00:00.00 archpodnet Go ahead. 00:00.00 Doug Welcome back to 2 2 32 episode of the cm podcast and I was just going to comment on something Heather mentioned at the end of the last segment which was talking a bit about mental health and how people are dealing well. Dealt with the last two years but um, it just raised the point that um in the u k so there's always been a really strong push for physical health and safety. Um and mental health is now starting to get wrapped up into that. Um, in that it's now being seen and. Regulations quite haven't got there yet, but they're trying to push bills through the parliament and so forth where they'd essentially put mental health first aid at the same level as like you know, physical first aid. Um, there might be some issues with that because mental health first aid is a very specific program that came out of Australia and whatnot. But um, technically under the laws and they're becoming I guess you could say they were becoming more enforced is mental health is at the same level as physical health. In the past that hasn't been quite enforced and there hasn't been um, the pressure from the health and safety executive. The Uk's equivalent of osha and whatnot. Um, but that's changing quite rapidly and um, a lot of employers are also looking at like. Mental Health of their staff and how how it's you know how to make it better how to make work. Um a lot better as it were how to deal with ah how to have fewer assholes as it were I believe Heather was describing them as um, but it was just to see. Have you guys also noticed. Um maybe at your work or in general out there a push to tackle the sort of mental health aspect of covid um, and the changes that you know it was tough on a lot of people still is tough on a lot of people for their mental health. Um, you know. 01:58.41 Heather Can what be both. 02:04.53 Doug Big changes. Ah not everyone enjoys working from home I Know Pre Covid We actually lost a member of staff because they couldn't They didn't want to work from home. They actually wanted to go into an office. Um and see people and this was it is before even Covid hit um and so you know. Not everyone enjoys working from home. So What have your what has your guys' experience been with this. 02:29.10 Heather Um, for so first of all, you said you lost a member of staff meeting. They went to another school. 02:36.20 Doug So no, ah so it was It was a company. Um so it was it was good. They basically they we had a conversation. Um and they said you know? um so we've I've been doing remote work at this organization for over a decade. So we we were doing remote work before. 02:39.54 Heather Oh okay. 02:55.17 Doug 4 was cool and so we we don't really have offices we we work from home. It's not a big company just a couple of people but 1 of our staff members. He was great, but um so I was line matching him and we had a conversation where he said you know he liked the work working for us, but he just. 03:00.68 Heather Okay. 03:13.68 Doug Wanted to like have have that experience of being able to go into and see um you know see other people and not work from his bedroom and that was fair enough so we we helped him I think he had like 2 interviews we helped him prep for like so. 03:15.40 Heather Um, yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. 03:30.69 Heather Oh nice. 03:32.14 Doug It was you know very mutual it worked out where we we weren't um for lack of a better word. You know like if I can tell you right now if anyone's listening be careful I've been to employers where you you mentioned you know you might be moving on in six months or something like that and like the tone switches and they instantly become. 03:47.93 Heather Yes, bright right. 03:51.14 Doug Assholes towards you um like how dare you leave us and you're like it's guys. It's archeology. You're not. It's not. It's not for life with a company moving around's good. Whatever but like so if anyone's listening. This is not typical. Our company's not typical. We we have a really good conversation. We said yo. 03:53.26 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, if. 03:55.65 Heather Yeah, yeah, yeah. 04:08.73 Doug Because we we offered like you know, maybe he could go into like a ah we work sort of thing if he wanted like that but he was really looking for like actually not just like leaving his house. But. 04:18.35 Heather Interaction with the team physical interaction with the team. Yeah, and. 04:20.43 Andrew Kinkella Right? right. 04:21.58 Doug Ah, yeah, and so that's what he was looking for So um, for for his health. We helped to move on to a different job with a different organization but he's not going to be the only one I know quite a few people. Um I have family members who've just. 04:31.31 Heather That's awesome. Yeah. 04:40.59 Doug Had absolutely horrible last two years um being locked. Okay, not locked in doors. But um, not being able to go out like they had been and it's it's really tough and. 04:41.61 Heather Yeah, yeah. 04:48.69 Heather Yeah, well if you look at the old adage of you know when when people retire and then they end up spending a lot of time with each other and it's not always the good thing like I mean a married couple and they're like oh like they're under each other's feet and I definitely think I mean I've experienced that. 05:03.86 archpodnet Here. 05:08.23 Heather I think my family is so sick and tired of having me here and me going shhhh you know and I'm in a meeting. You know they're just like it. We're all on top of each other and I have kids one in college and 1 in high school and so everybody's on top of each other and I think that is definitely people are sick. 05:21.35 archpodnet Um, leibni. 