00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode None of The Crm Archeology Podcast Segment 3 and we're talking about books that shaped our careers and well let's just open it up who's next we've we've got None thing left. So let's let's hit your. Let's get your heavy hitters that we haven't talked about yet. 00:17.29 Andrew Kinkella Okay I have I have 2 more coming down. Um, first I want to give a shout out to skull wars by ah David Hirst Thomas I think it does a great job of bringing students. You know into. 00:51.86 archpodnet Ah, nice. 00:49.21 Andrew Kinkella What is nagra and how yeah sort of the the history the Native American history versus the history of archeology and bringing it together I would call it imminently readable and I would say of probably every book I've ever given to students. It's the one they come to talk to me about like years later, you know it's. 01:40.28 archpodnet No. 01:27.59 Andrew Kinkella So it's just it's so readable and it does such a good job of threading that needle with some really complex topics. Um, then I also have one that that people won't know as well which is called in search of Maya Sea traders by Heather Mckillop 00:56.80 Heather So. 01:56.16 archpodnet Yeah. 02:05.87 Andrew Kinkella And as as we all know I'm a mayanist kind of none and foremost and Heather's book I loved because she put her own field experience very very much into it and again very readable. She just talks about what it was like to start her project and. What it was like working in an ah area of the Maya world that not many had really worked on before in the daily grind of trying to make it happen and at the same time talking about very technical aspects of ah doing mya archeology. So she kind of brings it all together and again very readable. 03:22.36 archpodnet Um. 03:11.89 Andrew Kinkella You know I go back to that one and go like okay you can write something like this and it works you know So I like that one as well. Um. 03:38.96 archpodnet Nice, okay, you know hey I do have one more book and I'm not just saying this. Ah for reasons that'll become known in a minute. It's something I thought about and we need to get it on the list bill. But. It's small archeology project management by Dr William a white I'm not even kidding Bill when you came out with that book. Yeah I was I was starting my company and you know I had managed some projects before but it it always helps to you know, even if you think you know everything you absolutely do not right? I don't care how much experience you have. 02:13.00 succinctbill Ah, only my goody. 04:56.54 archpodnet Listening to other people's experiences or reading about those and how they approach things is a way that you can take little bits of information from there you know use what you need and don't use what you don't need and that's what I think most authors expect out of their books and I think it just it's ah it's a great book for Anybody who is currently managing projects or is thinking about becoming a project manager and wants to increase those skill sets and what bill I think you can get it for like five bucks on Amazon or something like that I mean it's a totally. You know it's ah it's nuts and bolts. It's short and to the point and it's it's a it's a good one to have on the list. 03:36.34 succinctbill Yeah, yeah. 05:46.57 Andrew Kinkella I will actually agree I've been secretly spying on Bill's wares on the Amazon world and ah yeah, those are great man. Yeah they I'm going for the entire bill collection man. Um, yeah. 03:50.98 succinctbill Um, yeah, um. Ah. 06:22.72 archpodnet Um, yeah, oh my you celebrate his entire catalog. 04:17.34 succinctbill Ah, ah, ah, ah, those So the the thing about those books are that they were written from conversations and experiences of other C R M people. 06:22.11 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I do I Totally I celebrate it all. 04:52.74 succinctbill So all those books that I've written the resume book ah building a career and all that stuff it all comes from years and years of listening to other archeologists I just put it together you know and try to sell it for four ninety nine so that it's portable Kindle always so that you could just have it on your phone at any time. 07:17.30 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 05:25.60 succinctbill So those are the ideas behind it. It wasn't It's like you know, open source. Ah you know materials and now that you mentioned and I should be having ah graduate students really should be reading that book because I'm I'm watching folks just get dropped into stuff and it's kind of like well what do you want to do? oh I Want to do. 07:50.78 archpodnet Yeah. 07:45.31 Andrew Kinkella Totally. 