00:00.41 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone got a lot of people on today. So I'm going to do this the fun way since it's California for most of them including me now. But joining me today is Bill Heather and Andrew all in California you guys all say hi at the same time. 00:14.64 Andrew Kinkella Um, hello Hello hello. 00:15.20 Heather I We should do it in Harmony Let's work on that. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15.52 succinctbill Hello Wicked hello. 00:18.14 archpodnet But I know right? and wow that's way more than I expected but that's true that true and then we've got doug over in Scotland doug has it going. 00:25.47 succinctbill We need to work on our singing I think okay. 00:27.53 Andrew Kinkella Totally. 00:32.27 Doug Yeah wow I feel a little like outnumbered I mean jeez like I remember this podcast like had people from all over and now it's just like the California C Rm Podcast 00:35.33 Heather This. 00:41.18 archpodnet I Know yeah it kind of is right now. Yeah yeah, well and and. 00:42.85 Andrew Kinkella Those days are gone. 00:44.42 succinctbill Um, yeah, well we're pretty much going to talk about the reason why too right. 00:54.72 archpodnet You know, living in an RV I might be stuck here because I think gas where gas in the town. The route is up to $7 a gallon. So and that's kind of low from what I've seen. Ah, but ah, yeah, yeah. 00:56.82 Heather Gap where yeah, ah set folks go insanes same insanes? yeah. 00:59.88 Andrew Kinkella Wow. 01:03.42 Doug Oh you guys and you're like gasking that high like man that's like $7 a gallon is basically what I paid during like the good times. No, it's because they do it. They do it. They do it in leaders. 01:16.17 Heather Like oh my goodness leaders. Yeah, like. 01:21.29 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 01:23.30 Doug Like like we we buy gas in liters and it's for some for some liters to a a gallon and then like when you do the conversion from like pounds of dollars so I mean the dollar is stronger now. So it's not as bad to use like it used to be like 71 and now it's like one thirty so I think I'm still paying about like $7 at the moment. 01:39.16 Andrew Kinkella But Doug you doug you can still pay it in like pieces of 8 or farthings or something right? You know so that's fine. Yeah. 01:39.24 archpodnet This. 01:39.54 Heather Ah out or bit. 01:41.21 Doug But yeah. 01:44.63 succinctbill Or or viking horns and viking coins and ah but yeah, we're worse. But what's supposed to be the most intelligent of all and this is what we're thinking about Scotland Jesus. 01:45.44 Heather Like yeah, that must come into handy as an archeologist right? know. 01:50.82 archpodnet Um. 01:52.40 Doug Guys Guys men. We are not ah because we have not got the a monetary system yet. It's eggs. We trade everything in eggs and cows. 01:52.56 Andrew Kinkella Ah. Yeah, exactly. Ah. 02:01.38 Heather But pilfering sides to pay for gas. But. 02:03.21 succinctbill Monsters. 02:07.19 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, it's nice I thought. 02:07.22 succinctbill Are. 02:07.42 Heather Ah, okay. 02:08.46 archpodnet It's everything and nice nice. Oh my God All right? Well as Doug prepares his burrows for a trip to town. Um, let's ah, let's talk about the topic for the day so we had some. 02:12.70 Doug I mean. 02:25.76 archpodnet Other ideas and things planned but there's actually some stuff blowing up over on good ol' Facebook right now and the archae field text group and essentially it's the age-old question of pay transparency and this this from what I understand looking back through some of the comments over there and when again we're recording this in. 02:29.57 Heather Little Facebook like great. Yeah. 02:44.29 archpodnet Midmarch or so of 2022 is http://archaeologyfieldwork.com 1 of the two biggest archeology-s specificific job posting sites out there. The other one is of course shovel bums. They both started about the same time and http://archeologyfieldwork.com apparently just came out with a statement saying that they'll now require. Employers to list a pay range or something regarding pay on job postings and that's the first time that I guess an archeology specific one based out of this country has decided to do that and a lot of people though. Use shovel bumps I don't know why. Shovel bums is more popular than Ark Fieldwork They generally kind of tend to have the same job sometimes but and ark fieldwork is free for people to post on so I'm not really sure you know what the deal is there maybe because of the word shovel bum people gravitate to their I know that's the first one I ever went to so but anyway people are telling Rrjo Brandon who is the. Owner and founder and maintainer of shovel bumps that he needs to do the same thing and he came out pretty quickly and said no I'm not going to do that. It is the job of the masses so to speak to require that indicating that. Don't take jobs that don't have a pay range if you don't like what the employer is doing or call the employer and say you need to post a pay range or I'm not taking this job or you know something like that. Basically he's putting it on people to enforce a standard and then employers employers will then you know. Presumably come back and say okay now we're going to do all this and that's where we're sitting at right now. A lot of people are taking him to task on on Facebook saying you know? no you're the gatekeeper. It's up to you and that's basically what we are going to talk about right now. Bill. 04:28.33 succinctbill Yeah I've got a lot to say that because you know for um, this is probably I don't even I didn't have enough time to look through how many times on this podcast. We've said again and again and again that if it doesn't have a pay rate on it like you know buyer. Beware. 