00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode two thirty five the c mark podcast and this is such a hot topic. We spent like the last twenty minutes not recording talking about this and other things. So it's a pretty contentious and I'm I'm hoping we get some good engagement and conversation off this because that is whole point of these shows is to. To to get conversations started and and keep them going so doug we didn't give you a chance in the last half of the first segment to give your piece. You've been living in Scotland for the last ten years but done a lot of research over here. So what do you got to say. 00:29.78 Doug Yeah man I have ah of a couple of comments. Um one is I ah commenting off of what Heather had said about like the range and stuff because you're hiring for multiple positions. Um. 00:41.56 archpodnet Well. 00:44.29 Doug I mean we see it over here. It's not quite as bad. It's like $20 to like $50 because wages are too damn compressed over in the Uk um, but I've always seen that and I know some of it is also just like archaeologists being cheap. Um, because like you if you have to pay for the job advert. 00:51.90 archpodnet Um, yeah me. 01:03.94 Doug Um, instead of doing like you know if you have like 3 or 4 positions. You do 1 advert. Um, and it saves you a couple hundred pounds because I think currently most of the job adverts. It's one 25 or something on bat or something like that I understand that whole being cheap and whatnot. But. 01:16.56 archpodnet On. 01:23.46 Doug Um I was just going to say it's like you can even put in a note like if you if you're if you're saying like yeah we have fieldwork and we're hiring for multiple positions like even just a little note saying like because if you're if you're using fieldwork and Shovel Bums. You can basically write whatever you want. Um, unless things have changed Um, dramatically I mean it's always sort of been a bit hit or Miss actually in terms of the quality of like information on any job post because basically there's no template. Um and just like if you have like you know fieldwork multiple positions. 01:52.88 archpodnet Um, yeah. 01:58.23 Doug Even just putting like the tiniest little note that says like yo field tech 20 to 22 ah crew chief 22 to like 26 you know something like that is I think it's quite doable. Um I understand like you know if you're doing something like monster. 02:02.50 archpodnet Okay. 02:16.26 Doug Indeed or you know those big ones they they have you know it's a form and you don't have that sort of um leeway. But even like in job descriptions. You could just put like a note there? Um, so like I I don't unless Heather you I mean maybe you do have a sort of um. Reason beyond that but I I think it's a pretty simple solution to you know if you're hiring from multiple positions. Just a quick note saying what level each position is at um. 02:42.49 Heather Yeah I think that I think you should like if I the last time I posted. Ah I think I for say I The last time I posted I have posted pay ranges. Um I don't typically do the posting. 02:46.50 archpodnet Yeah. 03:02.47 Heather It's usually you know you put a link in it in there from your company right? So but my my my reason for saying what I said was not to say they shouldn't it was to let people understand that it's not because necessarily because people are trying to screw you I think sometimes it is that. But a lot of times. It's just because the employers just aren't realizing that that is important again. This is something that's really a hot topic for people but and I'm I'm saying this to my company all the time I tried to say Liz I'm telling you this is what's happening and they're like they just look at me like I'm crazy and then you know. Ah, year down the road like oh Heather did tell us about this. You know it and so people this the employers are being short sighted. What I'm trying to encourage is that the employees the candidates not be short sighted and you know it's up to you if you don't want. 03:42.79 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:57.79 Heather To go after or even consider a job that doesn't have a pay range fine but don't assume it's because it's this ogre who's trying to keep you down. There are some people like that but that should be sussed out pretty quickly by just asking what their pay range is and so what I'm saying is is that just don't limit your. 04:12.16 archpodnet Ah. 04:17.90 Heather You're limit the possibilities because you assume if the pay range isn't on there. It's because employers are trying to screw you. That's not always the Case. It's because sometimes employers just don't realize that that's something they should do and I know some people would say ok well, there's the argument if all job posting sites. Were to require a pay range then the employers would realize that you know that's that's something they have to include and so there's an argument for that for sure. Um, but I say in the interim while people are looking for Jobs. Don't just count them out unless you can afford to do that. Don't just. 04:43.50 archpodnet Yeah. 04:53.82 Heather Count those out because you think that it's you know a company who's who's going to pay low. They might be paying very well and and they just didn't realize that they should be putting a range. 