00:00.18 archpodnet Welcome back to the serum archeology podcast episode None and we're talking about books that shaped our careers and since I really only have one more that is on my I guess foundational list and it might seem odd again to have this book on there but it's richest to rust. 00:18.51 succinctbill Um, yeah. 00:37.96 archpodnet By Eric Twitty and if you've ever worked in an area with ah a lot of heavy mining equipment and stuff like that like like you know Nevada like pretty much all of Nevada and yeah, ah, lots lots of parts of California as well. Utah um, you know pretty much the intermountain west and and again eastern california then this book is almost a necessity and not only because it has indices in the back that just have ah an amazing array of measurements and just things in there to help you identify things. But I'll tell you what when I first got to I started doing crm just because that was the career path that I was going down. I wasn't really interested in anything historic to be honest I was always interested in older stuff in college I was always into like paleoanthropology. But I got rejected from asu's ph d program 1 time and never looked back I was like okay, great, not going to do that program and I just I just. Ended up going into corm and I just like hated historics. It was just like not old enough and I hated it absolutely hated it and I know and I finally get to nevada and then it's all just like mining stuff and I'm like seriously I got to record like old cans and cement platforms with bolts coming out of them. What is this garbage until. 01:20.14 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 02:27.57 succinctbill Ah, ah. 03:09.26 archpodnet Somebody put me onto that book and I read it I read the whole thing in like a weekend and it's not that long of a book but you can you can read it pretty quick and it just got me really excited about the actual use and when you think about the use of certain things and the fact that you can have a concrete platform of a certain size with a bolt pattern. 03:27.50 succinctbill Yeah. 03:45.76 archpodnet And know what kind of equipment was on there and then extrapolate that out to well there was these kinds of other artifacts and structures along with this equipment which means these people were doing this and you start to paint this picture in your head of what life was actually like on that site which I think is what you know to me what archeology is all about is painting that picture. And then painting that picture for other people and that really kind of reignitted or ignited initially my my passion for working on that kind of stuff and it and it made it So I didn't hate my job because it was all his starts and I was just like I hate this? yeah and it really brought it back into it for me. 04:23.33 succinctbill Um, ah. 02:24.77 Heather That's really cool huh. 04:36.51 succinctbill Not only that but with mining sites. You're kind of actually looking at the the reverse image The the missing things of where there were things right? like you know a tent platform where that used to be someone's house and there was a tent and there used to be wood and all this other stuff. But the only thing we're left is this platform or. 05:07.24 archpodnet Yeah, totally. 05:13.27 succinctbill You know like a open cut you know now there there's a hole in the ground now that we're measuring and looking at but that used to be rock with a vein of something there and that's why they were digging So that's all that's interesting. You'd say that. 05:34.12 archpodnet Me here. 05:51.40 archpodnet Well yeah, and you can often tell the success of a mine and in how long it was around by some of the obviously the stuff that was left behind. For example, if you look at some of the equipment and you can identify what was on there. You can you can almost identify down to like the brand that was on there because they all had different bullet patterns and stuff. 06:04.39 succinctbill Wow. 06:30.58 archpodnet And if they're using like a really expensive you know, ah pump or something like that. Well they're pulling a lot of material out and they're doing really well right? Um, and if you if you see a tent platform and around the edges of it. You not only have nails but you have plate glass. 06:22.49 succinctbill Yeah. 07:00.80 archpodnet Plate glass again was something you only brought in if you're there for a long time and you're being successful right? Otherwise it's just like it's actual tense and um, yeah, so all those kinds of things this book helped helped bring that in and it was just ah I guess influential for me and as far as my work in Nevada goes. 06:45.50 succinctbill Um, yeah. 07:12.51 succinctbill Yeah I like that. Ah that reminds me a lot of the ah because the I ended up having the opposite thing of being like you know, no offense. Ah native Americans but being like broken rocks like seriously man like we're looking at these handful of these rocks. 05:08.91 Heather Very cool. 08:05.98 archpodnet Ah, right. 07:51.45 succinctbill And I can pretty much tell you what they are church. Okay, church cal saidi. Okay okay, brad now we've got to say we've got 13 broken pieces of rock whereas if you're at this tent platform thing you can imagine pumps and ah you know electric generators and all this different stuff that's going on there. 