00:00.20 archpodnet Welcome back to the third and final segment of episode 2 34 the c m archology podcast and we're talking to Jason King about a crm field school coming up here in Illinois in may of 2022 heather you had a question at the end of the last segment. 00:12.81 Heather Sure, um, actually I mean I I was glad to hear that you're you know, using this opportunity Jason to to educate your staff as well. I think that's awesome I was right away I was thinking to myself. You know we were talking about how about a staged you know field school where people come back and. 00:23.41 archpodnet No. 00:31.74 Heather Thinking that that would be a perfect opportunity to have people then serve as field you know like a crew supervisor but I think Chris had kind of mentioned that um and I was wondering if you thought about actually teaming up or maybe doing um. And this is just another idea you can add to your list. Obviously you're not going to do it this time but maybe giving um you know teaming up with a crm company and actually providing other kind of opportunities. Um, monitoring monitoring is really important because you know a lot of times people think oh you just stick out the guy who's the least. Ah. Experience and really monitoring should be the one who's got the most experience because they're the ones that are hopefully going to find something right was that? Yeah yes, yeah, and if you don't. 01:09.42 archpodnet Ah I've always said that yeah I've always said that because they're the ones they're like the point person that everybody's looking at and they have to record and identify. Yeah, we always stick the green people out there. 01:17.26 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 01:23.74 Heather Yeah, if you don't have an experienced person. Um, you know you pick and choose obviously you have some projects that just have that element where they have to have monitoring but it's really not necessary I mean you're working in Phil and it's just something that the agency has required and silly so you can put somebody out there and kind of give them experience and they're newer. But. 01:27.88 Andrew Kinkella I. 01:43.11 Heather If you're in an area that has any sensitivity at all I mean you you really have to have an experienced person because they're the ones if if they don't catch it. Um, hopefully the ah back operator catches it and if but if neither one catch it. You're out of luck and unfortunately you know the purpose of having somebody out there to preserve and protect is out the window. So. 01:46.58 archpodnet E. 01:52.82 archpodnet Yeah, cool. 02:02.88 Heather Just having you know thinking that maybe that might be something in the future that I I know it be maybe a little difficult. Maybe it's kind of a you know you really have to work with this here in company and then obviously you have liability with projects and things like that. But I think it's workable and I think it's really important because the monitoring. 02:16.22 Jason King Sure. 02:19.84 archpodnet Deaf. 02:22.90 Heather Is you know, really important and kind of sometimes ignored aspect of our of of our discipline. So. 02:29.54 Jason King I yeah I agree I agree with all that it'd be wonderful to to work into the program and monitoring is on our list of important sort of skills and knowledge that that students should come out of the program with teaming up. Ah, with Crm companies crm firms and including our um, our state crm crews that are you know the at least. In some form of interaction that will give students some perspective you know on the sort of the breadth and the variety and the and the discipline is important and so that is something we are looking forward to as we continue to build this program. You know we we designed these first. 03:13.66 archpodnet You. 03:17.97 Jason King 2 sessions and the second one is is going to be adjusted in response to our experiences first and again we just want to keep building this in a way that makes it a high quality high quality experience for really everybody involved. 03:31.40 archpodnet Yeah. 03:31.20 Heather So what I'm I'm curious. What are um, the regulatory aspects that you're going to be teaching. Um, yeah. 03:39.42 Jason King Ah, our our intention is to teach them about both the state and federal laws that affect crm and archeology whether that's Illinois's laws again and this goes back to what I said earlier that obviously. 03:51.27 Heather Okay. 03:58.56 Jason King State laws are going to differ by state and they need to be aware of that. But we're using Illinois and what we do here as an example and so they'll be learning that learning about section one zero six learning about nagpra you know anything you know that that might be relevant. 04:07.24 Heather Her her. 04:17.80 Jason King Consultation and so we want them to we. We want them to come out with sort of a workable knowledge for someone in an entry level position. Obviously we know that these people these students aren't going to exit field school and jump right into you know, high level compliance and consultations. But. 04:33.80 Heather Right. 04:36.32 Jason King We want them to be familiar with the the ethics the laws the language around them and how they're thought about in a modern sense so that they can better engage in the profession and you know grow their own careers hard. 04:48.27 Heather Terrific. Awesome. That's great. 04:48.82 archpodnet Ah, enter. 04:51.11 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I just wanted to follow up on what you said Jason I think it's so important the language they hear around them. You know, um I really try and get my students to know the stuff they'll hear on the site. You know, weird stuff to the to the common person like. 04:55.90 Heather And her. 04:56.54 Jason King This. 05:08.78 Heather Yeah, all the acronyms. Yeah. 05:08.86 Jason King Um, even yes. 05:09.70 Andrew Kinkella What's an Ap you know an area of potential effect you know and there's there's so much Lingo and and Jargon and just so they know when they're on the site. What somebody is actually talking about that I Just think that's really important. 