00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode two thirty seven of the serum archeology podcast and we're talking about the Peter Principle Doug's topic today and I was wondering in the last segment and this is very pertinent to my current situation because I'm wondering about hiring practices because as. 00:09.91 Heather V. 00:17.98 archpodnet A lot of people know who listen to several podcasts that I'm on I'm doing sort of a somewhat of a primary gig right now that is not in archeology at all. It's in safety and software implementation and I'm doing I'm doing I'm still doing like contract work and I'm still doing like some archeology jobs and I'm still obviously doing the archeology podcast network. But ah I'm I'm kind of like. Focusing on some other stuff as well to help pay for all these other things that don't make any money so I'm I'm mentioning that because there's a position that opened up at this company that I'm really only qualified for because I've been doing the software implementation for about the last two and a half years the position actually requires some. Ah, management experience which I do have it requires some other things and I'm being interviewed for it on Tuesday they're also interviewing other people of course outside the company. This was published wide. It's been sent to like you know corporate head hunters and and people like that now this is for a pretty big, a pretty big position right? It's it's It's called a program manager and it's for all of western the western hemisphere because we have one in the eastern hemisphere in Australia so it's ah it's kind of a big spot and they're not just like promoting within without doing anything I don't even think they're allowed to do that right? So I'm wondering. About some of these bigger companies and I'm really kind of talking to you at this point Heather you know when you're talking about promoting somebody from say field tech to crew chief or crew chief to project manager or whatever steps you have within your company are you actually required for these archeological positions to seek out to. Publish the job posting publicly first before just doing a field promotion and and bringing somebody in or are you are you allowed to do those like field promotions when you know shit hits the fan and you don't have anybody. 02:02.54 Heather I Think you know that's a really good question I'm I'm not an expert in hiring but from my understanding if it it if there is a new a new position and you need to fill that position or you have a position that's been emptied because somebody's left. My understanding is yes, you do have to have this. You have to have it at least published on your site where you have a career a job description where you're saying you can't just hire people. That's my understanding but I might I might be wrong, but you know there is room for promoting people. 02:33.32 archpodnet Right. 02:39.67 Heather To that next level without having to open that up to you know the job opening to to everyone. But yes I mean that's why companies have these career pages on their website that um, always post their job descriptions and yes. 02:48.68 archpodnet Mm. 02:58.49 Heather There are a lot of times. All you know all companies do it where you know they have it open for a certain amount of time or they even publish it um in whatever you know avenues to make it look like it's at least fair across the board and sometimes you end up with a better person coming in. Um, who applies for a lot of times. 03:13.20 archpodnet Um, yeah. 03:17.95 Heather They do it and they'll do it for a short period of time because they've already airmarked somebody for it. Ah, but my understanding is yes, you do have to do that. 03:21.16 archpodnet That that actually also just happened to me because coincidentally one of the clients that I helped implement this software for a really big construction firm in this company in this sorry in this country. They actually their their hr person unbeknownst to them found me on Linkedin because they were looking for somebody who knows this software because they were hiring within for basically this same kind of position but just for this one client and she's like hey do you want to be interviewed and I was like well I I won't turn anything down. You know, let's just have let's have a conversation about it and then. Before they even scheduled an interview and we had a chitchat back and forth. She said they hired internally and I'm like okay so I know what was going on. You had to publish this post and but you'd already earmarked who you were going to do for this job which I know who's working for this software for their company and I was like. 03:59.58 Heather Um, yeah. 04:10.20 archpodnet Aren't you hiring this woman because she's she's already works there and she's more appropriate for the job and turns out that's who they gave the job so but it was just like you know the Hr person didn't know any better that you know she just like was given a job post and said here go find somebody. 04:11.24 Heather Right. 