00:03.20 Doug Let's just ah, let's just get out this way this out of the way guys I don't think anyone here has ever had a good manager like like what you're describing bill of like incompetent people getting into those jobs because you're looking at like. 00:09.55 succinctbill No no. 00:18.23 Doug How you've seen Crm um work which is incompetent people get into those jobs but my point was like if you're actually hiring people for project management skills. All those things you described a cocky person with a Ph D or M a thinking they know shit and they don't with no experience. 00:37.14 succinctbill Yep, ah. 00:37.39 Doug Those are the people that make horrible managers like if you are actually hiring people on a management skill level. Those are not the people who are going to um, become managers and yeah like I think bill you've just never had a good manager. So. 00:54.94 succinctbill Nope. 00:55.12 Doug You have this picture in your ah in your mind of like of of what those like how what sort of people would get hired I should say like if you're hiring this is a problem with hiring but you should be hiring people for their management skills and anything that you've described are not good management skills and. Um, okay I know this debate. Um I realize it's not perfect, but um to Heather's comment about like having to know um your you know, know the physical limitations I kind of again feel that that's a problem with how we've always done. Crm which is not good management which in the sense is you know you use your experience and then that's how you build your bid or your project design. You've basically gone through like five or ten years and you know that like okay actually it's realistic to dig you know, only like 3 shovel pits and like. Solid rock and and you know over a day or something like that. So. That's that's like a built up um, skill set. But if you've had like good management. A good manager is someone who would actually go out and talk to the people on the coal face as it were. And be able to gain that information without ever having that experience so like um my one of my current um employers. Ah, he's he's ah so I ever knew him when he was um, an archaeologist. So I don't know if he was a really good archeologist or not but he's a much much better management and admin person. And so we do projects where like I do a lot of web development and he has never done any web development other than like some html on like a blog a while ago so he has no idea but we bid successfully for projects because essentially he comes to me and he says what is a realistic time to do this. I think that's good management is that you don't actually need to know all the skills like a manager is someone who should be able to pull special specialists from very different um areas and of course we tend to do crm and isolation. But um, it should technically be wrapped up with like um. 02:47.50 archpodnet M. 02:58.87 archpodnet Hundred percent 03:06.93 Doug Environmental and in some bigger companies. It is like you'll have a manager who and who manages both the ah you know, natural environment and the cultural environment and um, they don't they won't be an expert and sometimes not in either. But if they're able to go and talk to people. Um. And be able to gain that information and know where to look for that information. So It's a skill of being able to look and find that information to make successful projects without like killing people from Heatstroke and overwork and um. 03:37.73 archpodnet Yeah. 03:40.45 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 03:41.82 Doug Everything I mean you you guys all know we've all gone through the horror stories of bad projects and bad plans. Um, but I think a manager is someone who if they have that skill set or you train them in that skill set. They don't actually need to. 03:49.17 Andrew Kinkella Right? But it. 03:59.87 Andrew Kinkella I disagree I Just because you can You cannot have a general that's never been a foot soldier. They will make horrible decisions. You know we've all been and when and when we say like oh they'll just come in and ask the people in the field. The people in the field feel way too uncomfortable. 03:59.92 Doug Have like that physical experience of having. Ah. 04:01.60 Heather Um, yeah I. 04:07.84 Heather Um, yes. 04:08.66 succinctbill I Yelp exactly. 04:14.54 Heather Um, you know. 04:18.79 Andrew Kinkella To tell them the real truth like this play sucks. It's terrible. This is a horrible plan. We're all dying nobody ever says that you just get 1 or two kiss asses who will fake it. 04:21.58 Heather Bingo. Yeah, and so here's the other thing is that I don't know why would we want to do that. Why wouldn't We want to start people off on the same Structurey. Give people a really informed idea of of what both paths look like and then let them look and do some self-assessment and realize where do they as a person and they where do they lean where are their interests and what aligns better. With the career choice that they're going to make that is what's going to lead to satisfied professionals and I think that I Absolutely agree. Yes, we can go truck. But unfortunately I have seen way too much of people going in. Oh I Really want to know what you have to say and you know what it's It's not.. It's not um, when you. 04:57.63 Andrew Kinkella Right? right. 