04:31.19 Heather I. 04:43.82 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:45.43 succinctbill And so we've said this for many years that they really should be putting them on there. We've had other folks on the show who have also followed our lead and said that you know it's got a that that needs to be something that's disclosed and you know I work for the government right? and for government jobs they post the pay rate and there's ah, there's a huge reason. Why. 04:58.33 archpodnet Ah. 05:05.18 succinctbill In ah California where many of us live you got to know how much money you're going to make before you even spend the time applying to anything from you know working the grounds at the local city park to you know being Dean of a university anthropology department like you you need to know how much money they're going to give you. 05:12.60 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:24.70 succinctbill Before you even think about doing it because in California things are totally expensive and so that's becoming the the case like everywhere across the country and unfortunately in cultural resources. Even though we've been saying this for like the last seven or eight years it's perpetually a thing that continually comes up that you know folks apply. They have great. You know credentials and everything they get interviews and you know they go through the whole motion and then they find out that it's like a totally low offer by no, you know nothing that they did wrong nothing that the company specifically did wrong. They just didn't have the money to pay these higher wages. 05:58.40 archpodnet Um. 06:01.48 succinctbill And then you've got to decide whether you're going to take it or not and in the past when there wasn't very many um folks doing crm um, and there was constantly. You know an oversupply of folks. This wasn't really a problem because the company could just you know switch through all the different you know resumes and applications go through the interview process and everything. Just pick and choose whoever is going to work for those kind of wages and you know you just take what you get back in the day but I mean the government the the government jobs they have long since told you you know pretty much in line 1 or somewhere a whole section that shows you the pay range and you know that's one of the things I think a lot of people like is the you know not just the stability. 06:23.27 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:39.40 succinctbill Of the government jobs but that you kind of know what you're getting yourself into it very clearly tells you what kind of degrees they're looking for it very clearly tells you the kind of activities and things that they want in the applicant and it also very clearly tells you how much it is and then you get to look and see like oh man Hilo Hawaii and they're only going to pay 30000 06:43.75 archpodnet Um. 06:56.38 succinctbill I don't know if I should really move from Colorado all the way there right? you know in advance whether you should even try for that. So I don't to me. It always has been like a mystery on how come that's not just a normal practice but you know hey like I said I'm just one of the government workers here. 06:57.99 archpodnet Yeah. 07:11.88 archpodnet Yeah heather. 07:14.49 Heather So um I I it is kind of yeah I don't see why people can't pay post a pay range. Um I see why they don't I also don't I think there's is just as much. Of ah of a good point to say well then why don't you ask before you start your conversation. You know I mean like the first conversation that you should have when there's a posting is you contact them and say hey what you know what is the range before you go through the whole process of an interview. That's a fair question to ask and anybody that holds out against you is ridiculous now. Do you want? you know some of it the process of getting a job and interviewing for a job is very It's awkward and especially awkward for people who are entering the job market. So it's really difficult. It feels. Ah, weird for some reason in this country and I don't think it's just this country but people have a hard time asking. You know, asking about money talking about money in all different types of environments. Not just the job market right? People don't share what they make for for a living. Um lots of people. 