04:24.41 archpodnet And and line up candidates while internally they're just waiting out a certain time period and they hired the person they wanted to hire. So um I totally get that let's ah but I just wanted to get that in because I was really wondering about that in the beginning and you know archeology. That's. Feel like that kind of stuff is going to start happening more and more as more larger engineering firms like the standex of the world and stuff like that that are starting to buy up every all the small businesses and even paleoest and stuff like that I don't know breathing in have better training programs or or they're gonna have to. They're gonna have to have different hiring practices but Doug had some. Some other stuff to bring this in and and and we're 5 minutes in Doug I got my monologue there you go. It's your turn. 05:03.70 Doug Yeah, nice, um, actually it was to keep going on your on your question because I'm a bit torn about that sort of um the idea of internally hiring her externally because there are some organizations that do that and then there are also like a lot of especially in the United States There's a lot. 05:07.61 archpodnet Ah, yeah. 05:21.69 Doug Ph d programs master's programs that do that like they won't accept their undergraduates um into their programs. So like I mean basically I had to go I had to leave New Mexico because you and m doesn't accept um, any of really any of their undergraduates into um. 05:34.50 archpodnet M. 05:39.10 Doug You know their programs I'm somewhat torn like in a sense I understand from the hiring point of view. You kind of want to diversify your workforce and by bringing in someone Externally you're bringing in a bunch of different skills and knowledge that you haven't trained up. So. 05:52.73 archpodnet And ideas. 05:56.38 Doug Yeah, and idea is's basic basically bringing a lot of ideas which can be really helpful. Um, but I'm also somewhat torn in that like not everyone can move and archeology like that that sort of makes sense in like really big fields where you might have like 20 offices and you in like the city you. 05:58.75 archpodnet Yeah. 06:05.14 archpodnet Um. 06:16.12 Doug Work in and that that can happen but archeology is so small that you know sometimes you're you're lucky if you have like 1 employer in the town you live in. Um and so you're you're kind of a bit stock. So if you do that sort of external hiring. Um. You're you're making it difficult on the people who can't just uproot their entire life. Um, for any number of reasons like I mean you know family or maybe you're a caretaker for a sick parent or you know you just actually can't sell your house I mean there's just so many reasons why people can't move. Um. 06:53.99 archpodnet Logistics. 06:54.76 Doug Ah, so I know I'm torn like I don't I I see it as a positive I Also see it as a huge negative for people for a lot of people who can't move out or out of state or out of town. Um, so I don't know that that was just my thoughts on it. 07:02.29 archpodnet M. 07:08.47 archpodnet Yeah I think bill was up next. 07:08.56 succinctbill Yeah, and also I'm thinking of folks who yeah I'm thinking of folks who don't want to move up and you know I work in Academia and there's a lot of motivation to not to not go higher for some individual I mean there's some people who are just looking at straight. 07:14.78 archpodnet Yeah. 07:20.32 Heather Um, the. 07:25.93 succinctbill Pay grades and power and all that other stuff and they're like man if I can only level up but then there's folks like me that are kind of like looking at the next levels like you know I think those people are actually vampires like I don't know if you know that but like you know this is the lost boys and if you join that group. You know you might be and I guess I'm full of the movie memes today right? so. Anyway, you join that group. You might become a vampire so you know there's some people who are kind of like I don't know if I want to go up and that's that's all throughout archeology. So. 07:52.63 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, that sounds like a joke but that's not a joke. 07:52.92 archpodnet You being It is a. 07:56.00 Heather Um, but but Doug was saying as far as yeah. 07:57.52 succinctbill But but especially if you're at you see sit if you're at Santa Cruz where they filmed it right? like if you're in Santa Cruz you're like ah you know I've seen that movie the lost boys and it didn't end up so positive i. 08:07.43 Andrew Kinkella Totally. 08:07.71 archpodnet You be an associate professor for all of eternity. 