05:23.29 Andrew Kinkella Have. 05:27.65 Heather They're just sick of that and I think I Really it's something that puzzles me because you are looking at someone in a so on a screen. So why is it I'm definitely and I don't think it's just the pressures of more work and everything I Definitely think that people treat each other differently. 05:38.83 Andrew Kinkella Um. 05:47.57 Heather In in now that we're not in each other's presence and it's really bothersome to me and some people have handled this Well ah this covered thing Well as far as how they retreat each other. 05:53.99 Andrew Kinkella The death. 06:01.86 Heather And some have not some have gone. It's just like exacerbated their aholary or whatever you call it and it is yeah go ahead. Andrew. 06:06.70 Andrew Kinkella Right? I Oh I think I think some of it is kind of a bleed over from social media to where it's like you know. 06:14.19 Heather Yeah. 06:17.56 Andrew Kinkella I'm free to give you a thumbs down and sense my I don't have my real name on there I'm going to talk about how crappy your presentation was you know or whatever and um I think they feel more free because they've already had an experience with that world free to be a jerk. Yeah. 06:18.92 Heather Um, yeah. 06:25.76 Heather But. Yeah I it. It reminds me of what is that like in the call seeum where the ruler would go thumbs up or thumbs down.. That's what it but I just I you know as far as working remotely. We have been having Surveys for. 06:30.95 archpodnet Why. 06:36.93 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 06:37.88 archpodnet Um, oh yeah. 06:49.35 Heather For the company I work with or work for. We have had surveys ah that happen probably every couple months where they're sending it out and asking people. What do you want to do like are you going to want to hybred. Do you want to do full remote. Do you want to be in person 100% at the time and so. 06:58.98 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 07:02.43 Andrew Kinkella Right. 07:09.13 Heather Over the time it and also understanding that those things change and we have to you know there's some things that are completely out of the company's control. They have to lock it down sometimes just because that's what the government says. But um, there you know our company specifically has been really trying to make happen. What. 07:18.61 Andrew Kinkella Oh. 07:28.53 Heather That employee wants. Um, and so what they do is they look at it and they say okay here we have people these people want to go in every single day and these people are open to just doing highbred and these people don't want to go in it at all and so they're doing Um, they're doing staggered. 07:41.36 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 07:48.40 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 07:48.41 Heather Presence in the office and um, a schedule. So there's a schedule that you have to follow if you want to go in the office. Okay, let's look at to make sure we don't have too many people in the office and so there's an actual plan of when you're going to go in the office and that's. 07:53.76 Andrew Kinkella Right. 08:04.71 Heather You know, obviously for some people everybody would just like to be able have the freedom to go into the office when they want to go but right now we can't do that totally. Hopefully we can get back to that some soon. But anyway that's been one solution. Yeah. 08:09.32 Andrew Kinkella Yep in. 08:10.12 archpodnet Brett. 08:14.78 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, no I think that's great. You know again because these are real nuts and bolts things because everyone gives lip service to like oh mental health but it's like okay, what do you? What are your nuts and bolts things are you're gonna do um I did two things so I'm Goingnna brag about myself now I know this is brand new. This is. 08:24.60 Heather Um, yeah. 08:31.38 Heather That never happens. Yeah. 08:34.28 Andrew Kinkella Never happens. Um, but I I sat down at the beginning of the pandemic I'm like what can I do for my students like what can I you know do just to make them feel good because for young people this is awful. You know they don't get to interact so I did 2 things. The first thing I did was I made this sort of manifesto. 08:44.47 Heather Yeah, yeah. 08:44.54 archpodnet Yeah. 08:52.23 Andrew Kinkella That I send them out as my very first email to them and it basically says hey we're gonna learn a lot about archeology. But you know what we're gonna have fun remember fun I do we're gonna have fun and how are we gonna have fun where we're gonna have office hours online office hours where you know as we learn we're it's gonna be joyous. 