08:05.16 archpodnet Sure. 06:04.90 succinctbill You know a project in um nuavut canada on you know a heritage site or whatever and they're like okay great. Go do it and see it in None ars like hopefully you got your data and I'm shaking my head like wow are you serious like when no one's going to really talk to him about the logistics of trying to do this or you know what are some of the implications like. How are you going to budget it. How are you going to manage other people and it doesn't seem like they're just like nope it's all right? They'll make it and you're shaking your head like it's why graduation rate is like 60% right? is 40% any guidance whatsoever and then after 6 years they have no dissertation. 09:14.50 archpodnet Well emrant. 09:00.25 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 09:26.00 archpodnet Yeah, and if you do manage to graduate your reten. The retention rate is even less because you're just thrown into the fire thinking you know stuff and you don't and people ridicule you for it. So yeah, yep. 07:25.62 succinctbill Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 08:54.26 Heather So here here this isn't a book but this is an article which we've brought out before and everybody knows is one of my favorites I mean it's probably a lot of people's favorites and that is the Golden Marshall town a parable for archeology in the 1980 s and is yeah. 10:02.85 Andrew Kinkella Um, yay. 10:20.98 archpodnet Ah I know you're going to say that. Ah. 09:33.68 Heather It is. It's still so it still rings so true if you read it I'm sure I was an archaeologist in the 1980 s but I'm an archaeologist now and it rings true now and it's such an enjoyable read and I think it actually is one of those times where any time. You experience either talking to somebody reading a book or any kind of interaction where you're like oh my goodness you get me you get where I'm sitting in life right? now you get my experience and there's some solace in understanding that somebody else. Sees the world somewhat the same way you do and this book or sorry this article does that and I think you know I have dreams of how we present this article in the future as a um, you know as a podcast but that. 11:44.18 archpodnet Um. 12:03.20 archpodnet Nice. 11:22.38 Heather For anybody that has not read it before it is an absolute must read. 12:08.69 Andrew Kinkella I agree the article that kept Andrew Kingkella in archeology I remember I was sick of all this crap and I read it on a plane and I was like you know maybe I'll give it another try. Yeah. 12:27.60 archpodnet I. 11:49.72 Heather Yep, on the plane to on a plane for those that know the article and so apropos yeah, it's it's ah I just gave a talk at about it at the Sda's and and ah saw a familiar face. 12:45.65 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, totally. 13:00.81 Andrew Kinkella Ah, yeah, that's right, That's right, a shaking my head angry just mouthing the word no constantly. 12:25.46 Heather In in the crowd shaking his head in embarrassment. But ah yeah, ah, but that yeah, it's a great article. Basically um for those that aren't familiar it just it kind of. 11:16.18 succinctbill Ah, ah, ah. 13:02.88 Heather It outlines in a very fun way for different personalities in archaeology and I guess that kind of or Anthony I mean it's really any of the social sciences but mainly archeology that um I don't know what that says about our profession that they all 4 of them still exist or maybe the. 14:17.87 Andrew Kinkella Well, they're they're archetypes too. You know I mean they're always going to exist you know? um. 13:41.50 Heather This is such a good article that it covers. Yes, yeah oh yes, oh absolutely? Yeah, so but it is um yeah, it's It's a great article. 14:37.30 Andrew Kinkella Absolutely you know speaking speaking of amazing authors I was completely blown away by archeology is awesome by Andrew Kinkella it was an amazing. 14:55.10 archpodnet Nice. 14:12.76 Heather Yeah, that was gonna be my next one. Ah. 15:01.97 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, its amazing tour to force. Ah, you know it deserves its place on Amazon's number 1 list but ah actually in in the ah the book hours amazing but actually in in seriousness I I did put it down as a book that influenced me. 14:29.28 Heather Yes, and the book covers like the best. 15:28.94 archpodnet Now. 15:38.70 Andrew Kinkella Because I learned all about the publication process like I'd never I'd never been in that world before you know in in that way like we've done academic stuff but this is you know in the the textbook world so it was a really fascinating journey of of learning the nuts and