08:08.98 Heather I could totally I can totally I can totally see um academia you know it's de for what Doug was saying. It's definitely more difficult to really uproot I mean in order to move to another university you are moving um in c r m. 08:11.26 succinctbill Oh no. 08:27.94 Heather My experience is in markets like let's say l a you know larger markets where you have a lot of companies. There is a lot more movement now if you go to us an area that's kind of um, rural. Ah, you know they they can't they don't have the luxury of opening. I mean they can open it up. But if you're trying to pull people from other areas and you're expecting them and you're you only want to hire from outside. Um, you better, be ready to pay a lot of money I mean because people have to uproot their families. So generally that doesn't happen if you have a cr m company that is. You know inside your you know exists within a you know a a lower population area. So I don't think it's as much of an issue for Crm if they did do that I could definitely see it would be an issue and since crm doesn't you know for the most part doesn't usually want to pay those. You know, big dollars. Ah I've never heard of that kind of requirement. 09:42.20 archpodnet Did we stump everybody. 09:43.76 Heather Yeah I was about to say what's going on. 09:45.56 Doug I oh see I thought my internet I thought I just lost yeah like bill I was like oh crap my internet's just cut out and I was like Heather's probably like saying some amazing things and I'm just gonna be I might come in and be like well have you guys thought about this and heather can be like that was the last 5 minutes doug 09:45.77 Andrew Kinkella That was yeah. 09:49.38 Heather Um, that's what I was thinking. Ah. 09:52.16 succinctbill And so did I Wow Ah, ah we should also. 09:57.99 Heather No. 09:59.55 succinctbill Ah, ah, ah. 10:00.47 archpodnet Yeah. 10:03.60 Andrew Kinkella I yeah. 10:05.57 archpodnet Ah, oh. 10:05.98 Heather Ah. 10:07.78 Doug Okay, cut all this and can I jump in with like my comments on Bill's comment ah so um, yeah, you guys we've mentioned this many a time the podcast but with the software we use we have like these. Ah. 10:09.88 archpodnet Um, yes, yeah, jump in with your comment. Yeah. 10:11.95 succinctbill Yes, please please. 10:12.60 Heather Yes. 10:27.39 Doug These comment things. Um well a comment, not comment things. We have a chat box that we're able to ah to put in some different comments in and Bill had dropped in that um he hopes that we won't be hiring managers who haven't ever ever been in the field. I have to say I kind of think we should like okay like never like when I say should as in like I don't think we should be hiring managers who start out like um maybe a year two ah field teching now like you can train people up and you can have people go out and um. Look at the field and understand it so I'm not saying like they should have never like been out to the field and have no clue of like realities of how things work and even like you know a couple of weeks of training or you know a lot of works do those sort of get to know your um, fellow workers lives or. Undercover boss thing where like they make the boss go and do fast food. Whatever because they've never actually done it before I think those are like valuable things but they're just like at least in crm, they're so different. The skill sets I really wish we actually had um. 11:27.83 succinctbill Ah. 11:42.53 Doug Back to what Heather was saying like if we actually did a lot more pushing where you had hierarchies in the field and you had hierarchies in management I honestly think we should have trainee managers who are paid like at the field tech level. Um and get trained up that way because it's just such There's so different skill sets that. Um, it's basically the Peter principle is you you move to an area where you're not good and you're incompetent. Um, and I I just think that like we should be training managers to be managers and we should be training field people to be field people and there should be career. Paths in both so that you can actually you know make a living doing both? Um, but I don't know I just it takes so long to master a skill. Um I mean okay, some people are like born with it and are instantly good, but a lot of cases like you know you're. If you had someone who like start out as a field tech they may be absolutely horrible at it lose their job. Um, but actually they would make like the best pi that you've ever seen. Um, so I don't know I'm kind of I'm probably picking reading too much into Bill's comment there but I'd have to say like other than like. Some occasional get to- know like the work condition sort of training I honestly think most managers shouldn't come from. Um the field tech area and. 13:08.69 succinctbill Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm gonna have to disagree with that only because of the reality that we live in because the people who are being trained to be managers in Crm um, ah if you if they don't ever go out there and dig shovel probes or look at artifacts and stuff like that for um I mean I'm saying more than 1 year then they end up being like these folks that cruise through with their ph d or m a because they finished with their b a and they did like a couple weeks with the forest service and then they marched through they got their m a and now they're getting hired. Like if if we just took them because they had an a and just gave them a you know field director spot over these people who have five 8 years of you know boots on the ground service then you end up with Peter