00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the archeitech podcast episode 2 oh 3 and we are wrapping up this discussion with Paul Martin on his use of dogs in basically forensic archeology Paul some of the things you said on the last segment got me thinking about. You know when you said running the dogs on a transect and how they're they're trained not to be distracted by other dogs. You know when a person is on a transect on like say a a wider transect like a thirty meter transet or something you know you're not looking fifteen meters either side of you. You're looking only a couple meters either side of you at best maybe 1 to 2 and then that's your sample size right. Um, with a dog. Do they weave around a transect. Do you keep them within a certain parameter like a person generally walks roughly in a straight line while they try to anyway and but does a dog like weave on a transect. Yeah, and ah, you know how how wide does their field of scent and then how do you keep them. Basically on that transect if they if they catch a scent. That's maybe maybe off of it. 01:00.95 Paul Martin Yes, we we try to you know, let them weave that that transect um and then in weaving that transect. Um, there's a variance of 2 to three meters 01:08.93 archpodnet Ah. 01:18.95 Paul Martin Each side from that center. Um, because we don't There's a lot about canine olfaction that we don't have fully narrowed down. 01:21.80 archpodnet Um. 01:32.45 archpodnet Sure. 01:32.89 Paul Me. 01:36.56 Paul Martin Same thing with ah human decomposition and human decomposition odor, especially this older odor. Um, and with that. 01:41.70 Paul For whom. 01:43.93 archpodnet Ah. 01:54.39 Paul Martin Um, we try to give I try to provide a variance of 2 to possibly four meters ah for the the canine to be able to. Um, possibly pick up that that odor. Um, but um, we do have you know sometimes where you know if we're we're downhill. Um, we've got. 02:18.26 archpodnet Ah. 02:18.80 Paul Um, food. 02:33.15 Paul Martin Runoff um dogs can possibly pick up odor from that runoff and then work it uphill, um, and pull up to it. Um, we we do see that. Um. 02:39.99 archpodnet Ah, okay. 02:52.71 Paul Martin We We see it in forensic cases. We see it and I've seen it in an archeological project. Um, and so forth. Um, so we do know that is occurring. Um, so. We don't have exact hard and fast parameters you know because there is you know the the variations that occur with you know the temperature during the day. 03:13.35 Paul And. 03:16.12 archpodnet Ah. 03:23.64 archpodnet Sure yeah. 03:28.24 Paul Oh. 03:30.63 Paul Martin Ah, humidity in the day even the Barometric pressure that varies throughout the day. Um, we try to keep those variables to see if you know ah there's something that's going on there. 03:32.53 archpodnet Okay. 03:32.70 Paul Oh. 03:48.63 Paul Martin Um, the other things on some sometimes um we depending on what the project is we might take the approach that we will run this area with 1 dog. Under at this time because we know we'll have one set of conditions where we'll run at that same area. You know 24 hours or 40 not 24 but 36 hours 04:26.29 archpodnet He. 04:27.75 Paul Martin Later where we have. 04:34.94 Paul Martin Um, 36 hours later will run it again because we know we'll have a completely different set of environmental conditions. 04:48.57 archpodnet Yeah. 04:52.42 Paul Martin And see if it's presenting differently to the adult. 04:57.60 Paul That's interesting to me because one of the things I just presented at the ah at that icona conference was about drone over flights that I do and the changing environmental conditions because we we I have some pre-programmed flights. So I can see subsurface architecture. That I just you know if I have a little bit time I'll you know, send the drone up and do its 20 minute flight over an area and what I'm starting to see are patterns of you know the amount of moisture that rained the day before two days before is the sun directly overhead or is it glancing. You know, whatnot to try to get a sense of when we're going to see these things so it's it's interesting to me in a very kind of like amorphous sort of sense that that you're doing the same thing with the dogs you know is it better shortly after a rainfall or a couple days after a rainfall you know, dates of high pressure or low pressure. 05:40.40 archpodnet Well. 05:52.32 Paul Sun up sundown. Whatever um again, that goes back to to this funny notion that I hadn't thought of before as the dogs as being these ah these data collection vehicles I mean it's not digital data which is what we primarily talk about Chris and I on this on this channel. But um. 06:06.81 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:10.42 Paul Martin Over the earth. 