05:00.31 Andrew Kinkella Right? right? You know actually I have a I have a follow up question. Oh wait I sorry just just click one I have a followup question for for Heather the ogre c r m person. Um, so Heather the ogre. Ah I I'm curious about um. 05:00.47 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:03.87 Doug I I kind of moves on sorry ah. 05:09.25 Heather Um, yeah. 05:14.68 Heather Um, yes. 05:15.37 archpodnet This. 05:19.63 Andrew Kinkella This may have come up earlier and I might have just just missed it but is it also sometimes that crm companies don't want to post the pay because other CRM companies will see it and it's like if I'm posting 20 to 22 the other guys will see it and they'll say well we're posting 21 to 23 05:33.21 Heather Ah, you know what I never thought of it that way. But again I'm not in the high I mean yes I hire people but like we I have a larger company. We have an a H R We have a talent acquisitionist. Whatever um that yeah, that's the new title now um a talent acquisition is. 05:44.60 archpodnet Um, um, higher. Yeah. 05:46.73 Andrew Kinkella Right. 05:51.43 Heather That Um, that kind of filters through their stuff and they're the ones usually that post. So maybe I don't know if it's really I think it's a really good point. Maybe some are are thinking that um, we're known for paying higher the most and so um, paying more. 06:01.42 Andrew Kinkella In right. 06:11.12 Heather To me is a good way of of retaining people long term. Um, and so yeah, obviously that's let's say give in right? Um, but I could see that and that might be a for some people that may be consideration for sure. Yeah. 06:15.18 archpodnet Um, yeah. 06:15.32 Andrew Kinkella Um, yes. 06:23.94 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I was just curious. Um. 06:25.87 Doug Well I was just so my sort of follow on. Um, which I think ties in really well with Heather is I think actually a lot of people don't give this any sort of thought like I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people have posted jobs. Ah for crm jobs. Have just posted what they've seen which is what you know someone else had seen like 10 years before which people had seen twenty years before like I don't think actually many people give a lot of detailed thought and so like we have picked up a lot of bad habits that just. 07:00.77 Heather Ah. 07:04.55 Doug That's how everyone you know it's one of those things where like it's the way you were taught and that's that's how it goes um and I do so like it's a bit more complicated in the U K Generally um, the job postings for archeology. Um, so like Badger requires. Ah. 07:06.62 Heather Right. 07:23.89 Doug You know pay you know what the pay is except when he doesn't and that's because like so you know big engineering multinational you know 30000 employees around the world. Um, the big engineering firms. They'll have an hr policy that says we don't post job. Ah. Ranges and then there is no way that the archeologist who might have a team of like you know 20 people who are probably some of the lowest paid people and the entire organization is going to be able to convince hr that they can do it and so some of it like I mean some of it. We're assuming that like you know. 07:56.94 Heather Yeah, yeah. 08:02.67 Doug All Crm people have like some sort of agency here. You know some of those bigger companies. It's policy and that's it like there's there's no, you have no power to change that policy. So I think you kind of do have to look at who's posting. So if it's like ah um I want to call out any names. But if you if you're seeing ah a. 08:06.70 Heather Sure? yep. Yes. 08:22.46 Doug Ah, company. That's ah, a fairly large you know multi International um thousands of employees wherever and they're They're not posting jobs. That's that's that's probably company policy and then there's not. It's not like they don't want to because usually. 08:39.36 Heather Right. 08:42.32 Doug They can pay much better and they usually do pay much better because it'll be sort of on the consulting side or something like that. Um, and because also like those companies will have set ah pay ranges and they just they'll laugh at when they see like the going rates of archaeologists and they're like well our lowest rates don't even cover that that's like intern pay. Um, and so like you know it's just it's one of those things. So I think you have to kind of look at who's posting. Um and I guess in semi-defense of like Brandon um, or arjo is. And also like in defense of like David over in the u k is like that's their business like when when he was basically saying he's not um, going to force employers to post job. Ah you know, pay ranges that's because like you know that's his that's his job 09:38.55 archpodnet Yeah. 09:38.66 Doug That's has been his day job for maybe 15 I can't remember when he he stopped doing like um like field work. Yeah, but it's been at least like I don't know yeah a decade plus um maybe two decades I think it's been. 09:39.90 Heather Yep. 09:45.76 archpodnet Like actual Sarah yeah, but a while. 