05:14.75 archpodnet Yeah. 05:21.94 Jason King I agree 100% and it really you know ties back to involving other professionals who are immersed in the the profession to provide that for the students and that's you know, sort of authenticy of experience that. 05:23.80 Heather Yep. 05:40.52 Jason King You know, siarn professionals are going to bring to these students which is why for example I'm not leading this just by myself because I'm aware that that's not you know my background I have a little a little ah but that's not my whole background so you know learning the language learning the culture around something is important too. So. 05:42.60 archpodnet Me. 05:57.63 archpodnet So something I'm wondering about because I also host the archeotech podcast is what types of technology are you exposing the students to that are used frequently in serm I'm thinking we'll talk about the first stuff on the basic level like. 05:59.46 Andrew Kinkella Great. 05:59.76 Jason King We hope to give that to them. 06:17.25 archpodnet Obviously submeter gpss and I don't know drones maybe for for surface survey or sorry landscape scale Surveys anything like that. Not too many survey serum companies are using those but some are but I'm just wondering from a technological standpoint you guys are bringing in. 06:31.46 Jason King Ah, well we're we're working on that that's something Don and I are working on right now is and again this is the issue of trying to fit but you know everything into a four week experience where especially when you know you have daytime in you. We got to count for weather and all that. 06:44.60 Heather Now. 06:44.50 archpodnet Yeah, the challenge. 06:50.86 Jason King Um, our goal though is you know to give that with submeter Gps um, and yeah gi ah, or Gps Gis experience and bring in the things that are most commonly encounter. We do have plans to have somebody come out. Um, and. Teach them about drones vote excuse me drones can I say that again we do have plans to. We do have plans to bring out someone that specializes in drone technology and sort of high tech approaches that can give them sort of a practicum. 07:15.00 archpodnet Absolutely yeah. 07:28.22 Jason King Ah, and how to do those kind of things that's on the books right? now we're trying to work out. You know when that's going to happen and how it will one of the nice things about the way our field school set up is we do that half day Saturday which allows us to. Adjust what's going to be done then and we're hoping that. Ah, if it all works out with the person I'm talking to that they'll be able to come out. We'll spend sort of a yeah part. A good part of a Saturday ah teaching people about the applicability of these to different environments and and how it might be used. So. We're trying to incorporate as much as that as we can into it and you know again build into the future more as appropriate. 08:07.17 archpodnet And what about like tablet recording. You know you guys are going to be recording stuff in the field are you doing this on local state site forms on paper writing the rain notebooks are you bringing in some sort of digital recording aspect for that. 08:12.15 Heather Um, yep, okay. 08:15.60 Jason King Its like. 08:21.71 Jason King We've looked into digital recording for ah for the field school. Um, it's super expensive and it's not something we actually practice right now with our with our own field work or. 08:28.38 archpodnet The shirt. 08:35.62 Jason King More traditional kind of paper pen or pencil approach to it. Um, and I think probably for this first one. Maybe the first year will stick to that. However, we've been actively investigating switching over to. 08:39.73 archpodnet Um. 08:51.83 Jason King Ah, some sort of tablet based approach to to data collection. That's that's in the works. But it's not settled yet. Yeah. 08:54.12 Heather You music to Chris's ears 08:55.58 archpodnet Yeah I I'll tell you I do I do consult regularly for wildnote which is a company based out here in California and you know. 08:59.73 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 09:07.15 Jason King Um, is this. 09:10.46 archpodnet They don't have like Illinois -specific site forms I'm not even sure what illinois state site forms even look like but there are um, you know a good field school exercise would be using their form builder to actually build the forms and then use them in the field including lab forms and all kinds of stuff and then using those for data collection and then data extraction at the end. So. Let's have a conversation after this because there might be some get promise anything but there might be some deals that could work out for the for the field school for sure. So yeah. 09:32.30 Heather Yeah, yeah I would death. Yeah no I I I was just going to say I would highly suggest that just because Cr M in general except for you know, smaller companies are really starting. 09:35.84 Jason King Um, that would that would be fantastic I'm sorry God know what. 09:51.44 Heather To they finally started listening to Chris really starting to go digital. We've been digital for a while but it is. It's really important for for students to understand that. That's I mean not that it's it's not market science. It's not hard really actually if you have a really good form. A good field form. Um it it actually. 09:52.28 Jason King Um. 09:54.80 archpodnet Ah, for getting there. 