06:11.91 Paul You know it's it's It's very similar even though it's all again wetware you know it's all the dogs and you have to filter it through what the dogs do ah so you know the dogs do what dogs do and one of the things. The dogs do is they Dig. And I've I've had enough hounds I've I've seen the you know catch us and and decide to make a mess out of the yard is that a thing that you have to train out of your ah your work dogs or do they somehow know not to dig. 06:39.54 Paul Martin Correct yeah that that's correct where we're training the dogs to offer a a passive response such as a set or a down. Are a sometimes ah hold and stare. Um, but um, and sometimes you have a ah dog that might offer ah just a ah low investigatory swipe. That's completely different than a dog that's in the backyard digging to China um, now we don't want that type of response from the dog because again, um, we don't want to create. 07:28.22 archpodnet Right. 07:36.43 Paul Martin Um, this type of disturbance. Um, so. 07:38.50 Paul In. 07:41.60 archpodnet Okay, you know speaking of that. Ah, you know when you see people out there like metal detecting and stuff right? They they'll put pin flags around and then they'll go. They'll go check what? they've what they've flagged and see what's there. Um I Imagine you guys do a similar thing with the dogs. You know you mark where they're um, where they've alerted on and and then you come back and take a look at it What percentage of those would you say on the average is an actual an actual thing like the hit rate what you know how good are they doing basically. 08:11.57 Paul Martin Um, so one of the things that I try to do um is with every response. Um, we are marking those responses with. 08:27.33 Paul O. 08:27.67 Paul Martin Ah, sub major Gps are rtk gps um, and then coming back in and if possible depending on the terrain trying to go in and ah collect. Ah. 08:29.30 archpodnet Um, no. 08:46.88 Paul Martin Gpr over an area that could be a five Meter Square could be even a ten meter square over that area to give us an understanding of what's going on in there. We could have. 09:02.78 Paul M. 09:06.36 Paul Martin Multiple um, responses in the same area if we have that usually we've got multiple grades that will show up in there. Um, our our success and partnering that. Together has shown that we've got a response our success rate of between seventy five and eighty five percent of you know something actually being there that in the data. 09:32.88 Paul Wow. 09:43.77 Paul Martin At least appears to be um, a grave um and then from there um in ground troising um the. 09:48.28 archpodnet Huh. 10:01.10 Paul Martin That's up to each agency or and sometimes we have responses that come back that we do want a ground trace. Um, like I've got a project in um Nashville right now. Um. It's gone on for a year and a half we've got a row of burials that the dog initially identified here are your graves it shows up in the the gpr once we stripped off the surface. It literally shows up. Bam Bam Bam Bam ah you can see the outline of the the grave shafts. Um, and it's an enslaved cemetery right? there. So. 10:49.80 Paul Wow Wow! That's dramatic. 10:58.80 Paul Martin Yeah, so. 10:59.67 archpodnet Yeah, that really is you know we're running out of time here on this podcast. We could probably go on about this like we mentioned I think all that Kim or if we did on the recording or not but we definitely need a forensic archeology or anthropology podcast on the Apn. So if anybody listening to this you included Paul is interested. 11:18.40 Paul Martin Is a foot. 11:19.21 archpodnet Just get in touch with me and we can talk about it. Um, let's actually shift gears just a little bit because I want to bring this up because it's a tie in to episode 189 and again that link is in the show notes if you guys haven't heard it from the archetype podcast and we had the. Ah, lead archeologist on for this project and it was for a um spillway ah a bridge a railroad bridge over a spillway near Nocre Louisiana that needed to be replaced and there was an oral history somewhat of a tenuous or a history. Of a civil war era cemetery in the project area. So of course they wanted to make sure that wasn't actually there or or was there find it. So can you give us just a little you know brief synopsis over you know how you prepared for that project and what you guys ended up finding. 12:07.65 Paul Martin Yeah, um, with that project in their um background research. They they found that there was a potential civil War. Um. Color Troop um cemetery there in that area in um, with that We um brought in of 4 different. Ah. 12:26.19 archpodnet Um, okay. 12:43.68 Paul Martin Te on teens and then um, they they'd already ah identified 3 of the teens and then they brought me and to bring my dog along with the the geophys package. 13:00.63 archpodnet Um. 13:01.14 Paul Martin Ah, which was ground penetrating radar and gradiometry. Um, so the um with it. Um, we took the um project area. And set it up just ah as a a grid traditional grid and then work the dogs individually through that grid area mapping in any of the if we got any type of a response. 13:37.60 archpodnet M. 13:38.67 Paul Martin From the dogs from there. Um collected um, gradiometry out away from the trestle and then a ground penetrating radar directly under the trestle. 