05:16.80 Heather Authentic, um they they go in and they ask these questions but then when it really comes down to it especially project managers. Everything is about winning the work and everything is about um, getting the the highest profit possible in an in a in a profession where the profit margins are small and so. 05:16.35 Andrew Kinkella Um, no, if. 05:28.58 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 05:29.46 archpodnet Yeah. 05:35.55 Heather You know any kind of mistake is going to impact your profit margins and so they just think oh well you know they'll just make them work a little bit harder instead of really realizing that it's It's going to in the long run is really going to impact your project. So I really think that you need to have people need to have. 05:49.63 archpodnet Right? right. 05:54.14 Heather Some kind of experience or or it's It's just not going to work even on a human a human level. 05:54.43 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah, ah yeah I just think I think heather you hit on 1 thing that really helps to you can beat the peter principle I think if you that whole self analysis thing. 05:55.90 archpodnet So okay, so that this is what we're talking about though right? yeah. 06:10.15 archpodnet And. 06:11.41 Andrew Kinkella You know where and it's hard. People are usually intrinsically not that great. But if you can really think about what are your real strengths and real weaknesses. You know what? where do you excel and and you can really put that to you know?? ah those skills like business leadership in the field Organization. You know that kind of stuff and be honest, you can you can sail through all this stuff. 06:32.15 Heather And this needs to start in the University because people are their turn. They think let's say somebody has a you know like for me personally I know I had an entrepreneurial sense I knew that I had more of a managerial um skill set and. 06:33.50 archpodnet And I think um. 06:38.47 Andrew Kinkella So true. 06:50.28 Heather If it weren't honestly for Andrew's classes I wouldn't have understood that that could have been an option for me I know that if I had gone straight to the school I ended up finishing up at um I probably would have thought okay I don't belong in this career right? Um, it would have been hard for me to envision. 07:02.93 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, so unfortunate. 07:08.49 Heather Ah, forging a path for myself when I'm a much more practical person. You know I Just I think that it needs to start with the University where people say that there's different. It's not just archeology and that's where the universities need to say Okay, how are we going to? How are we going to create programs. They gonna create successful Crm Professionals. And it's not just about Archeology. There is so much more. 07:30.15 Andrew Kinkella I Know you know you're saying the University has to actually connect with the real world. 07:30.96 archpodnet Okay, yeah. 07:34.83 succinctbill Yeah I was going to see you thought that we think I don' we just kind of respond to stuff right? Just like someone who's getting hit by a hurricane when when the Tornado hits your house. All you do is just like stand there. You don't even run for cover. You just stand there. 07:35.17 Heather Yeah. I know Youtube Bell yeah 07:50.89 archpodnet Okay, so I was in the military I took a lot of leadership classes when I was in the military because I had to I was going from e three to e four e four is like a lowlevel very low level leadership position amongst the enlisted ranks and then when I promote it to e 5 that's another level and I was actually a shift supervisor when we were on the enterprise working in the Mediterranean Night shift supervisor working on a flight deck as a 20 year old right? You can't do that without some pretty solid leadership training whether or not you listen to that training and and actually apply it as a whole other thing but you have to have that training and then. Correspondingly in the civil air patrol I've gone through incident command training I've gone through all the different steps leading up to incident command through civil air patrol and understanding those positions and in fact, we just had a search and rescue just the other day and seeing that seeing that whole system play out. It's a very. Analogous to pretty much every job right? except most jobs and professions. Do not follow the things that they probably should bringing all of this stuff together because a you guys are right? Universities are the gatekeepers for who gets into Crm right now because it is a requirement to have that degree so that should be the first place that you're at least. Exposed to the different career tracks that you can go down and I don't think it's one or the other field or managerial I think there's there's obviously you know a number of tracks you can go down. Those are the 2 big ones. But I think that we need to acknowledge the fact that there are different positions between. You know, being in the field and and being in say managerial positions and there's a lot of different managerial positions in that hierarchy Andrew you said that a general should understand what being a troop is like because they're not going to understand when they say. You know the ramifications of saying hey take that bridge and 50 people are going to die in the first five minutes right they need to understand the ramifications of that decision. Otherwise they don't truly get it. But I don't really believe that at the generals level and and at certain levels I think that I think Doug said it. 09:45.47 Andrew Kinkella Yes, yes. 09:57.84 archpodnet You don't actually in some cases have to fully have experienced everything that your people underneath you are actually having to do just like Doug