00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is Heather in California Andrew in wait for it California and Bill also in California. 00:03.92 Heather Hi everyone. So. 00:09.16 Andrew Kinkella Um, get a hello everybody. 00:14.37 succinctbill Yes, good morning. But where are you? That's the question where are you today? ah. 00:35.94 archpodnet Ah I know today I am in seaside organ lovely seaside organ. It's a a town just south of Astoria between Canon Beach and asstoria and those canon beach and asstoria are 2 towns. You may know if you're fans of the movie goonies. So. 00:53.19 succinctbill Ah I'm also and of just Oregon Coast so I know that town too. 01:06.50 Heather Ah, you know there's a new movie goonies I think it has a guy. There's a a guy in it that hasn't done anything ever since and that he's in a movie. 01:14.20 archpodnet Both filmed in those locations? Yes, yeah. 01:40.76 Heather My son said you have to go see this. It's called everything everyone all at once and he's in it I'll get the name of the anyway it was really good. Very weird sci-fi movie. It was one of those things that you think you're It's like a dream. You know if you ever had those dreams where they make complete total sense in your dream. 01:47.30 archpodnet Ah. Okay, ah. 01:49.64 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 01:45.65 succinctbill Um, cool. 02:13.00 archpodnet Oh. 01:59.30 succinctbill Um, ah. 02:20.20 Heather And they're so weird. But then you wake up and you can't remember everything. That's this moving. That's good. 02:16.47 succinctbill Wow. 02:21.76 Andrew Kinkella You know I think I think it might be the guy who played short round in Indiana Jones like he was in goonies and Indiana Jones and that's it I think it's that guy the kid. Yeah yeah. 02:36.50 archpodnet Northha. 02:26.39 succinctbill Ah, okay, okay, okay. 02:46.66 archpodnet Nice, Nice, yeah, nice all right? Well speaking of media that makes no sense. Let's talk about archeology books. Ah. 02:46.50 Heather It is the Asian Yeahp that's him? Yep yeah. 03:03.15 succinctbill I Write those and come on. Ah. 03:14.12 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 03:25.66 archpodnet Ah I know so as you guys know we have been as the listeners know we have been alternating topics and this week it's bills turned so Bill. Let's ah, let's have your topic and your your thoughts behind why you wanted to do this. 03:34.95 succinctbill so yeah sure ah so I'll introduce the topic None and then my thoughts behind it. Um, but the topic that I want to talk about today after these 240 episodes we still have never talked about the stuff we're reading right. 04:27.70 archpodnet Let's turn up. 04:12.85 succinctbill And as archaeologists we spend a lot of time reading. That's pretty much the whole job is like ah reading and writing and then on the side you do some excavation I mean he's been like I don't know I I spent hours and hours reading I ended up doing well because I learned how to speed read when I was ah um. Undergrad So that really helps me be able to skim a lot of books and a lot of stuff but these are books that I actually read for real and the reason why I thought about it is because I ah I have classes and as I you know came up through Archeology. We just had to do a lot of reading. 05:16.78 archpodnet Me. 05:24.45 succinctbill I mean whether it was going to the library and having to get I don't know if you all remember this but you used to have to go to the library and there would be this folder of these reserves for each week and there were all these articles that the professor was too cheap to actually print off on paper or the paper would have taken more than your tuition's worth to print it all. 05:52.76 archpodnet Um, ah. 05:48.30 Heather Oh yeah. 05:58.69 succinctbill And so they outsource it all to you to print it or if you're cheap like me, you can just sit there and skim the article and ah write down notes and have enough for you to be able to show up to class knowledgeable So I remember those reserves right? and you would show up to the library front desk tell them the class. 06:38.76 archpodnet Yeah. 06:38.43 succinctbill They'd give you this massive disheartening pamphlet of articles that you have to look through and then sometimes we had to buy books. Ah, definitely everybody understands about the book situation where back in the None century when we were buying books for college. 07:11.32 Andrew Kinkella Um. 07:09.99 succinctbill They were still in the double digits and now you look online for the books that they want your student to read or to buy and it's like None and you're shaking your head like this person is never going to touch this thing after this day. Why would you ever force them to buy a $200 book you know, but it's all about you know making money right? so. 07:40.50 Heather Yeah. 07:52.