06:56.78 Andrew Kinkella I see. 08:40.42 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 08:29.47 succinctbill Or if you're at someone's farmstead or house you can look at all these different plates and different stuff and think oh they were taking this medicine and they were doing that and here's how they did their laundry I Just thought that historical stuff was way more interesting. Ah, but you do find those artifact categories that you really kind of cringe at. 09:07.00 archpodnet Um. 09:18.34 archpodnet Yeah. 09:04.45 succinctbill And brick is definitely one, especially since we don't really even keep it right? Bricks you're just kind of like oh my god what are we going to do with all these but ah when you mention that that reminds me of ah Carl Girkey's bricks and brick making the the handbook of bricks and it tells you you know how they were made and. 09:28.88 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 07:23.17 Heather And. 09:47.88 archpodnet Nice. 09:44.19 succinctbill You know, just like you were saying what level of technology you're using what how hard they were fired were they used for you know are they fireproof bricks are they just regular bricks that people were using for their house. What are the dimensions. What sizes you know a lot of our streets used to be made out of bricks. Then all of a sudden these brick fragments and these different colors of bricks and the markings on them it it tells you a little bit more so that's another book that I used to hate you know, broken up pieces of brick or even whole bricks. But after reading that book then it definitely changed a lot of the ways that I think about that kind of artifact too. 08:41.10 Heather I The here. 11:08.70 archpodnet It's kind of a metaphor for life isn't it the more you learn about something and the more you respect and understand it. Yeah well you know. 10:57.10 succinctbill Ah, they say something about me in a blockhead like so those bricks and then there's you here? Ah ah and no wonder you don't understand the utility because you're staring at something that's very similar. It's almost as if it was a mirror bill. Ah. 10:02.24 Andrew Kinkella Are. 11:37.80 archpodnet Yeah, you are Breck. Ah, nice. Nice. 09:26.81 Heather Yeah, brickhead. Ah um I think you know in any book that allows especially for archaeologists it this you know you guys talking about this this progression from I Hate this set of artifact types to oh. 12:22.20 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:03.99 Heather This is like interesting is a book that allows you to kind of nerd out like it. It shows you why it it gives you the you know the ins and outs of that artifact type so that you understand it. So I think you know for those of us that are archeologists. That's something that. 12:52.90 archpodnet Um. 10:41.61 Heather Kind of gets us going is if we can really understand the detail and break something down and we can understand it enough that we can like bill said work it backwards then that becomes interesting to us and I think so any book that can do that and you know I think a lot of us have been on that. 13:26.60 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 11:15.71 Heather On on that um path where either we really like historicics and we don't like prehistorics or the other way Around. It's just a matter of learning more about it and the ins and outs and in a book that can like in so I don't know can inspire you to nerd out on a subject. Is obviously a successful book as far as archeology goes. Um I'm definitely adding these.. There's plenty of bottle bookss I'm gonna look I have one but I don't have it with me. It's at my office but I'm gonna look it up over talking. But for me, it goes a little bit. It's not a material.. Although if you want to look at a material book. 14:24.20 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:09.33 succinctbill The. 12:33.99 Heather That everybody should have and I think a most majority of people have is the human bone manual. Um, it's not a replacement for a human osteologist as a human osteologist myself. It's not a replacement but it's certainly what's that. 15:10.58 archpodnet Um. 14:53.41 succinctbill Yeah, yeah. 13:53.32 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 14:10.58 Andrew Kinkella I'm sure it is sure it is no. 13:10.97 Heather Ah, not for the long term Andrew but they definitely will make you it will help you not make stupid mistakes and that that that human bone manual is such a great book it. It is it could be so much bigger, but it understands that. 14:30.62 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 15:52.78 archpodnet Me. 13:50.23 Heather It's big. It's small enough to be able to bring with you in the fields and that that book is it's awesome. So for anybody who doesn't know about it. It's look it up the human bone manual by Tim White and Peter faulkins. Everybody should have it in their backpack. Yes. 16:18.66 archpodnet Oh. 15:21.92 Andrew Kinkella Ah I would say indispensable in the field again because you can in the field just look and the photos are so great. You can just go Oh okay, it is a dear bone you know yeah to scale exactly. It's great. 16:42.80 archpodnet Yep. 14:26.73 Heather Everybody yeah and they're to scale. They're to scale. So yeah, that's what's really important and it shows you a siding because when it comes to human it I mean it it will. 17:02.20 archpodnet Well here. 15:58.47 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 15:05.89 Heather Not allow you to do full analysis. Um, although it could do partial but um, it will certainly help you identify whether or not it's human or Nonhuman and which is obviously very important. So. 16:34.98 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, huge um. 17:59.46 archpodnet Nice, nice. Bill is Tim White still at ah, still at Berkeley or is he fully retired by now. 17:54.93 succinctbill I Yeah I don't know if we if I'm allowed to talk about ah since ah, it's ah anthropology department is actively trying to repatriate ah grave goods and do right by nabra being compliance and. 18:25.62 archpodnet Ah, never mine then. 16:12.15 Heather Yeah, right. 