10:05.37 Jason King Isn't. 10:07.31 archpodnet Yeah. 10:11.40 Heather Is easier because we we have a lot of pulldowns. A lot of you know lot of dropdown menus that kind of guide somebody through recording for monitoring or feel you know their testing and whatever. Um, so it actually makes the process easier. So maybe starting with the paper is a good thing because. 10:20.31 archpodnet M. 10:24.49 Jason King Love. 10:29.58 Heather You know that it it helps the student understand the spirit behind recording rather than just filling in the blanks. Yeah yes. 10:35.66 Jason King Lose. 10:35.83 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I would agree Heather it's like the the first day I would do on paper because if you're sitting out there with 20 students you know and they're like I can't turn on my ipad you know it's an extra problem. So it's like I would do paper that first day but then really intro them to the digital world. You know. 10:36.66 archpodnet Yeah. 10:45.22 Jason King Um, the fifth. But. 10:46.34 Heather But does yeah. For sure I would say now Jason yeah, and you can take it for whatever it's worth I have one little suggestion as somebody because you had mentioned gis as somebody who I went back for another graduate degree in gis. So. 10:55.59 Andrew Kinkella During the the project. 11:02.55 Jason King Is it. 11:12.93 Heather 1 in archeology and one in yeah gis and I would say for such a small um or for for only four weeks gis is something that is really difficult to kind of wrap your hand around in just ah, a real you know, short period of time and there's so many explicit if you're working for larger companies. 11:26.14 Jason King Um, most so. 11:32.73 Heather Um, the skill is really not necessary because they had their own gis um staff. But obviously if you're working for a small company gis is important because the especially if it's a you know the the owners aren't. 11:36.52 Jason King Is it books. 11:48.62 Heather You know they don't know how to dogis they really do rely on younger people that had that experience but Gis is so difficult to teach I would highly suggest you know, definitely introducing them to it but I don't just don't see how you could teach them in a four weeks along with everything else that you're trying to teach. 12:01.12 Jason King Isn't. Yeah, it is. It is a lot and that's and that is part of a discussion that we have had um and I think as you're saying one of the things if we can't teach say. For example, Jas. You know the doing of it Again. It's. 12:07.44 Heather Yeah. 12:23.34 Jason King Understanding how what students collect how they understand what they collect gets incorporated into these technologies say in the lab or report writing or anything else and just to understand how it is and how it all fits together because I think what's often missing in field schools in general is. 12:36.71 Heather Yes. 12:42.44 Jason King Process where in a misunderstanding that the field work and artifact washing in basic tabulation is an into itself rather than the first step in the much harder part which is interpreting understanding and making decisions. Um. In the real world. Whether those are research decisions or they're the decisions that those who have contracted archeologists ah have to make So yeah, yeah. 13:07.40 Heather So right? yeah. 13:07.47 Andrew Kinkella Right? You know I would agree with Heather and just say that well while GiS would be a really difficult in that field situation. You know Gps actually I've had really good success. You know where the students just go out with Gps units and record points. It gets them introde into like utms and that kind of stuff. 13:15.83 Heather Yeah, yes, yeah, it's essential. That's essential. Yeah, you have to teach that. Yeah I mean there's too many people that are coming into the into the field that don't. 13:15.85 Jason King Yeah, oh yeah. 13:25.10 Jason King Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 13:26.43 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, that works really well. 13:33.72 Heather Have that they don't even know how to use a compass. It's shocking Jason it's really shocking. 13:35.17 Jason King I oh oh oh no oh no I know I know and you know we not that it's ah this is this is a little off. It's not cn but our educator our education coordinator teaches a a day camp for fifth through eighth graders and they actually do ah. Activity involves ah maps and compasses with those kids because people don't know how to use a compass anymore and so they do compass then they teach him Gps um, even then as you all are saying you know there's so much mapping on phones now that are available but it's so abstracted from. 13:58.53 Heather Yes, yeah. 14:12.60 Jason King Recording basic data and you know we make this assumption that everyone interacts with technology um and should then be able to absorb those skills and learn them quickly and really you know and this isn't complaint I Want my phone to be easy too. But you know several abstraction layers away from basic recording of data and and turning. 14:12.15 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 14:31.40 Jason King Data into a you know representation of the real world. So we hope they get that um out of our experience one. 14:32.62 Andrew Kinkella Who. 14:33.90 archpodnet Yeah. 14:33.66 Heather So I have I've won 1 question that's kind of geared towards the the end probably would be a good wrap up for the field school and that is are you going to be touching on how to get a job what to expect? um from your first. Job and what pay wise. Ah, what is appropriate. Um, there's a lot of talk and I don't know if you're aware of it. But there's a lot of talk about people saying that people are not getting paid enough and I you know I I agree with that but entry level. Um, we're seeing recently where people. Are asking for exortant hourly rates when they have 0 experience none and they are kind of jumping on this band wagon of archeologists aren't paid enough but when you're an entry level with no experience. Ah, you're not going to be making twenty Eight an hour 15:15.10 Jason King Is. 15:28.78 Jason King Right. 