08:25.58 archpodnet Ah. 08:32.51 Heather Don't ask for raises I mean I've had a just increase to employees that are as needed by the Way. So I Do want to kind of preface this I am like whatever the over Ogre C or M Ogre hirer right? at this point but I just. Increase to as needed employees that have never asked for a raise and I'm like I was waiting for them as but this is not right like you should be paid more right? So without asking or anything I gave them a pay raise a good one too And um. 08:58.18 archpodnet Yeah. Yeah. 09:06.24 Heather And I actually had people in my company said why are you doing this. They didn't ask I said well because to me it's the right thing to do. Um, they're they're good workers. They they always show up. Theyre I never have any trouble with them. They they they you know deserved to earn more so coming from that perspective. That's where I sit but the same time. 09:09.59 archpodnet On him. 09:24.97 Heather What is the big deal about if you want the job right? and it doesn't have a posting for for pay and people have to understand this is some people's world is this Facebook and you know this communication but there's a lot of employers that are completely out of touch. They have no idea that this is kind of a big thing so you're missing out by just. 09:43.38 archpodnet What's part of the problem. Yeah. 09:44.46 Heather Not make yeah it is part of the problem but you are being short sighted if you're not willing to just call that number and say hey what's the pay range on this you know before you even start the conversation interview. 09:51.96 archpodnet But just just from a but just from a just from a workload perspective though I mean if I'm going to post a job I don't want a hundred phone calls from people who don't want to work for me because they they don't fit within the pay range. 10:03.77 Heather True true I I I agree but I will tell you 1 reason 1 reason there's other reasons but there are 1 reason because people are there's a lot of times that people are just. 10:08.79 archpodnet You know what? I mean so I'd rather just post that and eliminate those calls. 10:23.29 Heather Posting companies are just posting a job that would cover lots of different aspects so you're saying hey we have a we have a field job. Um that we need to fill a field crew a field director. Um. 10:28.75 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:36.66 archpodnet Um. 10:39.45 Heather Just regular crew we have oh we runs the gamut. So what are you gonna do? Oh I'm gonna post that it's going to run from $20 an hour to $50 an hour. How is that pay range even helpful. It's not and so that's why sometimes you don't see some pay ranges I think there are sometimes where people are trying to. You know there's always crummy people in every environment but a lot of times it's because they're trying to get the big bang for the buck. Hey we've they're looking at it as a project posting not as an a job posting right? So if they were otherwise they'd have to go and. Have a job posting for their field director a job posting for their crew a job posting for their crew supervisor a job like you have to have 5 different postings and they just need to fill these spots immediately and so looking at it more on a project basis than they are on a specific job basis and because of that. They think. Ah, that's 20 to $50 pay range is not helpful to anyone right? and then then you have the knuckle heads who just came out of college who say oh well top 50 is top That's what I should get and I get those calls people think that's I get those calls all the time people like no I'm not going to. 11:42.93 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 11:49.66 Heather No you you said top pay is fifty bucks that's what that that's what I want even though they're not their their experience is not commensurate with what they're asking for. Um. 11:56.40 archpodnet Yeah, well then they'll learn the hard way. 11:56.18 succinctbill Well I mean there but you know they can always yeah they can work it. Best buy I mean I don't really know what else to say and also having that having that that pay skill that doesn't seem like it's super useful 20 to $50 an hour I mean folks know that 20 is what they're going to give because I mean. 12:02.27 Heather Um, yeah. 12:14.87 succinctbill It's been a long time since I was applying to jobs and crm um and everything but I just remember the the pay thing was always just this crazy monkey business that after they said they really wanted you then they would come in with something that's just. You know they're going to rip you off essentially that's that that was what I always remember I always remember that being a thing and I always remember you know when ah when I was on the hourly scale and I was trying to work project to project I always remember that was a total shenanigan and like you know as someone who's honestly just trying to apply it to a job. Find out. This thing is like $13 an hour and you're shaking your head like I mean I'm on unemployment man I'm trying to find some kind of a way to put gas in my car and you know pay my rent and they're going to give me this job offer and like you're super desperate and and I totally know. That's what's going on with companies. They've been doing it for fifty something years now 13:06.80 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, you know, ah Bill that was my exact same experience. You know with the the term shenanigans for the pay that is perfect. You know like they would they would say oh it's going to be about this I remember once being denied. 