09:47.39 Heather I have. 09:57.34 Doug For a long time and that's at least 15 years I think 2005 ish maybe two thousand and six seven he started basically doing that and it's the same thing with David so David does a step further and he won't post jobs below a certain threshold. Um, and that. 10:01.86 archpodnet Yeah, either way. 10:11.65 archpodnet And. 10:15.31 Doug Pisses off some employers and so it's a huge negotiation each year with between him and employers and like what his minimum is going to be because you know he can't he can't push and he used to have like minimums for all sorts of levels. And now it's just like the bare minimum for your your field tech level and you know it's it's ah it's a hard thing. He pushes too hard against employers. He doesn't you know that's okay I I'm like I say it's his main income so I want like out David's ah you know stuff but it's a significant ah income I'm pretty sure for ar joe. He's not making anything any that much money off of his t-shirts or anything like that. So I I kind of understand where it's going like you know why? you're those people who run the job boards are not as keen because. So employers have said they're not as keen and I'm I'm pretty sure this just comes back to a lot of people are doing what they've always done and probably a lot of people have fears that they don't um that they haven't talked out that may not actually be real fears. So like when you guys were talking to Andrew when you were mentioning like. 11:11.74 archpodnet And more. 11:17.28 archpodnet Yeah. 11:30.40 Doug Some people don't um, post because you know they don't want to be undercut or overcut but actually as you know if you thought about logically you would want to know exactly what the going rate is and I know um this is going to be a double-edged sword that people aren't quite thinking about there. Everyone's thinking like. Oh if everyone posts you know wages wages will go up. That's not necessarily true because what's going to happen is we're going to hit a recession and you know what's going to happen is someone's going to post you know like okay, let's say the going rate hypothetical $20 an hour across the us everywhere. It's it's toy dollars. 11:53.98 Heather Exactly true. 12:09.30 Doug And then you know what's gonna happen. Someone's going to post for like 1950 and then someone's gonna post for 17 and if they can post that low and still get um staff wages are going to go down so like um ah I'm all for it. But. 12:24.99 Heather Yep. 12:27.24 Doug I Think people need to realize that like more information isn't always your friend. Um and and to be honest, like because I've compiled um you know job job rates going rates from the job boards of Shovel bums and archaeo field work. Um, and to be honest, actually at the lower level like. 12:27.64 Heather Goes both ways. Yes. 12:30.70 archpodnet Um, yeah, um. 12:47.60 Doug Pretty much I'd have to go back and look but probably like 80% of field tech and crew chief jobs have wages in them I mean it's been a couple of years since I've done that but that's been pretty much true. It's once you get to like project manager or pi that almost no one ever posts anything. 12:47.92 archpodnet Are. 13:02.94 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 13:03.66 Heather Yep, right? yep. 13:06.64 Doug Ever. So I think you know everyone's talking about like field tech those are pretty I mean we have pretty good and everyone kind of knows what the going rates are and honestly going back to like having done jobs where you get like you know and during recession when you have a hundred. 13:21.67 archpodnet Um, well Doug Doug Doug Doug pause did we have like a hundred things to comment on so far you can't just keep going. Yeah, we're not going to get to it all. 13:22.41 Andrew Kinkella Um, it yeah. 13:25.94 Doug Um, a hundred applications men. Yeah oh no give me a second give me a second I'm wrapping it up. All my say is like no no, you got time? um I was just say is basically like having done. 13:33.86 Andrew Kinkella The well. 13:39.91 archpodnet Ah. 13:43.44 Doug Ah, job posting where like a hundred people apply like it is a huge waste of time if like 50 of those people call me and ask what a job. You know what the pay is or also like I go through the entire interview thing I mean it's a pretty big risk for employers like you go through the you know. 13:52.35 archpodnet Yes. 14:03.16 Doug It depends you know sometimes it's you know Ah, an employer's market sometimes as employees and like if you go to that whole process. Maybe you interview like 3 or 4 people and like you you go to offer the job and they're like no the pay is too low. You've just spent all that time. Maybe you go to your second choice or maybe like. Everyone turns you down and you have to do that whole process again. So I think people don't like on the employee's employer side. Sometimes I think people haven't actually thought through what goes into you know, actually posting a job actually critically thought about like. 14:34.78 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 14:38.75 Doug Is this even costing you more time by not putting up wages or not putting up wages but you know putting out your wages or your your range your pay range all right I'll stop now. So you guys can all comment you California mafia. 