bolts of. 16:10.22 archpodnet M. 16:10.29 Andrew Kinkella How the publication process works and what do you do at what time and and you know how do you get images or or this kind of thing so it was a huge learning experience for me. 16:47.74 archpodnet Nice, yeah. 15:51.22 Heather Well Chris now I think we need to talk about Chris's book ah 14:40.60 succinctbill I. Yeah, yes, please because it's the only book that actually talks about the reality of being a field tech which involves getting unemployment from multiple different states like how do you do that I actually asked my students do they know how to get unemployment and they just looked at me and I was like oh you guys are in a lot of trouble. But. 16:47.97 Andrew Kinkella Definitely. 16:16.31 Heather Yes. 16:33.52 Heather Yeah, so the name of the book is field Archaeologist survival guide getting a job and working in culture resource management. Highly recommend. 17:35.40 archpodnet Um, yeah. 17:18.57 Andrew Kinkella Oh. 15:28.38 succinctbill Ah. 17:51.80 archpodnet I I wanted a better title than that something more snappy but left Coast press wouldn't do it. Ah. 17:05.62 Heather Well, but your but again your your book Cover ah is is eye catching and the fact this a survival guide. It's like archeology for dummies type of a look you know? um I think it works. 18:21.80 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 18:32.52 archpodnet Well, yeah, thanks and I had I had started putting together some I guess before I even started writing a blog long time ago before I started the podcast I had started putting together some resources when I first got into crm because you know everybody's heard my story before as well. But. Yeah I I had very little crm education very little nuts and bolts archaeology education just a lot of theory stuff and in my undergrad and it wasn't it just wasn't a c or m heavy school. So when I finally got into crm like I didn't even know how to use a screen right? because I went to Africa for my field school and we basically had totally different kinds of screens. And different procedures and different things. So I didn't even know how to use a standing shaker screen when I got to my first c m project I had to kind of wait until somebody else went over to the pit or to the back dirt pile and started screening and things like that and I wanted to put together some more nuts and bolt stuff. You know, living in hotel rooms and and how do you. I was more concerned with retention and that's what this book is all about you're not going to learn anything about archaeology in this book. You're going to learn how to survive being a c or m archaeologist and and what you need to do to stay in the field because it does us no good to teach people about archaeology if they're just going to go work at the gap. You know what? I mean. So yeah. 19:34.66 Heather Yeah. 18:46.74 succinctbill Yeah, totally yeah. 20:05.60 Heather Yes, for sure. 21:09.80 archpodnet That was the thought behind that I wish I could kind of redo it but the ah Rutledge now owns it which is under Taylor and France or roledge under Taylor and Francis and they won't really release it so I can do a ah second edition under like somebody else and um because I really don't want to do it under them either. 20:41.90 Heather Here. 21:48.10 archpodnet And but they're also like not doing anything with it and they're not promoting it and I'm like well okay I'll have to do something completely different. So. 19:35.36 succinctbill Ah, ah yeah, yeah, ah. 21:00.44 Heather Yeah, I'm kind of curious I know this isn't what this is for but I am a little curious like how do you like how much of the title. Do you have to change in order to be able to write something you know updated if that's what you want to do. 22:15.34 archpodnet Um. Right? It all of it. All of it. Yeah yeah I would have to change and the good thing is there's so much more to write about right? like I did this. 20:13.46 succinctbill Yeah, a lot a lot. Yeah, ah. 21:44.42 Heather Sure. 22:48.26 archpodnet This was intended to be a smaller book. It was a series from left coast press and like I had a word limit and I pretty much hit that word limit so because it was part of their part of their I came remember. It's a series that they had and it was part of that and that's how it was. That's how they got it in there. But. But there's so much more to write about and I could take either some of those topics and greatly expand on them or write about you know, 50 other topics and still have you know a decent resource especially since this was like eight years ago this month I think this or last month and um that it was published I mean. 21:31.74 succinctbill Um, yeah. 23:53.32 archpodnet There's just different things I could talk about now and updated stuff. So I've talked to my publisher from left Coast press. She left when Ralish took over because they basically cleaned shop and she's now at Burg on books. Actually yeah, she's amazing and um so I've talked to her about it and if I had the time. 21:55.58 succinctbill Yeah, she's great though. 