ups for this I've got a specific one. Let's take a last break and we'll wrap this up on segment three back in a minute.