00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the bonus segment for cr podcast episode 237 thanks for being a member of the archeology podcast member and yeah I'm just this is unedited pretty much. But thanks for being a member of the archeology podcast network. We really appreciate it. We're trying to get to a thousand members sooner rather than later that's kind of an inflection point so please share this with family and friends. We're working on a referral program for members as well. So we can give you some benefits if you have suggestions for that email me chris@http://archaeologypocastnetwork.comorhitusupintheslackteamforyourmembershippages. anyway here we go we're continuing this discussion on the peter principle something I was thinking about during the whole recording as we were talking about this. We talked about a number of times hiring outside people to to come in and I want to turn that hiring outside people to come in as managers. Not. On its head a little bit not as hiring people from other fields to come in to to work as managers which we did kind of talk about but I feel like if we had the ability in smaller firms. This is why they end up promoting from within because they don't have this ability. They're looking at a person right there that says well I like this you know guy or girl. Let's just promote them and see if see how they do right? with? no training whatsoever. But oh Jesus that was bad. Um, but if we do actually publish or publicize these positions that we have and the people within our own companies. See that hey they're hiring for ah for a project manager here is the skillset required. There are people out there that really do try to improve themselves and maybe within the company they're at right now there is no room for advancement right now for whatever reason there's just all the holes are filled. There's no room for advancement but they're paying attention. There may be even taking some outside leadership courses. They're learning new skills. They're they're improving their resume but they just have nowhere to go within the company they're at through no fault of that company. There's just no expansion capability right now if other companies would just seek outside and and look at that. Not only do you bring in somebody. That actually is trying to build those skills and abilities not saying the people working for you right now aren't but maybe they're not but you bring in somebody who has fresh perspective they work somewhere else. They've worked for another company. They've worked for other companies entirely and. And and they and they have actually worked on these skills that you are actually looking for rather than just doing a field promotion and kind of hoping for the best you know what? I mean unless you've got a really solid training program which most companies do not to give people that training that they're going to need in their new position. But I don't know I'm just thinking we we need. 02:39.79 archpodnet Need some fresh perspective like that you know and and we need to understand that people have different desires and career goals. Anyway, as we have mentioned and I was just I keep thinking of Star Trek of all things Star Trek Really got it right? You got your blue shirts your red shirts your yellow shirts. We kind of just need that we we had that again when I was in the navy. Was a brown shirt when I first started I was on the on the ah on the enterprise go go figure but because I was part of the line division. Everybody starts in the line division. Regardless what your specialty is and then I became a green shirt which is more of a technician I was an avionics technician and then at some point in time I had like a checkered shirt because I was a. I was a troubleshootter so that is a very specific role and a track that you're going through within there and everybody knows it. Everybody knows what your goal and focus is when you're identified that Way. So I don't know something I was thinking about comments on that doug I think your hands up. 03:37.40 archpodnet You're muted doug. 03:38.94 Doug Thank you Chris man with the out show last time and then starting this I'm I'm just not doing so well. Um I think that's pretty good. Um aspirations I think what makes it difficult is. 03:40.83 Heather The. 03:54.41 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 03:58.43 Doug When you're bringing people in is you're not like to be honest in anything and hiring a certain level. What what makes the difference is not the skills. It's not the um, okay, well maybe this is a skill.. It's not the technical skills. It's not the leadership or the different knowledge or the different ideas that come in. Um, that makes a difference.. It's like the person's personality like that's that's that's why a lot of people like promote in because you have a known commodity and you know the person's relatively not asshole. 04:19.89 Heather Watching. 04:33.59 archpodnet Relatively? ah. 04:33.82 Doug Or maybe like they're an asshole but you get used to it. Yeah well you know like we we all occasionally have that yeah that that friend we have that friend who people are like you know that you're like yeah, he's an asshole but you get used to it. Um, and so like there's that but like. 04:38.69 archpodnet Their brand of assholery. 04:51.53 Heather Kind of like Andrew. 04:53.47 Doug To be honest, wow man Andrew I. 04:53.70 archpodnet Kind of like Wow wow. 04:54.56 Andrew Kinkella You What are you trying to say look you know you know what I've learned um, learned from this is I get a gold shirt. Okay, that's all I've learned. Okay. 04:58.51 succinctbill Wowa wo wa. 04:59.38 Heather Um. 05:03.77 archpodnet Ah. 05:05.89 Doug Well Andrew this is like just like pick on Andrew episode. 05:09.85 Heather Um. 05:10.49 Andrew Kinkella I I don't I don't care. It's just I'm right and the rest of you fools are wrong. So. 05:14.43 archpodnet Indeed. 