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 07:50.14 Heather It might. 07:48.79 succinctbill Ah I still get all the reserves and everything. But now we can get them on Pdf and put them online for the students to read nevertheless you still have to read a lot and so the question are what are the books that people are reading that are impactful that changed our careers and it made us think really about what we were doing. 08:19.76 archpodnet Um. 08:28.47 succinctbill So that's what I want to talk about today. What are the the impact the most impactful books that we've read in our career right? The books that shaped our career so who wants to go None But. 08:55.36 Heather Me. 09:04.22 archpodnet Well, you know what? I think I I don't I don't I didn't put a lot of books on this list and I'll tell you why because I in fact, bill some of the ones that you put on here would are books that I have read as well and I think. I Think really did influence my thinking but what I really think of books that shaped my career I took that to heart because I want to know you know things that either either ignited my passion for something or or changed the way I thought about something that's kind of how I thought about that and I only put two things down because to be honest. 09:49.94 Heather O. 10:10.22 archpodnet I'm not doing a whole lot of crm archeology anymore and I've had some books that have influenced like that decision ultimately and one of the ones that I could think about was Brian Fagin's 2003 before California um, and yeah and and Brian Fagin writes for I mean he he writes some. 10:17.85 succinctbill Yeah, it's a good book. 10:31.50 Heather Yep, it's at my list. 10:28.46 Andrew Kinkella Yep, no. 10:49.52 archpodnet You know in-depth stuff. Well-researched things but it's it's more written for a popular audience and being able to you know in 2003 in fact I didn't read this in 2003 I I read it years later when I when I was in Nevada I think it was you know two thousand and ten twelve something like that when I actually read it. So by then I was out of my master's degree and you know I read all the technical stuff. You know, read all the Tom King books and trigger and you know all those things and I'm like yeah okay these are tools that I need to be an archeologist but when I read this book I'm like. Oh so archeology can be written so people can actually understand it and you can communicate to the wider public and I think that is actually what sort of triggered my want to present archeology in a different way and since I'm not like a super strong writer and I can't do anything like Brian Fagan can um not a not a good writer in that sense. Anyway, um I decided to start podcasting and podcasting was you know my outlet and my way to bring archeology to a wider community that that I felt I could be good at and I think this book was ah was definitely an impetus for that. 12:57.74 Heather And yeah I I kind of went the same direction for me. Actually it's it's interesting. So my dad's a physicist and when I was young and into archaeology his answer to everything was throw a book at you and it was usually he was a major used book person so you would get used books. 13:33.88 archpodnet Ah, m. 13:36.90 Heather Use textbooks and that's what as kids he would throw. He would just say hey read this if you're still interested in it then we'll talk and he gave me Bri and this is me growing up in Chicago so he found a bunch of Brian Fagin books little did I know where it would take me. 13:51.68 archpodnet That's awesome. Yeah. 14:09.84 archpodnet M. 14:05.20 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 14:16.46 Heather But it definitely um, lit a fire for me. It made me and this is like I'm 101112 reading Brian Fagan books and they were readable to me and they actually and they excited me now you could say that's a commentary on me being a strange young person. 14:37.78 archpodnet That's amazing. 