13:40.55 Paul Um, who. 13:54.85 archpodnet Okay. 13:57.57 Paul Martin Um, and with that um we had standing water and most ah are under the trestle and most of the um standing water. Um. 14:05.30 archpodnet Ah. 14:16.70 Paul Martin I did notice that um, the couple of responses we had ah from the dogs were associated in the the boundary of the the standing water. Um. 14:30.99 archpodnet Hunt and. 14:35.60 Paul Martin As we drained that standing water so I could do the ground penetrating radar survey underneath those trestles. It was filling up as fast as we were draining it. 14:37.80 Paul Who. 14:47.46 archpodnet Cheese. Wow. 14:49.52 Paul Nurse. 14:53.33 Paul Martin Um, and they were were literally having to redrain some of the um space units. Um, and you know for me as I was. 15:12.41 Paul Martin Doing it. Um, and so what that um, kind of highlighted to me was that the um odor. That the dogs were responding to wasn't directly there but was coming in from outside the area. Also when I looked at all of the geophys that I collected in the area. There was nothing. 15:38.57 archpodnet Ah. 15:39.35 Paul Who. 15:47.94 Paul Martin That stood out that appeared to be a ah grave feature. Um, the dogs are at least I can't speak to the training of the other dogs but like for for my dog She is specifically trained to work. 15:50.79 archpodnet Okay. 16:00.87 archpodnet Um. 16:07.82 Paul Martin Ah, nothing. But um, seventy five years and older. Um ah, all all she works is old dry bone and. 16:11.63 archpodnet Okay. 16:13.50 Paul Oh my goodness you can train them that specifically huh. 16:26.50 Paul Martin Great historic and um, pre-contact type. Um ah and so um, she never works any. 16:31.18 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 16:31.37 Paul Wow. 16:45.63 Paul Martin Type of active decomposition or or self tissue decomposition. Um, and so with that um it. 16:45.94 archpodnet Okay. 16:52.10 Paul Ah, m. 17:06.40 Paul Martin She's very specific to searching out those type those older remains and older grades. So and that's what we're. 17:15.80 archpodnet Yeah. 17:22.57 Paul Martin Those in the industry of this this fledgling little industry. Um that we're niche that we're carving out for archaeological human remains detection dogs are are focusing on is that. Um, the dogs need to be specifically trying to work just that um the handlers need to be used to working in those type of environments. Um this year at the Aa meeting. 17:42.40 archpodnet Yeah. 17:47.21 Paul M. 17:57.45 Paul Martin Um, we actually were able to have a symposium with seven eight different papers from across the country focused on the dogs and projects that they've worked in. 18:03.22 archpodnet Nice. 18:14.63 Paul Martin And it's not all my work. Um, and um, you know one of the researchers. Ah 1 of Soul scientists. Um, that's also a handler that's approaching the question of how's all this possible. You know is you know, thinking part of this might be related to recalcitrant fats that are still holding on into the soils you know years later. So. 18:46.50 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 18:47.24 Paul Um, yeah, which makes sense. 18:51.89 Paul Martin So. 18:55.52 Paul Yeah, so Paul? Um I think that we could pride talk about this for hours and hours at this point but we're going to wrap it up now and I just wanted to thank you for ah for really opening my eyes because yeah for me the the notion of using dogs. Makes sense on some place you know as ah as a dog lover and somebody who knows that dogs have this incredible nose and this incredible ability to be trained and this incredible ability to have bonds with their with their handlers and you've demonstrated for us I think as certainly for me. Ah, yeah, how how this can actually work in archeology. Um, in ways I wouldn't expect but also in ways that are really familiar to me because you're using them like you use Geophys. So ah, so so thanks for for you know, expose me to something brand new. Ah, and also you know. 19:44.32 archpodnet Um, move. 19:50.35 Paul I understand your your latest. What coworker is a chocolate lab named Abby so if it's appropriate. Give her some extra scratchties for us and tell her she's a good girl because I'm sure she is and thank you for coming on the podcast tonight. 20:08.19 Paul Martin Thank help for having me and I certainly will. 20:14.13 archpodnet All right? Well yes, thank you and I I just I know we're overtime but I got 1 more thing to ask you Paul you know, a lot of people a lot of people take like ah like an air tag or a tile and put that on their keys. 20:19.51 Paul Oh yeah. 20:26.90 archpodnet If they lose them. Do you just put like a like a really old chicken bone or something on your keys and have your dog find them for you when you lose them because that would be genius. Ah, you got to separate work and play all right? Well again. 20:33.68 Paul Martin No no. 20:36.40 Paul Ah. 20:41.29 archpodnet Thanks a lot and this has been great and I'd love to have you back on to talk about some of the interesting stuff you're working on. So thanks again. Paul. 20:48.66 Paul Martin Thank you.