05:15.82 Doug So like yeah if you were hiring Andrew who who thinks he's right and and everyone else is wrong. That's gonna be that's gonna ruin a lot relationships. So so don't hire your andrews. It's it's your Andrews that are going to really ruin the ah the ability to hire externally? Um, but yeah, sorry ah. 05:33.11 Andrew Kinkella It's right look I rule with an iron heel. Okay, my projects are awesome because they fear me. 05:38.39 Doug Ah, yeah, so I would say is like um I'll just wrap this up and say yeah external hiring I'm all for it. Um, but honestly the only skill that really matters in external hiring um is like not being an asshole honestly Like. Um, that if we like did more hiring on people not being assholes like organizations would work a lot better. 06:03.96 Andrew Kinkella And you know what I do want to add 1 thing sort of in seriousness we we seem to talk kind of like oh well, there's people who work in the field versus people who work kind of in the office and you know what I want I want it all and actually you can get it in hiring like I've done a lot of different hiring in a lot of different situations and. 06:04.41 archpodnet Indeed. 06:18.37 Heather Um, yes, yeah. 06:18.88 archpodnet Um, me. 06:23.68 Andrew Kinkella There's and when enough people want the job you can find people who are that rock Star who do it all you know So I don't think we have to narrow our hiring or narrow what we look for. We look for the the whole person and you can get them. 06:26.56 Heather Um, yeah. 06:26.73 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 06:34.81 archpodnet Yeah heather. 06:35.64 Heather Yeah I I agree and I'm not saying I'm one of those. Um, but I'm saying that in it even in my position I get to do I do get to do all of it and um I really you know I think it is possible. Ah I'm fortunate. With where I work that I can do that and I get to call those shots but I think one of the thing is and I know it's going to take a lot of work but we need to work it all the way back and I agree with Bill Bill was making some comments on the side he was saying like you know the problem is is that you know in in the universities are the professors even equipped. To be able to teach these leadership and business skills probably not but that's where the universities need to be collaborating and we need to have interdisciplinary teaching where we're we're we're working with the business. You know the business side the business department department and we're um, doing kind of an interdisciplinary. 07:14.83 archpodnet Now. 07:20.62 archpodnet 4 07:29.53 Heather Approach and then the other thing is from the company side is that the the path forward needs to be transparent though. You know we talk a lot about people managers in inerm and the fact that um, you know people are not getting paid enough. Well the control happens when transparency is not there. So We talk about paid transparency. But I think even more so we need transparency in job Description. We need to have this is your career set you know and it's not gonna be exact but you need at least to have something written down so you know where you're going and you know what kind of skills you need to attain and to build. In your skill set in order to move on to whatever it is that you want to do or stay where you want where you are right now but we need to be transparent. We can't just be like I get the no hayhale policy. Ah I have a whole other thought on that because my company has this no ahole policy and. 08:12.90 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:25.72 Heather My thought is and I'm not saying that my company's guilty of this but my thought is if you have a quote unquote no a whole policy. You have a a whole problem if you have to say you have no a whole policy. You likely have an able problem but that's a whole other side. Um, but I I do think it it needs to be. 08:41.47 Andrew Kinkella It's an excellent point. 08:44.79 Heather Not just this feel which I think is absolutely important Doug I I definitely think is important but we need to these to be more complex than that more human beings and worse're so studyers of human beings and we should be acknowledging that there's complexity and hiring. There's complexity and career advancement and we need to be teaching people. How to prepare? Um, ah, archaeologists for that complexity. 09:08.74 archpodnet I I saw something the other day doug real quick real quick real quick on on heather thing and if you if you meet an asshole in the morning you take care of it then you go about the rest of your day if you meet assholes all day you're the Asshole Doug go. 09:08.93 Doug So mine's just like a really snide yet. Mines is a oh. 09:24.45 Heather Um, yeah. 09:25.98 Andrew Kinkella All I tell my students that all the time I If you don't think there's an asshole on the project. It's because it's you. 09:39.27 Doug So mine mine was just a really snide comment to be like when Heather was like you know, ah professors probably don't have those skills I was just going to say like man probably right? There is the most optimistic word I mean I've never heard. Probably used so optimistically in my entire life. 09:55.32 Heather Yeah, well I well you know why because we have 2 professors that that do have those skills and that's why I'm saying that because I'm just on a I don't want to insult ah Bill and Andrew not because they're on the podcast but because. 09:56.77 succinctbill Ah. 10:13.27 Heather They truly do have those skills so that does exist. It's just unfortunately across the board. Not all that common. 10:18.40 Doug Way. Ah. 10:18.83 succinctbill Yeah. 10:19.94 Andrew Kinkella I'm just insulted because you didn't tell me how awesome I was enough sorry I. 10:22.29 Heather Um I have failed this podcast. 10:22.46 Doug Ah, yeah, as this episode was like insult Andrew I thought that's all we're doing is insulting Andrew and. 10:23.57 succinctbill Ah, ah you know I I I I do think that we should I do think that we should focus on the you know the outside the academia training. 