14:45.18 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 14:54.68 Heather Or the fact that Brian Fagin is extremely readable and understandable. But so and and so for me I just I love this topic. Um I have a few other books sprinkle as our talk goes. But for me I kind of looked at. What were the ones that were really fun for me to read what were the ones that I still pick up as a professional to me those are the ones that totally make a difference in my life and there are ones that I read when I was in school that I still pick up as a professional. Um. 15:34.58 archpodnet Um. 15:26.26 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, yeah. 15:43.62 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 15:29.89 succinctbill Yeah. 16:04.90 Heather I'll start with the first one that to me was other than the Brian Fagin that was really fun for me in graduate school to read and that was cows picks pigs wars and witches by Marvin Harris I loved that book to me that was a lot of fun to read. That's not an archeology book. But. 16:46.58 archpodnet Oh. 16:42.26 Heather More of a culture anthropology book. But that was kind of a fun book for me I I enjoyed that one. Um, it kind of just talks about why things are the way they are from his perspective whether that's right or wrong, but it was.. It's a fun book to read if your professor has you read it. It. At least, it's one of those books that you're not sitting having a hard time getting through. So. 17:27.96 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, that's what's 1 thing just real quick and then I'll get on to you Andrew is that's the thing that I think really has helped shape me too is those really. 17:23.14 Andrew Kinkella Print it sure. 17:55.64 archpodnet Readable fun books. You know like I said there's all the tool books that we just need to have on the shelf so we can refer back to and go to but I don't know if they necessarily shaped how I think as an archaeologist and how I think about interacting with you know, other people that are not archaeologists and that's what I again, that's what I like about the Brian Faggin books in any book that. 18:21.46 Heather Yes, true. 18:34.90 archpodnet You know, kind of does that Andrew. 18:25.34 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, sure you know as a direct disciple of Brian Fagin you know I took Brian Fagin as a freshman my first year. Um I just I have nothing but good things to say about the guy and why aren't there more Brian fagins out there. You know that's that's what we need in archeology. So desperately. 18:38.40 Heather E. 18:48.63 succinctbill My papa. 19:05.16 Andrew Kinkella And honestly people like us on this podcast are trying to be Brian Fagin's but we're we're a very small group unfortunately, ah anyway yeah with Brian Fagan with his intro class that I took I'm going with archeology a brief introduction by Brian Fagan ah it was the None edition at the time. 19:09.11 succinctbill Yeah. 19:42.10 archpodnet Nice. 19:27.29 succinctbill Oh yeah, okay. 19:43.74 Andrew Kinkella And it was small and I read it and I could envision myself carrying this book because it was physically small like in my backpack in the Jungle somewhere you know I'm like here here I am I'm an archeologist with this book and I have it just in case you know and even though it's. 20:09.86 Heather Yeah, yes, yeah. 20:22.66 Andrew Kinkella Just the textbook. Um I still look back to that sometimes and it's not because I need to relearn archeology. It's almost need because I need to re-energize my soul. You know I look at it and I remember and I go Yeah, this is what it's all about. 21:01.46 archpodnet Nice, nice. 20:58.00 Heather You know Brian Bacon's so good at writing about those um topics that come up that people use as kind of an impetus behind theory and he makes them so much easier to understand and. 21:24.40 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 21:36.20 Heather And he's so good I mean he is so prolific. It's crazy. In fact, show you show you? how prolific he is. He has written So as a sailor everywhere you go. There's these coastal cruising guides or there's these cruising guides that you really should have because they give you. 21:35.22 Andrew Kinkella Um, oh yeah, he's a machine. 22:13.52 Heather Insight for sailing in that one specific area and he has written the bible for California like Coastal California Central Coast California all the way down to baha California and so when I got into the sailing community. 22:35.46 archpodnet Cheese. Wow. 22:27.68 Andrew Kinkella Um, yep. 22:50.00 Heather People are like oh my gosh you have to get this book. This is the bible for sailing in the area and I'm like oh okay, so they give they tell me the name I look it up and it has Brian Faken I'm like oh that must be a mistake that's not the one. It must be yeah the algorithms in my. 22:47.43 succinctbill Ah. 23:19.28 archpodnet Or or a different one. 23:10.40 Andrew Kinkella Ah, right. 23:26.22 Heather My computer are bringing up Brian Fagan that can't be right and sure enough that's right? So that's how prolific he's actually successful in other areas outside of archeology. But yeah, he's amazing. 