15:30.27 Heather And there are people thirty an hour there are people that are asking for that. So it would be I just as a somebody who's hiring at 0 m have a favor would you I really think it would be good to kind of give them the reality of of what they can expect um paywise and and what. What does the first year as a archeologist in c around look like. 15:51.21 Jason King Absolutely absolutely and and that again is why it's so important to have don and then others involved in the field school who are immersed in the profession and to be able to answer those kind of questions and help. Ah, the students understand really what is the field about and what are those experiences about So Absolutely that is part of this.? Ah we viewed this not just as a field school but really as a job training program and we're hoping that students when they leave will be armed with good information. 16:14.31 archpodnet 1 16:28.40 Jason King Um, that will so they'll have reasonable expectations for what archeology jobs are like and and how they can get 1 and so yes, that is something we definitely will be will be talking about with them. 16:40.40 archpodnet I think I think during those evening lab sessions. You just have the crm archeology podcast running in the background and you'll be good to go so you know 200 plus episodes. Ah right right? That's right. 16:47.14 Jason King Um, there you go I. 16:49.16 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 16:50.18 Heather I I like that. Ah, it's extra credit. You know after the nine o'clock but but time. 16:59.10 archpodnet Oh man, all right? Well Jason hey it has been fantastic talking to you I really do wish you guys a lot of success during this this first goround I mean like like a lot of new companies and early projects. There's probably going to be some hiccups but you guys will learn from it and move on. And have an even better program next year and it's just ah, it's really encouraging and I hope other people listening to this think that this sounds like a really good idea because as we mentioned even on the show here c or m is different in different locations and ideally. 17:18.78 Jason King That's right. 17:34.00 archpodnet People who want to work in a certain region would be able to pick. Ah you know a crm based field school in that region that they perhaps want to work in and and they might even give them that that initial bit of experience that people always say regional experience but how the heck do you get regional experience if you don't live there work there or go to school there. So um, you know that's that's ah, that's a common problem as well. So. 17:49.27 Heather Yeah. 17:49.97 Jason King Yeah. 17:54.00 archpodnet Anyway, Thanks again for this. This has been fantastic and ah maybe we can talk to you again in the summertime after the field school is over and see how it went get a catch up. 18:04.94 Jason King Awesome that that would be fantastic. Thank you so much for having me I enjoy this very much um and and if I could let me just say that if students are interested. They could sign up at http://fieldsciences.org or they can find ah. 18:11.52 archpodnet Um. Yeah, yeah. 18:22.52 Jason King Information about the program also at the center for american archaeologylog's website http://cadashareology.org um and you know we're looking forward to. We're looking forward to doing this. We're very excited about this program and ah and anticipate this being a very popular one and good for everyone involved. 18:40.66 archpodnet Awesome! Well we will have all those links in the show notes so look down at your phone pull up the notes and the links are right there and then go sign up for this field school. Especially if you were a a student right now getting ready to graduate and don't know what the heck you're going to do with your life. This would be a great start. This would be a fantastic start to. 18:40.69 Jason King Going forward. 18:59.77 archpodnet Getting that experience and and it sounds like not only could you put this down as this is your field school under your education and requirements. But this is a Crn project guys. So put it down as a job. It's not I mean you're you're paying to be there but put it down as work experience. Not just a field school I would say in this particular case that might be. 19:14.53 Jason King Yeah. 19:16.12 Heather I agree. No I think I think it's important because it separates it. 19:18.25 archpodnet Controversial but that's what I would do so all right? Well thanks again? Yeah yeah, all right? Well thanks again and we will see everybody in a couple weeks. Okay, so Jason we do our outro right now. That's why the recording is still going. Um. 19:31.15 Jason King Thank you. 19:37.21 archpodnet Basically say a little spiel then I say goodbye and then everybody else basically says goodbye at the same time and I fix it in post so all right? So after I say goodbye you can just say goodbye and then I'll hit the stop recording here. We go thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 19:45.42 Jason King Gotcha. 20:00.56 Andrew Kinkella Till next time my friends. 20:00.89 archpodnet Anyone? Well let's say. 20:03.68 Jason King But is supposed to say goodbye there. 20:03.83 Heather Ah, they thank you for joining everyone. 20:05.88 Andrew Kinkella The. 20:05.97 archpodnet Yes, all right? I'll I'll work I'll work something out of that. Ah, all. 20:10.88 Jason King Thank you for having me. But.