10:30.51 Andrew Kinkella That's right, That's right just I'm not crying. You're crying. Yeah. 10:41.71 succinctbill Because like seriously there's there's not really incentive to do what anyone is talking about here. There's no motivation and you know we we work in these positions for 3040 years right so there's it would take. Decades to even create a department that was full of a bunch of people with crm um experience that were oriented towards preparing people for the field and all that stuff. So if you really wanted to make change right now then you'd want to try to build that training program through several different companies. You know i've. Posted stuff about how we could just sidetrack field school and just have these kind of workplace training systems. You know folks are trying to get ah um, internships and other stuff out there and like I you know I just feel really confident about what you know the industry is going to have to create the system to train the people that the industry needs and um. 11:17.49 Heather Yep. 11:32.92 succinctbill I Don't say that you should totally forget academia because as long as we require college degrees to do archeology. You're going to have to have some connection with academia but I'm just saying I mean we'll all be long gone before there's a ah you know R One University that's oriented towards training people for. 11:50.39 Heather I agree but I I'm optimistic and I think we have to keep pounding our fists and saying and starting with people like yourself bill and trying to revamp and at least trying to I don't want to give up on the twenty years from now because 20 years from now comes fast. 11:50.87 succinctbill CR m 11:52.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 12:10.19 Heather And I think it it it could happen and part of it is is that we have to start attracting people different kinds of people to archeology not just the ones that we're attracting now and because yeah, we're doomed if we do. 12:16.55 archpodnet Yeah. 12:18.77 succinctbill Yeah, it's it's the university hiring system. That's the thing right? like people people who are already professors now are going to look at the things that they know and remember the things that got them there and value the values that got them that position rather than the actual values that the world needs. And so that's why I'm saying that you know work with the people you've got try to find a couple allies in industry but it is exceptionally hard for someone who has any level of experience more than a few years to get hired or accepted by academia because the the things that people are looking for for these tenure track jobs. Are in no way connected at all to the actual you know market reality or the skills that anyone actually needs to make it in the United States and 13:05.77 Doug Um, just to add. That's that's mostly universal I say mostly universal. It's just the Uk included. Yeah, it's only 2 countries in the world right? Um, but yeah, like it's this I'm like I'm I'm in the process of writing a piece. Um that obviously is just. Going to be like this this podcast and just flame everyone and say it's horrible. But um, it's it's one of these things like a lot of people like it's a couple of our one archeology department got closed down another one's been shrunk. Everyone's freaking out. Um, and. There people are are like oh you know what? so in my job working for fame which is you know the ara of um Uk basically people are like why aren't you guys more concerned like all your archaeologists come from university and. To be honest, like we it doesn't really affect us like so in the United States it affects in the sense of secretary of interior rules. But like they're not training anyone and like what we would have to do to change the entire system. It's not even possible like. The Uk is even more centralized where they have a thing called the ref and the ah re and they they keep changing the name and it's just been changed to something else where like you have to show they they basically review it's almost like a tenure review every like 5 years for every member of staff and determines like a lot of funding and. That is set by the government like you'd have to change it for not just our archeology. You have to change that entire system which inensitifizes publishing papers only papers and only on certain topics. Um, so actually like a lot of local archeology gets sort of search shifted because they they don't consider it international world leading. Um, but you'd have to like basically get the entire government to change how they fund all universities which are I think there's only like one private university in the uk so it's um, all state has some sort of control. It's just like a massive problem. It was so much easier if we actually just like left universities behind. And we also probably help a lot of our diversity issues as well. Like we only get the students that we get out of universities and those students are not diverse. Um well okay I realized also this is like a broad statement I'm saying not diverse in the u k I know like Andrew you working with um. 15:20.61 archpodnet Yeah. 15:21.74 succinctbill You? Yep yeah. 15:37.78 Doug Ah, where you do, you're going to have a much more diverse. Um student body than in general but like yours unfortunately is the exception because there's only a couple of programs like yours. Everyone else is doing you know r 1 research universities which um. 15:39.80 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah I do yeah. 15:55.52 Doug Yeah, not diverse I'll leave it there I'm done guys. Sorry my rant went. 15:56.40 archpodnet Yeah, all right guys all right? So I think we will just leave it there. Thanks everybody for sticking around for a fourth segment. Thank you to our listeners for being members. We Really appreciate this please share this out wherever you well not this segment because you can't but. Please share this podcast out wherever you find it if you find it valuable and helpful and send us suggestions for ah topics for the podcast and if maybe we'll even just bring you On. We'll bring anybody on and let them talk and rant about Crm for a little while so and sometimes when we do that you just become ah a co-host too. Um Hashtag Andrew so. 16:33.95 Heather Um, and me that the other I started to. 16:35.76 archpodnet Anyway, ah, and and Heather and Heather that's right, that's right? So anyway. Thanks everybody and we'll see you next time. 16:35.86 succinctbill Ah, ah. 16:36.34 Andrew Kinkella Fat You know.