00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode 234 of the serm archeology podcast and we are talking to Jason King about a new crm- focusedcused field school that they're running in Illinois here in a few months and we're pretty pretty excited about it I got to say and 1 of the things I was wondering. When you were talking about. You know, getting the the real experience here even including report writing you know some lab works and and just seeing how all this comes together have you thought about when you're looking at the future of this field school I know it's early days now when the first time you guys have run this but the first thing it ran through my head. Was some of those university programs. We've talked about on the East Coast I don't know if any in the West Coast are really some on some have but were they're actually like a c or m firm within the school and they're actually doing real crm um work. But they're not, they're doing it somewhat as a learning experience but I was just wondering if you can get people in the field school a little bit early and maybe even like. I mean writing real proposals and doing actual crm projects. You'd have to pick and choose it. It would be a little bit tough to you know to to align things because you never know where the cn project is going to be and what it's going to do and and Entail. So I understand that aspect would be a little challenging but has that been discussed in your guyss. 00:56.47 Heather Right? right. 01:05.74 Heather Nap. 01:13.54 archpodnet Ah, theorizing about the future of this program. 01:14.71 Jason King Ah, it's It's been thought about but not not heavily discussed and I think that'd be a great idea to really give students. Ah the experience of actually participating in a a real crm project that not just taught them. But. 01:29.84 archpodnet M. 01:33.43 Jason King Accomplish the goals that this kind of archeology is set out to do. Um you know in our area. Um, there to my knowledge really isn't a huge demand for that kind of work in in the area. So. 01:36.33 archpodnet Sure. 01:50.88 Jason King Something that it's been on my mind and I would like to incorporate in the future and of course you know this being the first year of it. There's going to be a lot of things that I'm sure we'll encounter and see different ways to do and ways to adjust and based on student and staff feedback. So really anything in my mind. 01:58.61 archpodnet Oh yeah. 02:10.74 Jason King You know is is a possibility as we go forward because our our goal is to build a high quality experience for students at the center again as I mentioned our archeology being more quote unquote research based but you know our our mission is really education research and. Stewardship and service Cfs theirs is education and trying to reach as many people in not just dark all environmental sciences to encourage these field Careers Careers. So the more that we can teach and it teach well and the better experiences the better off the program will be so. 02:31.70 archpodnet Um. 02:41.24 archpodnet Yeah. 02:50.13 Jason King Um, we're always going to be looking to build and find new ways for students to get good quality experience. 02:55.95 archpodnet For sure. Heather. 02:57.75 Heather Yeah I you know this is this is something we've talked about I don't know Jason if you've listened to the podcast but we talk about this a lot about having field schools that really do produce um students and young archeologists or young at least new archeologists. 03:05.47 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 03:17.57 Heather In that are ready to actually work and kind of you know, hit the ground running without having a whole lot of training. Um, you know I think proposals for for people to get kind of the overall experience when it comes to um this Crm Discipline I Think understanding that. 03:18.68 Jason King Is it. 03:37.43 Heather From start to finish. This is what a project looks like I think is important but I don't think um as far as a new archeologist. Um I wouldn't like spend a lot of time on the proposal into things because that's not something that somebody's going to be able to really dive into right? a right away. Um, as ah, somebody who's hiring young archeologists all the time and and wishes we had more um you know having I Just it's always surprising to me the lack of skills that people have and and um. 04:11.73 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:16.10 Heather It's shocking actually that the universities are not preparing people to actually get a job. Um, your first volunteer or I you're going to make a lot more money than you would in Academia if you stick in if you stick with it. Um, yeah, um, and. 04:27.55 Jason King Um, or nonprofit work like. 04:35.59 Heather You know? So so you know that's what universities should be doing universities should be preparing their students to actually get a job and whatever it is that they're learning right? Um, that that's the idea behind the University is to make sure people are are um, hireable And so um, you know as far as. 04:43.18 archpodnet Um. 04:54.83 Heather The field school to me I The the aspects that are really missing In. Um, those that we're getting applications from is just understanding the difference between a C or M survey and a academic survey that. They're very different. It sounds like that is something that you're tackling um how about the speed are you going to be honest with them that um how you approach field work in Academia is very different than how you approach field work and crm. 05:12.93 Jason King Is a. 05:28.31 Jason King That is that is that is our plan. Um, that is something actually Don and I talked about the other day. Um the the need for speed in the differences in really what counts as rapid ah or efficient I should say field work. 05:45.33 Heather Efficient. Yeah. 05:48.15 Jason King And an academic versus a contract setting I will I will say that we try and we're not always successful even with our academic programs efficiency is something we like to like to push because even then you have a narrow window to get work done and even more time constraints in the Crm World. We've had a lot of discussions both amongst ourselves and with other professionals that we know in the field about what are the key things and proposing actually was something that came up in the discussions and we realize we can't teach everyone. 