principle like you know the most gleaming example, you could ever imagine if those people don't adapt really quick or even worse the folks who got a ph d. Who like thumb their noses the whole time at crm for their entire education. They've cruised through from 5 years old to you know, almost thirty years old with just only school and then they're being given you know a project director positions and field director positions because of their you know six week 14:10.90 Heather From it. 14:18.37 succinctbill You know, ah dissertation that they did in ah New Mexico or whatever like those are the kind of people who would end up sliding right into that management class and seriously if they if they have never been a tech if they've never been a project director. You know I agree with the the whole training system of getting folks to be managers and and. Doug you're exactly right? I wish that thing existed. But for right now you're stuck with like me and universities and I'm one of the like only people at my in my department who's done you know more than I don't know twelve months a crm ever in their entire career right? And so like you know. We just don't have that professors aren't chosen because of their experience in crm or their experience really at all and you know those are the people who are training your next generation and giving them Mas and ph d so I would hope that that stuff's changing somewhere else but we really don't have a pathway for that hybrid kind of anthropology archeology management. System yet and. 15:15.20 Heather So I I sympathize and I see where Doug's going I also agree with Bill. Um, so you know I was talking about like our company. We do have 2 different branches so you can have satisfaction. And you can find fulfillment and progression within both the project management and the field experience. We start off and branch out so we start off together people are at their they're learning together at the same time and so that gives people the opportunity to understand whether or not they. Where they want to go. Um, sometimes people go in and they think oh I want to be project manager right? off the bat and they don't realize that when they get into the fields that it isn't just digging There is so much more complexity to it and so um, we give people that opportunity to kind of experience together. And then to make an informed decision later on down the road. So. It's not just like 2 distinct career paths. It starts together and then it branches out. Um I do think that just from my perspective of working with project managers like. Seq analysts or environmental professionals that are not archeologists that have a lot to do with um the management of a project and overseeing the archeological aspects of it I think that it's absolutely essential that every single person is in the field for a considerable amount of time and. That's just for the practical reasons when you become a project manager you're writing scopes you're writing research designs and work plans unless you've been in the field you're not going to be able to do that adequately. Um, you're not going to be able to set up your team for success for the people that are actually implementing that project. Scope that you have written and that you've budgeted out the only way that they're going to be able to implement that um is if it's done correctly and you have to have a real understanding of how the field goes so you know you have to understand that when you're looking. Let's say you're writing a scope for a survey you really. 17:11.80 archpodnet M. 17:22.13 Heather You know for people that have never been out in the field. They don't know how the topography can absolutely put a huge wrench in the amount of area you can cover at 1 time or they don't even understand it doesn't even doesn't even cross their minds. It's been one of the fights I've had at the company I work at. Is not having sq professionals or project managers that are not archaeologists writing scopes and budgets for cultural work because they had no clue and one of the things is you know you should be looking at crime rates in the area. You should be looking at like actually getting a Google earth view. 17:58.70 archpodnet So. 17:59.46 Heather An Accurate one an up todate one to actually see what it is that you're serving I mean those things are are really important all the way to a work up ah research design. So you know people in the field are generally not writing research designs. They don't have the time to do it and sometimes they're not trained to do that. But in order to write a correct research design and a work plan which are Distinct. You have to have field experience or you're not going to be able to do it correctly. 18:24.71 archpodnet Okay, with that we are going to take our second break in the meantime while you're listening to these ads go over to http://arpodnet.com/members and check out our membership programs so you can get access to well these guys through our slack team and can keep the conversation going and also any bonus segments we might do. Back in a minute.