18:31.39 succinctbill Some actors who will remain untated explicitly will just spend their entire career to make sure that we don't repatriate anything so I don't know well the bone man. 18:52.92 archpodnet E. 16:37.55 Heather Um, well look use d schools. Ah yeah, well and it's not just Berkeley all you see schools are doing that. Yeah, it's across the board. But. 19:02.26 archpodnet Interesting. 18:51.67 succinctbill Is an excellent book and a totally useful item. But you know we shall not talk about that at least I shall not because I don't know I'm trying to get tenure here. So I'm not going to say anything about it. 18:12.34 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, yeah, you know in terms of those nuts and bolts books. Um I have a ah few more ah the the book that is simply called the archeological survey manual. 19:14.39 succinctbill Yeah. 19:33.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, nice. 17:17.55 Heather Um, anyway. 20:03.20 archpodnet Boom. 18:43.72 Andrew Kinkella By white and King I make all my archeology survey students buy it. It's one of those ones that goes in and out of publication. It's always on the edge you know, but it's ah it's a fantastic it. It shows stuff like this is how to fold your map like I love stuff like that. You know it takes you down to brass Tacks. It's like when you're standing there in the field. 17:39.41 Heather You yep. 20:14.40 archpodnet Red. 20:27.42 archpodnet Yeah. 19:23.18 Andrew Kinkella This is how to do the stuff you know and it it takes you through how to use a compass. It's it's fantastic and there's even 1 or 2 almost kind of lighthearted jokes in there. it's it's great it's it's it's for a technical manual basically supremely readable I love it. Um. 20:44.22 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 18:40.39 Heather M. 20:02.32 Andrew Kinkella I'll also say and you've heard me talk about this before on the podcast where there is no doctor that book was so huge for me like in the you know you're sitting there in the jungle of Belize and you're like man I have this horrendous rash on my knee and it's not getting better. You know you can you look it up. 19:04.41 Heather Yes, right? but. 20:34.74 Andrew Kinkella And it and it makes you feel better and you're like oh I can okay I can go to the local pharmacy and get this stuff and and I'll be okay I love that book for field. 19:48.47 Heather Um, I'll so I'll say just for non field. This is definitely not 1 that you want to bring in the field with you but for a Crm professional is absolute must and that's Tom King's cultural resources laws and practice. 21:08.26 Andrew Kinkella Um. 21:26.80 Andrew Kinkella Right. 22:46.72 archpodnet Ah. 20:27.99 Heather Absolutely it. It can be a heavy read, especially for somebody who's new into crm. But if you want to progress in your profession and and let's say you want to be in the field but you understand that that's probably not going to be the place to progress. In this profession or that your body's not going to be able to survive if you do this for 40 years um that is indispensable I mean you have to have that book and you have to read it and I I you know, go back to it all the time it gives you. Just like Tom King is just he's a different kind of writer than Brian Fagan but Tom King is an amazing. He is also very good. He's obviously very intelligent man but he's very good at at bringing things down to an understandable level. 24:14.40 archpodnet Yeah. 22:19.45 Heather And when it comes to regulatory language and being able to apply regulatory language and the spirit of it. That's what I love the most and there's nobody better to write it than him because he was there from the very beginning. He's the one that wrote the laws from the very beginning and so he understands the spirit behind. 25:03.00 archpodnet Yeah. 22:57.31 Heather Regulatory laws that we are practicing every day in our profession and so that book right there it it gives you how to how to practice. But it also gives you why the wise behind all those laws. Yeah. 25:45.40 archpodnet Yeah, and you know that might sound like ah a pretty boring book to read and it's a really thick subject. Yeah, but to the way Tom King writes yeah that's the whole thing is there's humor in it. 23:41.49 Heather It's not yeah, but yeah, yeah, yes, guest. Yes. 26:17.82 archpodnet There's he has a lot of sarcasm in his writing which is also humorous and you know it's just like if you've ever heard Tom King speak or if you've listened to this podcast. He's been on a number of times or or seen any of his comments on you know Facebook it's exactly written that way like he doesn't hold anything back. 24:07.35 Heather Ah. 24:19.47 Heather Those are those are the best because and you know it was funny because in the beginning I was like fiercely fiercely like a defensive for him and I would get so mad. 26:56.92 archpodnet Right. 24:54.25 Heather People would say thing I mean just like arrogant snivelling brats were like saying these stupid things ah to him having no idea who he is and then I would like step up and say okay listen you want to Google this and and here you might want to read up before you open your mouth. 27:55.28 archpodnet Yeah. 25:33.31 Heather Okay, and you're proved yourself to be a complete and utter fool but he loved it. You could tell he loves that kind of just very slowly kind of um with a little bit of Bait bringing people into that his trap you know. 28:28.68 archpodnet Yeah. 26:07.61 Heather He has no problem. Yeah, in fact I think he enjoys people acting like he's some crazy old man. Um, yeah, he's his he if you could write a book or have a book of his just his Facebook comments I think it'd be like a bests selller that's relief. Ah. 29:02.38 archpodnet Oh you know that needs to be a that needs to be our that needs to be a segment like like Tom King like the mean tweets thing Tom King reads his own Facebook comments. 