said about his manager and and I'm talking about certain positions if you're a crew chief you absolutely have to have been a field tech right? You can't hire a crew chief from Starbucks. Because they were a shift manager. They're not going to understand how to get the job done right? Maybe even a field director a field director probably should have come up through the ranks of archeology. But you start getting into project manager you start getting into business developer which is a position at companies probably like heathers and and that's that's tangent. That's a lateral to like. Principal investigator like a business developer should have an Mba a business developer should be something that somebody who knows how to negotiate contracts can talk to the people under them and say what is the timeframe this is going to take and get an and get an accurate estimate to be able to bid on projects and win work. This is a business. This isn't you know this isn't some. We're doing this to write papers. Although we should be but this is a business and in some cases you have to hire the right people in those positions and they may not come from the bottom. 10:58.62 Heather But how about. Okay, what 1 1 thing and I I agree with you in in some ways. But what about there's 1 element That's really important and that's the research design. How does somebody who's not an archeologist who's not a practicing archeologist. Write a proper research design because that's not something that field people do got something that project manager does in serum. 11:27.24 archpodnet Right? right. 11:30.78 Doug So okay, a couple of comments. Um 1 um, come about argue the point. Um, we actually don't have our generals be field troops like we literally so in the United States there are 3 academies for the officers. Um, and you've. 11:45.94 Heather And. 11:50.47 Doug Like most people are don't who make the rank of general were not in the listed. They were not foot soldiers um vast majority I know probably ninety ninety five percent of all our generals um definitely were not foot soldiers or admirals or um I don't know what of. 12:08.44 archpodnet Yeah, you're right. 12:10.10 Doug Wing commanders or whatever wherever branch of of of a military you're in um, that we do not do that now and um, yeah I mean there's that we literally train all of our officers. Um for ah. 12:22.10 Heather There's a reason for that. 12:26.91 Doug Not all of our officers but most of them are trained they jump ahead. They're they're they're put into a different sort of training than what you do for? Um, your canon fodder and I I ah go back and just say like everything you guys have described all these problems is bad management and also. Bad organization. So I know I get your point Heather like um, it's managers who currently now write ah projects designs. Um, but that's because that's how we've always done crm. We've always had like sorry research design. 12:55.29 Heather Not project design research design. There's very different. There's a difference between a work plan and a race design. Okay I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Yeah. 13:04.88 Doug Yes, sorry yeah, sorry um, but also like that's that in itself is a skill set and unfortunately like Sirra M is just too small of companies. But you you probably should have like that's that's a different skill set as well For management. Um, they just get put in there because you're. You're in the office and that's what it's thought. But like again, um I I'm just thinking this everything. Everything you guys are saying just sounds like bad horrible management to me as opposed to a reason why. 13:31.70 Heather Um, pay. 13:38.53 Doug You should start out as a field tech and then follow Peter's principle until you become um, either a pi or or you know how many people are not going to make it there I know what you guys are saying. But. 13:46.63 Heather Are you saying are you are you saying then that we should have non archeologists. Um, as project managers of archeology I First of all I I think that that that is a problem because and I've seen this happen I see it happen all the time. Ah. 14:04.30 Andrew Kinkella And me too. 14:06.19 Heather Larger environmental companies that have a cultural have a cultural component or a cultural practice underneath the umbrella of an environmental company. Try to do this all the time and it doesn't work and I don't understand why don't why aren't we I understand what you're saying Doug. But why aren't we then. Going out and trying to and I've said this on the podcast before why aren't we trying to attract not just people that are up. Um that are attracted to the field aspect of archeology. Why aren't we trying to pull people in from the university attracting. Different types of people people that have that more of a managerial tendency and then also people that are field oriented so that we're bringing people up still with a theoretical understanding still within the milieu of archeology but are able to take these different trajectories. The last thing I want. Is I want a project manager who's focused on project management which in our society That's what we're doing now we are customizing education to very small niches and so now we're going to have somebody who's a project manager coming in and managing an archeology project which I think is really not a good idea. I think we need to have specific trained archeologists that are then ah pushed into the project management concept now as far as military goes I understand what you're saying about the military but you know my son is ROtc um and for