23:17.15 succinctbill Her. 23:48.76 archpodnet Nice. 23:37.78 Andrew Kinkella Yet you know I'll throw ah just because the brian fragin topic I'll throw one more and then let's you know I guess open it up again. Um I'm going with Brian Fagin's Lord and faro which is recent I believe it's maybe 2015 or so 2016 yeah so what he does is um. 24:09.38 archpodnet So m. 23:54.91 succinctbill Oh oh. 24:08.86 Heather Oh I haven't read that. 24:16.20 Andrew Kinkella It's the story of ah King tut juxtaposed against Lord carnarvin and they go back and forth in time chapter by chapter. It's excellent because it it just talks about the person it shows how many similarities between the 2 people. It's it's amazing. Such a good piece. But. 24:34.12 archpodnet No. 24:29.78 Heather Um, ah yeah. 24:43.98 Heather Oh. 24:49.62 Andrew Kinkella It influenced me because I had Brian Fagan come and talk to my egyptology class and when he was standing there talking like in my class you know and I intro him and stuff I had that that moment where I'm like oh my god I kind of am Bri and Fagan I think I think I made it I think I made it. 25:12.46 Heather So cool. 25:24.18 Heather Um, yeah. 25:27.90 Andrew Kinkella You know like and it was just again one of these like super important moments to my soul. 25:40.58 Heather 1 little bit of tree trivia just to kind of I mean even I don't know if this is why you wrote it. But do you know the connection of lord carnarvin to a well-known Tv series that's now a movie right now down to nabby right. 26:00.70 Andrew Kinkella Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure we say down now. Yeah, that's yeah. 26:00.23 succinctbill What? what? what. 26:18.10 Heather Yeah, nabby doubt Nabby so that high clear high clear castle is lord carnarvin's castle. So if you were to go to down to nabbey or the real down to nabby high clear castle. They have a king tut exhibit in in their basement. Yeah yeah. 26:53.36 archpodnet Me. 26:42.60 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, like in the basement I know Yeah, no those yeah those those exterior shots that's that's lord carnarvin's house. 26:40.11 succinctbill And what walk show that on that would be something that would actually make me want to watch Downton Abbey 26:56.84 Heather Yeah, but. So you should.. It's a great I'm a huge doubt Nabby fan. But yeah, yep. 27:23.18 archpodnet Wow. 27:10.63 succinctbill And well the Brian Fagan that I'll throw on the fire is ah ancient None because that was one that I remember we had for many of my undergrad. Well one of my undergrad classes native american archeology and I read all of the chapters including the ones that we didn't even have to read because we didn't have. 27:24.30 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 27:48.90 succinctbill Ah, you know the professor asked us to buy the whole book and then we only read like 4 of the chapters for class. But I read the whole thing and it's like a None and something page. You know, ah doorstoper but just like you were saying the the hours just passed easily because it was really interesting and you're reading about different parts of North America and even you know years later after I've you know, read that book some of those descriptions of archeology of certain regions and stuff it still holds up and the book's you know 101520 years old right. 28:57.54 Heather Yeah. 29:04.84 archpodnet Good I was just looking on audible actually to see what Brian Faginbooks aren't audible because since I do a lot of driving I you know listen to some some audio books. He's got a brand new book coming out in like a month. He's 85 it's called 29:28.80 Heather Yeah, yeah. 29:36.98 archpodnet The rape of the Nile and it might actually be out I'm not sure but the audiobook comes out in June ah. 29:26.48 Andrew Kinkella Yep, oh no, yeah, no rape of the Nile rape of the now his his original I think it's it. The first book he ever wrote it from like the 1970 s and then he read. Yeah, he re uped it. 29:59.40 archpodnet Okay, judgment. 29:45.39 succinctbill Whoa. 29:58.10 Andrew Kinkella So I love I was almost going to put rape of the nile on here too because rape of the Nile is it really talks about Giovanni Bell Zoni who's a famous loder and it talks about looting in Egypt and so he wrote that early in his career then he wrote Lord and farharaoh later in his career and it's actually really cool. They're both great. 30:21.26 archpodnet People and. 30:32.64 archpodnet Got you? yeah because I can't find Lord and farrow on here. So I'll I'll preorder that. Yeah, nice, nice. 30:34.22 Andrew Kinkella No yeah. 30:30.55 succinctbill Her. 30:43.78 Heather and and I think another one he wrote that I really liked was the little ice age so anybody interested in climate change. Um, he talks about the ice age from the 1300 s the eighteen hundreds. Um, but yeah, it's a really. 