06:23.30 Heather Right. 06:23.54 Jason King Everything and some of the lectures are meant to supplement that but we really like you said want to focus on the things people need to get out and get a job because so many people that we talk to and prep for this and we talked to some you know colleagues and. Friends around the country is that people go to field schools and they know about archeology but they don't know about Crm archeology and essentially have to be retrained right from the beginning and we're hoping a successful a successful program will sort of alleviate that need and help you know. 06:42.63 Heather Man Yes, that's what we have to do? yeah. 06:43.26 Andrew Kinkella Right. 06:55.90 Jason King Folks find jobs because that's you're right? That's what they want at the end and not everyone is going to go into what sort of the general public views as archeology. 06:56.87 archpodnet Mm. 07:06.36 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, you know Jason I hear I hear what you're saying um just say you know I teach a field school as well. But it's a completely different structure I do saturdays only every semester and I have a 3 semester course where it's like ah ah one semester's excavation one semester survey and one semester's lab right? But we're Saturdays only. 07:06.52 Heather Right? You know. 07:15.99 Jason King A while. 07:23.50 Jason King Awesome. 07:26.30 Andrew Kinkella And um, but I I do take what you said to be so true where you have to remember that you can't teach everyone everything you know and and I know in terms of the speed I don't even try and get my students to go at Crm Speed I Just warn them. You know I go like look if you were doing this really. 07:31.57 Heather My home. 07:32.53 Jason King Members. 07:39.48 Jason King Um, appointment with. 07:40.89 Heather Right. 07:44.66 Andrew Kinkella Yeah around world that we go so much faster because I feel like if you give them the core skills right? That's what's so important those basic core field schools how to fill out the paperwork. You know what is a 10 centtimeter level. How does that go then they can rev it up. They'll they'll be able to do it in the job world. As long as they. 08:03.11 Heather Green. Yeah, yeah, definitely though, want to let them know that because that is something that you get the the deer in the headlights at least we do in the sea our world where people are like and actually some pushback and you know. Okay, so you don't hire the person again. 08:03.40 Andrew Kinkella Know what they're doing So you know I would I wouldn't worry about the speed thing as much. 08:06.30 Jason King Yes. 08:17.77 archpodnet Yeah. 08:22.50 Heather But we're there's a real dearth of of um of new archeologists that are coming in I mean it's surprising a lot of it is because we have so much more work now but it used to be that there were too many that the world was kind of saturated with all these new archeologists and now. 08:32.70 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:40.53 Heather We don't have enough to to do what it is that we need to do and so I I totally agree with Andrew and in fact, I'm actually an alum of Andrew's program and I think that that is why I've been able to be successful in my in my careers because I had that right off the bat that real the. 08:59.40 Andrew Kinkella Is here. 08:59.81 Heather Real realistic idea of what c or m was and um and I do agree that you know repetition you can't start off and say okay, we're going to have um, minimal expectations because speed is the most important. No, you have to have somebody who's really good at what they do. And then they can speed it up because it's become second nature over time. Um, but they do need to have that at least introduction to understand that you know it's it's very different that if you're taking a field school in Greece or something or in Egypt or. 09:29.88 archpodnet M. 09:30.74 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, and and I think for um, the proposal thing I think the only way that would work is maybe if you have returning students. Maybe there's students who already went through the program and you could have some sort of advance thing where the you know the students could come in and really try the proposal side after. 09:30.88 Jason King Sure. Okay. 09:38.10 Heather Yes. 09:40.72 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 09:42.65 Jason King Um, yeah, sure. 09:46.35 Heather Yeah, was so was going to ask you if you thought about a staged school where you have you know 1 a one two all 1 you know where they do come back after they've had a year in Crm and then have this opportunity to because there are some companies our companies good at training people up. 10:05.52 Jason King Business. 10:05.74 Heather There's a lot of companies that don't and so somebody ends up getting stuck doing phase ones for 18 years or monitoring and that's all they ever get get to do because they're never taught they're never trained don't have on on the job training. So I think that would be valuable too. 10:18.96 archpodnet Here. 10:19.84 Jason King That actually staged programming is is not something that we've discussed if it and if it's something we thought about I'm forgetting that we thought about it. So That's certainly something take in. And to account and I've written it down Now. So It's going to enter our discussions soon? Um, oh I was going to just say um yeah with it. The issue of sort of training people and training them to. 10:40.39 archpodnet Yeah, and go ahead. Just. 10:52.91 Jason King Be efficient and achieve sort of a pace that is um, needed for so for real world Crm um work at efficiency is actually one of our grading criteria for for our program in that we expect students to you know. 11:05.85 archpodnet Um. 11:11.42 Jason King Learn skills and then as they become more comfortable and work towards mastering them to incorporate into that doing them. You know in a more efficient manner. Ah but you know as everybody knows it's been on a field school field project or taught one you know hustle is a hard thing to teach sometimes. But. It is part of what we expect from students. 