24:31.14 archpodnet We could probably do something that would be an update but again it would be a totally different, totally different title and and yeah, not really affiliated. So. 22:24.78 succinctbill Air. 23:47.28 Heather Well if if anyone is interested so I'm actually I'm working on writing something myself I haven't I'm just kind of putting things together and um, but there is a book another one by Brian Fagin called writing archeology and. 24:59.16 archpodnet Nice. 25:11.42 archpodnet Um, oh yeah, that's good. Um. 23:01.36 succinctbill Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 24:58.47 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 24:23.10 Heather I have referred to that many times that's a good, really good. Another very good book. Um, where he really kind of you know, takes you down the road of what what's important and what you think is important probably isn't always a good thing to include in a book. So if anybody. 25:54.30 archpodnet Yeah. 25:01.92 Heather Listening to this podcast is interested in writing for archeology or writing a book that that's a good resource. 25:50.75 Andrew Kinkella Yeah I use little of so I use that a lot when I was writing my textbook I look back to Brian's you know book on that is it was really helpful. 26:09.80 archpodnet Yeah, well and maybe. 23:58.80 succinctbill Speaking up. 25:22.28 Heather Yeah. 26:23.62 archpodnet Um, yeah I think speaking of that built built go ahead. Sorry I'll I'll finish that later. 24:17.60 succinctbill Yeah, sure one of the things I wanted to say is you know? ah thinking about the way what we're writing and you know how we're moving forward. What's interesting is who has influenced us is just you know more of the main demographic of archeologists right? so. 26:06.22 Heather Yeah. 27:04.70 archpodnet No. 24:55.26 succinctbill These books that we're reading that people are cranking out. It's not really coming from indigenous communities Hispanic communities. So one of the ones that when you start reading in that direction then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that comes up that changes the entire way that you're practicing yourself. 26:19.54 Heather M. 25:29.36 succinctbill You know, not teaching you how to just keep doing what we've already been doing but doing it in a different way. The couple of books that I put on the list originally were ah Sonja Adela's community-based archeology which is a great book that talks about her own experiences and it really you know it totally shaped the way that I'm doing my kind of research. And then there's a newer one that's edited by Keia Supernat Jane Eva Baxter Natasha Lyons and Sonia Adelaide called archeologies of the heart and archeologies of the heart is one that actually changes the entire way you feel about archeology and what you're even doing because. 27:38.94 Heather No. 26:43.46 succinctbill It's so easy to get into that grindset where you're just you know got to get money. Got to get food on the table and like where am I going to find my next Job. How is this all going to work. But when you start thinking about you know what? this is actually doing to you as an archeologist What this is doing to Communities. You know if you continue in this direction. And then the different way that you can go where you can actually kind of listen to what your emotions and what your body's telling you rather than just purely Following. You know where am I going to dig the next hole. What is you know what feature is this What mining site is this right? so. 29:32.30 archpodnet The love. 27:49.28 succinctbill That book came out a couple years ago and I read it and I just couldn't stop reading it and you know the people who were in it are talking about all kinds of different things on a lot of different sites around the world and just kind of the emotional impact of doing archeology and that really. After having done it for 20 years. It's too bad I did archeology for 20 years without reading this book right? Well, it wasn't around when I first started but you know it did really kind of change like if I were to go back to cultural resources. It would change the way that I write and think about sites in the way I describe them and fortunately the national. 