30:58.60 archpodnet Yeah. 30:48.96 Andrew Kinkella Um. 30:44.91 succinctbill Okay. 31:19.40 archpodnet Cool. 31:21.90 Heather That's a great book and it puts things in context. So he draws it back. He doesn't just talk about that ice age he draws draws it into. Um you know what's happening today. 31:42.40 archpodnet Nice, nice. Well I think to close this out I won't close it with a with a Brian faggen book. Although we could probably just talk about Brian Fagin bookss the whole time and I think Andrew said he was going to try to get Brian on the show but you know he has't really come through with his. You know I guess Andrew's not as famous as we thought he was to be able to get these other celebrities. So. 32:07.60 Andrew Kinkella But I'm I'm not dude I'm a total fraud in a sham I'm sorry it's best to know now. 32:13.76 Heather Ah. Andrew I'm telling you you tell tell him let I think I really think we should do it from the boat I think that would be telling it would be awesome. Just go out in the harbor a little bit just go past the harbor. 32:16.53 succinctbill Ah. 32:45.10 archpodnet Ah, yeah, yeah, nice. 32:34.36 Andrew Kinkella Oh my God He would tell. Yeah, yeah, we'll see right right? right? Yeah, no pressure, no pressure I just have to. 32:32.90 succinctbill Um, or up it. 33:09.22 archpodnet Nice, no pressure. Yeah, don't kill kill Brian Faggon yeah nice all right? Well I'll I'll mention one more that was in the. 33:03.80 Heather He lives here you and I could take him out there. Try not to kill him. 33:03.51 succinctbill Um, ah ah, just speak into this microphone. 33:13.86 Andrew Kinkella Hey we're not here to kidnap you but ah, can you come on this boat just talk into this microphone. Ah. 33:27.58 Heather Right. 33:48.40 archpodnet Ah, it's not I mean it's fiction but fiction based on you know, based on real principles fin fiction used to talk about real principles and a lot of people hated this book but I just loved the way that it was presented for some reason but Adrian ah Pricellis's ah shoot death by theory. 34:08.13 succinctbill Death by theory. 34:13.51 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 34:20.14 Heather Yeah, like oh yes, yes, that's a good book up. 34:27.82 archpodnet And there's some reason. Yeah I just really liked that book and the one I linked to here is 2011 because it's the revised edition but I definitely read that when I was in my undergrad back in the early two thousand s and it was just I don't know I really liked again the way that it was presented and I'll have to find a link to this as well. We interviewed Adrian Pracellis on either this show or one of my shows um a few years ago so bill do you remember that at all I don't remember if he was on Sera Mark or not but I'll have to look it up. Yeah. 35:05.21 succinctbill Yeah I I remember it also Adrian is he's a pretty cool guy. Pretty interesting guy talking about people that you'd want to be when you get older I mean he started well he didn't start it but he definitely maintained for decades. Ah um, along with his wife. The. 35:32.14 archpodnet Yeah. 35:43.77 succinctbill Ah, archeology the Crm program at Sonoma State so for years. So for years they were doing that and so that's totally like talking about guys that you want to be like folks, you want to be like I mean that's definitely one of them. 36:01.78 archpodnet Yeah I think it's. 35:52.38 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 36:16.94 archpodnet Yeah, and he's he's either still there or or is like an advisor or something like that too as of just a couple years ago yeah yeah both of them. Nice nice. 36:12.67 succinctbill I Think an advisor I'm pretty sure they're retired. Yeah. 36:25.70 Heather Yeah I I give that book to everybody on my staff for Christmas I do I have like a list that I and you know, ah obviously people come and go or will we add to the staff. So but that's one I make sure I give right off right? off the bat is death by theory. 36:31.62 Andrew Kinkella Hint. 37:02.94 archpodnet Right? Well oh nice. Yeah there you go well as ah I know I'm not sure about Heather but I know as Andrew Bill and I wait for our books to eagerly show up on this list. 37:05.18 Heather Yep, and you know introduced me to that say Andrew yeah. 37:03.46 Andrew Kinkella Look at that I Just do it all. 37:42.38 archpodnet Let's ah, let's take a let's take a break and come back on the other side and keep talking about books back in a minute.