13:06.95 Heather I I. 13:07.00 archpodnet Um. 13:16.82 archpodnet Yeah. 13:23.50 Andrew Kinkella ¢91 an hour like I was supposed to be working for 1191 and this is a long time ago and I remember I only got $11 an hour because they said oh the ¢91 was actually only for people from Texas like what? yeah um. 13:34.59 archpodnet Wow yeah, yeah, well everything is bigger in Texas so yeah, including payx. 13:36.33 Heather Yeah. 13:39.74 succinctbill And including paychecks. 13:42.81 Andrew Kinkella Right? So I have my feeling is from talking to my students and everyone who's currently Instagram I don't think it's as bad as the bad old days I'm not here to say it's good, but it does seem more smooth maybe than what we experienced. 13:49.60 Heather No, it's from the other side and Chris I don't you know you hire people to um it this idea and and this is a really. It's a I totally get the idea. 13:53.98 archpodnet Um. Um, yeah. 14:08.14 Heather Um, of thinking that the companies are trying to screw over the people that they're hiring. No I I do think there are some people like there's crummy people in every environment but I know when I'm hiring I want I want to give people what they want I want them to have a career here I want them to be happy. 14:15.38 archpodnet Yeah. 14:27.56 Heather Retaining employees is a beneficial thing for a company even as needed employees. It's beneficial. It costs too much money I put a lot of investment. We put a lot of investment into people even as needed in training them I don't want to lose them retention of employees is important and so I. 14:29.75 archpodnet Um. 14:40.39 archpodnet Yeah. 14:45.57 Heather I'm not looking at this trying to screw you but at the same time I also have there is also a profit margin and as much as people think otherwise the profit margin Crm is pretty low. It is pretty low and we can go into that and why that is but I think there's a lot of ignorance and I don't mean in a. 14:56.39 archpodnet Yeah. 15:04.84 Heather Bad sense I I mean the true ignorance and true definition of the word. There's a lot of ignorance from the from the people trying to get a job in knowing why pay scales are the way they are and yeah, sounds. 15:15.66 archpodnet Well Heather though. It's that the ignorance comes from the the lack of um, the lack of employers telling them why pay scales are where they're at and things like that and then. 15:29.15 Heather It's a combination that's part of it. Yeah. 15:29.55 archpodnet You know there's just it is a combination that's for sure I mean there's a lot of people myself included when I was a field tech for sure I'm like I have no idea what's my pay is based around here I mean at least a part of it is the company and and every company does this not just c or m companies. But every company on the planet will try to get. People to work for as little as possible to increase their profit margins. That's the negotiation that you do even if you're working at Walmart you know what? I mean like I mean the companies try to make money. That's what they do. They're a profitable company and they're going to try to get that labor for for the lowest price that they can but still hopefully trying to be fair, right? and. 16:04.47 Heather Um, yes. 16:06.78 archpodnet But then but then there's all kinds of really big problems with all this and we're going to take it to break here in a second because I know everybody that wants to speak is going to have a lot to say but I'll just take us out with this as I was thinking about what you were saying Yes, there are things you know the profit margin is really low in crm. 16:15.63 Heather Ah. 16:25.26 archpodnet But again like the Facebook post talking about the gatekeepers and the and the job postings. There's other gatekeepers too and those gatekeepers areerm employers and those employers you know when we bid on projects. We bid to try to win the project and the bids get lower and lower and lower. And and at some point you got to say enough is enough because this is destroying my profit margin and my ability to pay my people at a good rate and I'm just not going to take that job not all companies. You're right, not all companies. Yeah and and with a lot of the work in California these days it sounds like it's ah it's a buyers market for for getting projects right now. 16:48.49 Heather Not all companies. No. 17:01.50 archpodnet But the point is there's a lot of steps in this chain that could be improved to bring up. People's pay scales and and I do feel that some of the smaller companies out there and I don't I don't think these pay discussions are directed at the really big companies but the smaller companies out there. 17:02.64 Heather It is those walk steps in this chain that cook the free. 17:11.99 Heather Perspective Nope this all is out there. 17:16.18 archpodnet They probably don't want to post their pay range because they themselves are embarrassed at it. They're like listen this is what I have to do to get any work and this is what I have to pay you and they just don't want to put that out there and they they'd rather somebody just called so it's not like public domain. So anyway I know you guys I know. 17:27.98 Heather I Have a theory on that I will wait. Ah. 17:32.41 archpodnet We'll wait you guys ever? Want to say to that Doug's hand has been up for like 10 minutes and we'll kick this back off on the other side of the brag standby sorry back in a minute. 17:37.90 Heather Um, I get.