09:00.60 archpodnet Um. 09:00.94 Heather This. 09:10.85 Andrew Kinkella And in the office hours. We can just talk about whatever and I made this big long list of you know stuff you could talk about no surfing riding bikes. Whatever a new book you read and actually one of my students read my manifesto on Tiktok and I heard I think it blew up I think it got like it's um. 09:23.96 Heather Ah, awesome. 09:28.71 Andrew Kinkella And then ah the other thing I did are the online office hours I had him at really weird times like I have one on Wednesdays from 11 p m to midnight and so it becomes this like cool thing right? It's like beyond school where people can just go to hang and bro out and we joke and laugh. 09:34.26 Heather Um, Wow but it's awesome. Yeah. 09:44.69 Heather Yep. 09:46.20 Andrew Kinkella And so it's a way to use Zoome to just like have everyone chill have everyone talk about whatever hey what's your you know the yeah the ah new show on Netflix that you've watched. and and I've found that that those late night office hours I think have really helped a lot of people myself included. 10:04.40 Heather That's cool. That's I like I like that we have staff um meetings like just the staff my staff specifically and we have It's a staff me we call team. Awesome you you know I know it's cringy. It's cringy, but ah. 10:05.40 archpodnet Ah. 10:15.88 Andrew Kinkella Right now. No you you cringe it out who cares, it's what people want. 10:21.99 Heather Ah, and we just we sit there and it's like if if you want to have a drink you can have a drink um and it's not the like you know people are doing Oh let's do the happy hat Company Happy hour where our staff We really like each other like we don't even it's not just like we love each other. 10:36.40 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 10:41.87 Heather We truly love each other and so we just sit and we do talk about work but um, a lot of times it can go on for like an hour and a half two hours it just people I don't know just venting or it's just a space. Be people can say whatever they want and that for me I actually you know. 10:50.60 Andrew Kinkella Right. Totally right. 11:01.38 Heather Like I come I'm older I come from a a I'm not very I just say that I don't like saying that Andrew that's not the thing I like saying but what I'm saying is I come from and also come from the midwest so maybe that's part of it. But. 11:05.18 Andrew Kinkella Yes, yes, grandpa please enlighten us. 11:14.29 Andrew Kinkella And ah. 11:21.13 Heather It is this. You know you have to have some separation between the people that are that you supervise and whatever and and I think it actually is probably akin to the same thing with ah professors and I think yes as long as you're professional I think knocking down that wall is. 11:24.55 Andrew Kinkella Um, you. 11:31.51 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 11:40.89 Heather Essential Especially right now when it comes to wellness and letting them letting everyone know that we're all people. Okay, yeah I'm your supervisor but we're all people we have all the same prop. You know we all have the same problems but we all have problems and we all have frustrations and it's okay. 11:42.21 Andrew Kinkella Absolutely. Um, yes. 12:00.27 Heather To communicate that and when you communicate it then others communicate it and it's not about having a bitch session. Although sometimes those are appropriate and necessary. But it's about being real, you know and not and and that's the 1 thing that you've always done amazingly well Andrew and why you're so popular is a. 12:05.94 Andrew Kinkella Um, right right? It is. 12:09.87 archpodnet Um, yeah. 12:19.16 Heather As a professor is that you remove that wall. But I think it's really important and I think in general people should be doing that in the workplace and there's there's a you know what we call code switching right? There's a time where we. 12:19.66 Andrew Kinkella And right. 12:30.11 Andrew Kinkella Um. 12:34.82 Heather Our professional and then there's a time where we need to sit back and allow each other to see each other to know each other to you know to have compassion if you don't have that you're not going to have compassion for each other. 12:40.41 Andrew Kinkella Um, right I Yes absolutely and at the end of the day I was telling my students is I'm like look we're all primates. We're social animals like you can't get away from it. You can say you're antisocial, but you're not. 12:51.54 Heather Yeah, yeah, that yeah. 12:56.16 archpodnet Yeah. 12:57.33 Andrew Kinkella You know? and so I know I like like you've said those meetings go for a really long. My office hours will roll and roll and roll and I don't mind I've been on it like 1 in the morning you know and and I'm like whatever I can tell that they need to just connect and be human beings. It's fine. 13:02.38 Heather My office I was all this wrong. Yeah I don't mind I've known at like 1 in the morning. 