26:46.87 Heather Yes, yes, ah, let's do it. Oh my gosh. Yes, that would be awesome. 28:59.43 succinctbill Ah, ah, this book I put this on here too. This is one of the original ones that I put on here and the reason why is I I had a I went to a university I got it can be named Boise State University Great Football team 29:29.88 archpodnet Ah. 29:50.56 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 29:39.51 succinctbill Whack university and ah I got I got almost no like mentorship whatsoever until my very last year great guy ah Ah max pavissick kind of ended up taking me under his wing because. You realize here's this kid. That's about to graduate that no one has ever talked to like ever about anything that wants to do archeology. So I was given like no opportunities. No nothing. No one ever took any notice of me in class they weren they didn't think I was really serious about being an archaeologist and so I went to this school where it was just put tuition in get degree at the end. 31:03.54 archpodnet M. 30:48.53 succinctbill And you know you're on your own to figure out what you're going to do with your life andde I think we've talked about it several times but at a certain point you know ah Pavisi saw me working at Costco and was like what are you doing you need to I thought you're going to do archeology. Well here's what you do you go try to find a job at a cultural resources company and I was like what's that. 28:46.41 Heather Wow. So. 31:28.39 succinctbill Like oh that's what we used to do before I became a professor you know that's what everybody does if you want to do archeology and so that was kind of what let me know that you could really do this as a career because at that time I had no idea I thought you had to be a professor to do archeology in the United States because no one had ever told me anything at my university. 29:44.63 Heather Um, what a shame that's crazy. 30:57.90 Andrew Kinkella Enough. 32:04.15 succinctbill So I got into idaho for my masters at the same time I was applying for my to ah get it get a job I also realized you have to get this meet the secretary of interior standards. That's why I went back for my masters. So I applied for universities I got in at Idaho. And 1 of the first classes I took there was a joint. Ah Washington State University of idaho kind of shared campus situation where you know Washington State's strong program in Northwest Prehistoric archeology and and mesoamerican archeology. You know we could take classes in that which we didn't have at Idaho. And they could take the historical archeology classes that we had so the campuses are only eight miles apart and one of the first classes I took there was cultural resource management at Washington State and our textbook was this book cultural resources law and practice and that's what really. 34:03.28 archpodnet M. 31:42.55 Heather App. 32:49.78 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 33:53.95 succinctbill Like you said it let me know why this stuff is happening like why does this exist? What are we supposed to do? how do the laws work and ever since then I've just continued looking back at that book I used to I used to have students read it in my class. But now there's another one that I have students read but I still always recommend people buy this one because it's. 34:41.82 archpodnet Yeah. 34:32.87 succinctbill You know it's a good handbook for knowing the laws and the regulations. 33:38.40 Andrew Kinkella Ah, Abel did which one do you have your students read now. 34:49.30 succinctbill Oh the new one that I have them read is ah Scott andfinson's practical heritage management. It's it was. It's like 2019 I think 2018 and so it came out at the same time as ah. 34:00.58 Andrew Kinkella Okay. 35:24.90 succinctbill Tom King's fourth edition of cultural resources law and practice and the only the only reason I have them do the other one is because ah they could get it as a textbook and also um I think that they have an e ah the university library has an e version of it so they could get it for free. 34:25.36 Andrew Kinkella Right. 36:06.30 archpodnet Um. 33:48.27 Heather Oh. 34:54.34 Andrew Kinkella Right? f. 36:18.48 archpodnet Yeah. 36:03.27 succinctbill And it's on their it's their you know laptop. There's like no reason basically for you to say you have it. You can't read this week's readings. That's the only reason why that's it for. 35:08.26 Andrew Kinkella Um, and yes, yes, no, that's I totally in it. 34:10.43 Heather Right? I think I. 36:36.82 archpodnet All right? all right guys. 36:24.37 succinctbill No I mean the the Amphson book is good though I'll tell you that and if if you have been reading Tom King and Scott Infson does a great job. He used to be the state historic preservation officer I think in Minnesota for years and years and he's been doing it for a long long time so in that book you also get a whole breadth of different. 35:45.60 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 37:04.19 succinctbill Ah perspectives and it does a great job of breaking the laws down too. So check that one out too and. 37:25.94 archpodnet Okay, all right? Well with that We will see you on the other side and finish up our discussion about books that shaped our career. Be sure to look down at your phone because all of the links to the stuff we're talking about and possibly links to Stuff. We haven't gotten to are in the show notes. So. It's a good. Good resource of things to to see what has influenced us and what we like back in a minute.