14:39.38 Heather Mask. 14:52.70 archpodnet I don't even know what to comment on at this point I will ask a question though because I'm curious as to what's happening with badger now when you were talking about David for those of you that don't know that's David Connolly who runs the british archeological jobs and resources. Page which is badger which is like the shovel bombs arc field work equivalent over there except way better. Um, he's just doing so many cool things with with the whole badger setup but my my question is I want to know Doug do you know where else because if they're not reaching his thresholds like ah, an employer for for posting. Where else are they posting and I'm asking that because a lot of people and I don't think it's I don't think it's you know enough that it's taking business away from arjo but ah, well not not too much anyway, but a lot of people are just posting on Facebook these days and that I think you guys are talking about inflation and if people start doing this and that but you know what. 15:40.78 Heather Um, yep. 15:47.51 archpodnet They're just going to say screw everybody I'm posting this on Facebook because there's literally no regulation and then it's going to fall on people like me who's an admin of archaeo field text we're going to get taken the task and they're going to say take these job postings down because they suck. 15:50.67 Heather Yep. 15:54.15 Heather Right? They've already tried. Yeah right right? I think I'll go ahead. Yeah. 16:01.30 archpodnet And they've already tried and we've already said collectively the admins. No, we're not going to do that. You guys take them down in the comments but where but real quick where Doug where Doug are they posting because I don't see british jobs being posted in archo field text. It's mostly californians in there where. And and the badger Facebook page I assume David would just take those down for the badger Facebook page so is there a british archeological field text or crm type page that none of us know about where people are you know posting these jobs outside of badger. 16:31.18 Doug Yeah, so um, one cefa which is the charter institute for archaeologists which is like the British equivalent of rpa. They have a jobs board which oh gosh they keep changing the name. It was like jobs information service and something and. 16:37.52 archpodnet Um, yeah. 16:48.28 archpodnet Right. 16:50.51 Doug Now it's something else, but that's like ah, a weekly email that goes around and they also have it goes up on their website. Um, so those are the 2 main job boards a lot of other people over the years have tried to start their own. Um, but. 16:54.36 archpodnet Sure. 17:06.74 Doug Honestly, like a lot of employers if they can't meet the ah the threshold they just go on someplace like so indeed does that like do you guys have indeed in the states. Yeah, yeah, so I mean there's there's other job posting stuff that actually some companies are just um. 17:14.60 archpodnet Yeah, yeah course it's the internet. 17:15.52 Heather Yeah, yes, yeah. 17:25.79 Doug Fine doing or like you know it's It's a bit complicated but like and you get this in some parts of the states where like yeah, there's only so much work in sort of small rural areas and you basically have like you're not going to have those companies that work. There are not going to get like the pipeline deals. Because that goes to someone who's working across like the country or big things like that so they have like small work and they basically have the same one or 2 people they have worked for them for forever that they work on so you know it's a mix like some people just have sort of ah a. Personal rotation of local people that they always work with and that's who they go to and they don't really ever need to post for jobs. They they can just work with the employees they have and others. Yeah indeed or honestly the wage. 18:11.60 archpodnet Ah. 18:20.45 archpodnet Okay. 18:23.48 Doug Limit on Badger is so low that most people make it or pay pay above it anyways that it's only a small number that don't post there So there's there's always other places people can go to post. 18:31.69 archpodnet Okay, okay, yeah, it's good to know all right hey guys we need to take a break and doug needs to get across water and then we will come back on the other side and. I doubt I but I usually say wrap up this discussion but there's no way we're going to wrap it up. We're just going to keep talking about it for another 20 minutes and then end the show so we'll back on the other side back in a minute. 18:47.40 Heather Um, now. Um.