13:09.64 Heather That they just yeah and beat your? yeah yeah, that's what. 13:12.41 archpodnet Yeah, like. 13:13.80 Doug So ah, just a quick comment on that like yeah, just a slight disagreement Andrew some people really are introverted and the only thing I'd have to say is if anyone's doing like those mental health things is definitely don't make a mandatory. Um. 13:28.47 Andrew Kinkella Oh now. 13:31.48 Doug Because you know there there are some people who have absolutely loved working from home and not having to see another single human being for 2 years and if they could go for 20 years that would be their ideal situation. Um I think that's it's important to like you know, um. 13:32.48 Heather People how absolutely honor to work from home. Yeah see yeah 20 years yeah 13:38.79 Andrew Kinkella Of Course. Ah. 13:44.70 Heather Um, honest that if it's important to like your different. 13:51.11 Doug Different different paths for different people. But um, yeah, it was just ah, just with with those things with the different how people handle mental health differently? yeah. 13:53.71 archpodnet But but. 13:56.45 Andrew Kinkella Of course no that mandatory and I don't put people on the spot because I know that I mean there's there's a portion of myself. That's a that's kind of an introverted loner actually and and so I I feel for them. But but there's the other part that you know. 14:02.87 Heather Course myself that but that kind of English lower Actually no way I feel for that. But but yeah party they yeah and want to say that you're not truthfully. 14:08.81 archpodnet Um, Andrew yeah Andrew I just want to say that you're now truly a part of the podcast because Doug is disagreeing with you so you know that that is that is where you come in to play. Oh yeah, um. 14:16.52 Andrew Kinkella Nice, nice, good good I'm gonna need to make my Voodoo doll now. 14:16.82 Heather Yeah, because is free. Yeah s where you make wise people just want to get. 14:27.44 archpodnet Ah, hey so in the last few minutes of this podcast guys in segment one. We talked about some stuff where you know what are what are some good things some lasting effects that actually are going to come out of the pandemic I want to hear and I'll start. What is 1 thing you're happy to see gone. 14:35.20 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, yeah. 14:35.72 Heather Good things. The lasting effects that yeah I'm go have I want to hear and I'll start. What is 1 thing you're happy to see on that the pandemic something we're not reading for and and beating off. 14:43.59 Andrew Kinkella Um, oh. 14:44.13 archpodnet That is a result of the pandemic something. We're not doing anymore and and leading off of what Heather was saying a couple of minutes ago about compassion I think we've all started thinking about each other's health mental health when it comes to remote working but health when it comes to hey I'm sick. Maybe I shouldn't go hang out around other people even if it's not covid. 14:49.11 Heather Couple minutes ago. Dr Pat and I think we've all started thinking about these other these. How mental problems becomes. 15:02.54 archpodnet And thinking about other people I think that's 1 lasting thing that I hope stays from the pandemic that and that and that's something as far as what's gone is the lack of that concern. That's what I'm saying is good. So so let's go around the room. How about you? Ah Andrew. 15:07.91 Heather And and that's something as as far as what's gone is. 15:11.76 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, ah that one thing the good that's gone I do not Miss Handshaking at all and um, like shaking. 15:12.38 Heather Concern Yeah Amen Good So let's go up you much God I and say think yeah yeah, think. 15:20.29 archpodnet Yeah, um, either that I'll tell you what that. 15:24.57 Doug Ah, Andrew bad. Um, ah you were just killing me today in this episode like I so miss handshaking like a good solid handshake. Ah I've missed it. It's been years. Yeah. 15:29.46 Heather Like this? Yeah so yeah, or hugging right? Oh O Yeah can. 15:35.13 Andrew Kinkella It you and the dinosaur friends will die out and it'll be okay, it'll be a new world of no handshaking. Um. 15:36.89 archpodnet But's see Doug that's Doug. That's the problem that ah listen that that I want to take that I would take handshaking out of the. 15:48.61 Andrew Kinkella For a. 15:49.39 archpodnet Masculinity equation because men especially and and and even some women who feel like they have to just like try to crush every bone in your hand as a measure of who they are screw that you know? yeah. 15:49.68 Heather Masculinity Equ because men especially against women. 15:54.92 Andrew Kinkella Ah, what a pain? yes. 15:59.82 Heather I Like I personally am with doug on this when I do like handshakes and I like hugs I like hugs and I miss that? Yeah yes. 16:03.64 Doug Or yeah I would say a hug a good hug you know, but also like so I realize not everyone you know, different people have different things but like with good friends I I do miss like hugging good friends. Um and stuff like that and I realize. 