the military candidate. He had a choice to go either west point. Or rotwoc and he picked rotc. The reason why was because he specifically said that he wanted to have that experience from the enlisted so in rotcprograms you part of your cadre and the people that are teaching you are people that are non-commissioned officers that came up through the enlisted ranks and I think that that. Definitely it. It makes a much better leader and that is why and I'll I'll just you know nothing against the academies because I'm very supportive of that and you know I would have been supportive if my son had decided to go to west point. But it is very um, it's a very different leader. Enlisted when they have an otc lieutenant come in versus a lieutenant who comes in from from an academy they know they're going to get a different kind of leader and they prefer the r otc leader because of the experience that they have with the enlisted boots on the ground rank. And when you're going through a four year you R otc um experience you are treated like an enlisted the entire time. 16:40.50 Doug So just to to answer because we're running out time just answer wanted questions. Ah, one of Heather's questions about like why we don't bring people over. Um, it's because like pretty much all of our leadership has hit the Peter Principle um like if you think about like the the only qualification or the only thing that makes you a leader in crm. Okay, this has changed a lot but it used to be the only thing that made you like in charge was you wouldn't start your own company. But that didn't necessarily make you a leader it just meant you could win work enough to keep going. Um and so we don't actually have any sort of leadership training courses or um, ah cadets or like even our universities. Um our universities don't. 17:25.56 Heather That he's changed. 17:31.88 Doug Train people to be leaders in cr m or leaders in anything. so so I I have to say sorry Heather I um I'm hearing you did am I cutting you off? Sorry yeah. 17:33.25 Heather That needs to change. Yep that needs to change. Yeah, no, no I'm just saying I agree with you that needs to change. We need to change all the way back to the university. 17:51.25 Doug Or even even I don't know I would say we don't we could go outside the University Um, because that brings in a lot of stuff as well. But like the the reason like we don't bring in people and don't look at management as its own skill set is because that's how we've always done it and we don't actually have. 17:52.44 archpodnet All right. 17:53.15 Heather What they're teaching. 17:57.63 succinctbill Yeah. 18:11.70 Doug Yeah i' probably never gonna get another job in archeology after like if anyone's listened to this podcast by basically just saying everyone shit. Um, there are some good leaders out there. Um, but like honestly like we are crm Archaeologists and the people in management. 18:18.58 archpodnet Um. 18:28.66 Doug Don't think that way and usually it's because you know that's not what they've been trained and they haven't We don't actually have a lot of people that look strategically um about or move outside of our how we've always done things. So um, ah yeah. 18:41.27 archpodnet Um, well hold on. Well. 18:41.28 Heather We're in the same but we're talking the same language here, you're just talking about it is now and I'm talking about the way it could be but we're both saying the same thing. Yeah. 18:48.10 archpodnet Okay, with with that we need to wrap up this podcast and I think we're going to have ah I don't think we are going to have a segment four bonus content for members of the archeology podcast network we're going to continue talking about this just for a quick segment. Maybe not quick. Hopefully it's quick cause we are lives but we're gonna do that if you want to hear this go to http://arkpodnett.comforward/membersand you can join us. It's seven ninety nine a month or I think you get 25% off if you do it annually which is a pretty good deal and you can hear this on your member pages if you already are a member. 19:07.93 Heather Well. 19:25.18 archpodnet You can continue talking about this on the slack team most of our well some of our hosts are over there and I think some of them are and we'll just continue to talk about this problem because there's a lot to talk about so with that we will see you guys next week all right I'm going to keep this rolling for the outro so we have it in this recording. And then we'll flip over and do another quick discussion about this stand by where is it? Okay, thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 19:58.32 Heather Ah, tired 1 19:59.72 Andrew Kinkella See you guys next time. 20:01.24 succinctbill Goodbye. 20:01.35 Doug Yeah, so I had actually said my goodbye before Chris started I realized I was muted. Um, so this is just an awkward because now I have to do like now I have to do the delayed one I'm just gonna drag this out for a while. 20:08.33 Heather Um, yeah. 20:09.62 archpodnet Ah, that's how this all started. 20:10.74 succinctbill The. 20:18.18 succinctbill If. 20:18.64 Doug Um, but yeah Chris I was trying to be something do something different and say you know my my line before you got started. Um but now now I'm just going to ramble on for like a good like three four minutes 20:26.62 succinctbill Ah. 20:27.67 archpodnet It's oh my God know's no no I'm gonna this is where the thiss is where the music fades up whoever's editing this the music fades here and then and then we we exit goodbye. Ah. 20:34.48 Doug Like you guys all have time to stick around right. 20:41.10 succinctbill Ah.