11:32.29 archpodnet I mean working from six forty five to nine p m they're going to be. Ah, yeah. 11:32.37 Heather Not good to hear. 11:35.63 Jason King What field. Ah, let me say let me say that that's we sort of like load gear than students were generally after breakfast in the field there are breaks you know lunch and field work typically ends before dinner and then the evening is lab work. 11:35.74 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 11:48.90 archpodnet Sure. 11:55.43 Jason King And or lectures learning about we'll be learning about reporting and that so it's not you know from Dusk till past. Ah earth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:02.72 Heather Physical. Yeah. 12:02.96 archpodnet You're not in the field and whole time. Yeah, that that is actually very similar to that old vi gorge field school I did it was three weeks and we started right at Sunrise we were. We were on our way out to the site and because it was a little bit of a drive over bumpy roads and then. I mean we were going until probably eight nine p m at night which included you know lunch and dinner and all that stuff and that always took like an afternoon siesta in the middle of the day because it's Africa and then ah but the evenings were exactly that it was lab work. It was some lectures learning about the area. 12:23.56 Heather Okay. 12:23.58 Jason King Um, is it. Is this. 12:36.73 archpodnet You know things like that. So actually really enjoyed that pace because while we were in you know the middle of Africa out do the seroadeit like what the heck else are we gonna do. There was no internet. There was no like so that actually was welcoming from that standpoint. But I think if you yeah, you keep it engaging and and you and you you just. 12:44.15 Heather Um. 12:55.25 archpodnet You just kind of keep the momentum going and and as long as everybody gets along I mean that's kind of a big key part of it too. But you know that's part of seam projects too and I mean that's one thing I Always tell people is if you don't like the currency and project you're on. Don't think about quitting like the business because that's what people new in the field. Do. 12:59.43 Jason King In here zero. 13:13.40 archpodnet Just move on to the next project be a whole new group of people and a whole new thing so you know everything's going to change in four weeks don't worry about it but you know along the lines of what some of you guys were saying earlier. Do you have is it like who's going to be I guess administering. 13:13.76 Heather Right? right? right. 13:14.92 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 13:16.60 Jason King It's right. 13:32.00 archpodnet The field school in actually in the field. Obviously you're going to be out there. Do you have other people that are I don't know what the term is like when people are um, you know helping to manage the field school. You've got like a lot of times grad students and stuff that are kind of in those positions and in the context of Crm they would be probably crew chiefs. 13:48.50 Jason King 0 in this. 13:49.84 archpodnet Um, like you would be like the project manager and you'd have like crew chiefs out there. Do you have people like that in the field this first time around. 13:52.48 Jason King We we plan to yes, ah both Don and I will be be with the students throughout the program. You know 1 or 1 or. 13:58.29 archpodnet Okay. 14:06.72 Jason King 1 of us if we have to step off obviously for a little bit that's not not a big deal but we'll both be involved. Um, some of our staff has crm um experience. Um because we have archeologists and educators and we also big long term and we're hoping to for this very first one depending on. 14:07.32 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 14:26.60 Jason King Enrollments of course is to actually hire people that are looking for ah that kind of experience too. So you know if they have adequate field experience and we could actually incorporate sort of a crew chief like. 14:33.14 archpodnet Yeah. 14:41.90 Jason King Position where they also get experience doing that and the center strongly believes in ah sort of educational experience for everyone including our staff and often our so our field other field schools. That's in fact, what they're doing is learning how to lead a ah project too. 14:44.32 archpodnet Right. 14:59.17 Jason King So yes, that is something that is on the table and we're hoping to have a ah full compliment again depending on enrollments. You know if you know 6 people sign up then we probably aren't going to have you know? Ah ah, a crew of crew chiefs helping us so you know we'll see how it goes as it proceeds. 15:12.29 archpodnet Yeah, that is exactly where I was imagining this going either either bringing in existing people I would I mean the cost comes down to it's kind of a big thing with the cost for especially for field technicians right? if you want C or M experience you know paying. 15:28.42 Jason King And then 4 15:31.95 archpodnet Paying a few thousand dollars for that crewchiefing experience might be a hard sell even though it's a really good thing to do and you can put that on your resume if you're not getting the experience elsewhere and it it might actually result in you know, a job that pays you back that money. Um or even approaching crm firms that. 15:43.70 Jason King If. 15:48.59 archpodnet Want to get some people some really fast, really quick. You know good targeted experience in something. Maybe they would even sponsor it I don't know for some of their employees I'm not sure if that if that would be in the cards or not sometimes it's hard to just give people that cm experience in ah in a. In a position where you've got clients breathing down your neck and there's real-world consequences if they screw it up. So um, yeah, but that's really good I like that where you're going with that. Um all right? You know what? I think we're going to take. Ah. Quick break again Heather I see your hand up so we'll get to that on the other side of the break and wrap up this discussion with Jason King about the sergram field school. They're going to be running in Illinois in a few months back in a minute.