16:03.69 archpodnet Ah. 16:04.25 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, no. 16:18.50 Heather Yes, yes. 16:19.87 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 16:23.80 Doug Obviously I would not hug someone I've just met because that's really awkward I know sometimes handshakes can be quite awkward people you you miss. But like yeah I know like physical contact with like friends and family I'm I'm I'm missing that. 16:26.50 Heather Are. 16:34.50 Heather Yeah, um, hear it all the way from Scotland I don't think that's possible. So yeah. 16:37.14 Andrew Kinkella Whatever Doug don't give me your diseases. Okay. I I do have 1 positive one. You know that that I I think has happened and it's and it's sort of ah the ability to actually do real work over zoome and real work remotely I've seen a lot of um, ah, people in in the archeology world other archeologists kind of working together. 16:46.19 archpodnet That's right, That's right. 17:03.31 Andrew Kinkella Ah, where we wouldn't have before and actually doing older collections and stuff because we had to stay in so that was actually a positive. 17:06.40 Heather Yeah, yeah, yeah, and for and for me, um you know there's this been this thing against having and I understand why having archeologists from other regions work in a region. They don't have any experience in and. 17:08.48 archpodnet So yeah. 17:25.30 Heather Just out of necessity. We've been flying people in from all over the country to work on projects larger projects in California and Arizona and and I actually think that that stigma is is starting to dissipate and I think it's a good thing. 17:38.11 Andrew Kinkella E. 17:40.71 Heather As long. It's controlled as long as the work is done under supervision and it allows people to get some kind of ah some kind of experience over time until they've really kind of cemented their knowledge of the region I think that is huge and you know why? ah 1 of the things I think is huge. 17:40.89 archpodnet Yeah. 17:59.89 Heather Is that there are parts in this country that are paying ridiculous hourly wages for archeologists and so when you have people that are coming in from wherever they're coming in. They're making $13 an hour I might be exaggerating a little bit and they come to California and they're realizing what they can get paid. 18:04.24 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 18:09.62 Andrew Kinkella Here. No. 18:18.30 Heather I think it's going to even out and bring the hourly wage up for archeologists and I think that's key along with mixing other ideas. There's nothing wrong with having somebody from the East Coast come in because they're going to have a they're going to have a whole new fresh eye even though they may not know the region may not know the materials you can teach them that. 18:21.40 Andrew Kinkella Again. 18:21.42 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 18:37.88 Heather But their understanding of how to do archeology is going to be different than those in California and I think that's a good thing. 18:41.31 archpodnet Yeah, for sure all right doug really quickly. What's your 1 thing you won't miss from the pandemic. 18:49.60 Doug Ah, ah I don't think I I mean everything we've kind of mentioned have been sort of trends that were kicking off beforehand that just got you know you just that. Basically we flipped a switch and you had to do. Ah, because of Covid restrictions instantly kicked in. You know, digital and all that sort of stuff. Um I'm not sure if I'm seeing anything that yeah I guess I don't know I think it'd be more gradual but just the way we use everything how we dealt with mental health. 19:12.37 archpodnet Ah. 19:27.66 Doug And Health in general. Um for archaeologists in the past. Um I Hope we do not go back to that I hope we keep I'm not going to say we're at the best that we can be I think there's still a lot of work to do but I would hope we keep moving. 19:35.90 archpodnet Ah. 19:47.62 Doug And the direction we're going as opposed to heading back to where we were. 19:50.23 archpodnet Okay I like it all right guys. Well this has been a great episode. Not honestly I wasn't sure what we're going to get out of this but I think it's a good episode good discussions to have and I hope everybody at their workplaces and in the field in general are having these discussions. So let's. Embrace the things that have come out of covid and say goodbye to the things that have left and move on and be better for it with that. Yep, with that. We'll see you guys in two weeks all right? keeping it rolling for the outro you got to pick it up here all right. 20:11.94 Heather Um, amen. 20:26.51 archpodnet Thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 20:32.81 Andrew Kinkella See you guys later. 20:35.27 Heather Goodbye goodbye everyone thanks for listening. No my goodness Doug put us out for misery. Ah. 20:39.75 archpodnet Doug is counting down for one thousand five hundred in the chat he's he's got two more seconds before I hit end on the recording there. It is ah. 20:45.21 Andrew Kinkella And yeah. 20:47.70 Doug Goodbye.