31:04.38 archpodnet Um. 28:58.28 succinctbill Fortunately, the national historic preservation act is flexible enough for you to fit a lot of the stuff that comes in this book. It doesn't have to sound Touchy-feely like the law was designed that you can quite easily add this kind of perspective in and it doesn't have to just be. You know what kind of ceramics are there What jars are there How many flakes do we see. 31:05.59 Andrew Kinkella Um. 30:26.14 Heather So. 31:24.48 archpodnet Um, yeah. 30:39.68 Heather Yep. 31:30.45 Andrew Kinkella Right? right. 31:47.88 archpodnet Ah. 29:35.20 succinctbill It can be something deeper. 30:51.78 Heather Well, the forums have interpretation and they have actual areas where you can get a little bit more into the not so material portion of describing a site. 31:59.29 Andrew Kinkella Right. 30:04.14 succinctbill Yeah, and also like the data potential thing is like we have been calling data just flakes in shirts and rocks and stone piles. But we haven't actually been talking about the other cultural data. 32:17.18 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 31:27.20 Heather Um, right. 30:34.54 succinctbill Because most of the time we don't ever read any of that stuff so we don't actually in fact, know it right. 31:55.64 Heather Right. 32:35.73 Andrew Kinkella Right? You know I wanted to give ah what 1 more shout out to 1 other book. That's very hard to place in any of this stuff because you know we've talked about like historical archeology. We've talked about you know, ah more prehistoric archeology but I got to say that Ken Fader's frauds myths and mysteries was. 32:53.62 archpodnet Right. 33:27.34 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 33:15.73 Andrew Kinkella Was a huge one for me because it was another one that was like oh wait, you can do that and and he did a great job of talking about pseudo archeology which you know we tend to be in our little archeology hole and we forget that the general public. Yeah, they they many people believe in Atlantis you know or or these kind of things or Bigfoot or whatever and Ken goes and. 33:37.76 archpodnet And. 33:55.36 Andrew Kinkella And debunks these things but in a really fun like ah, really interesting way that was a book that I kind of read and reread several times. 34:26.20 archpodnet Nice, nice. Well I think that's about all we have time for. But I think what we ought to do because I feel like we've talked about the subject before but with 3 people on the show right now that have published Heather's writing something right now that she wants to publish. It's um. It sounds like it's high time for us to have another podcast about how to get published in archeology because I know we all did it in slightly different ways I never set out to write a book to be honest with you I had a collection of blog posts in a pdf that I happen to show left coast at a conference and just say has anything like this been published and. They're like no but we'll do it. It's like it's going to make it an ebook or something. So yeah, yeah, they were so willing to just do that and so um, but anyway I think I think talking about these experiences and then you know the different ways that we have published and then how to. 33:28.36 succinctbill Ah, that's what's great. The left Coast I Loved it I loved it. Yeah. 35:25.35 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 36:18.22 archpodnet How to kind of get into that if you want to write something Maybe what the best avenues are maybe a book isn't the best thing for you to do maybe an ebook or you mean like ah like a book on the shelf kind of thing but we should talk about that. It sounds like a good topic So all right? well. 36:15.51 Andrew Kinkella Right. 36:46.60 archpodnet As I said there are a lot of things that we didn't even get to in the show notes for this podcast and it is going to be a bear to post but it is going to be fun. There is a lot of stuff in here. So this is an excellent resource and please if you find anything helpful in here. 34:46.80 succinctbill Um, ah. 37:15.12 archpodnet Share this podcast or share the link to it on your socials. You can find us at arkpodnets on Twitter Facebook and at our website http://arkpodnet.comforward/serreareologypodcast or might just be sra mark podcastd I don't know go to http://acpodnet.com and you'll find it all right? Thanks everybody. And we'll see in two weeks okay no no, no, no, no, we are not was not the outro is this your guys' none rodeo seriously all right here we go for the outro. 35:39.38 succinctbill Um, take it easy I Ah I haven't been to the rodeo in a long time. 36:58.40 Heather Thanks for listening Oh sorry? Ah, ah. Ah. 38:29.12 archpodnet Although I'm going to take all that and just like cut and paste it over to here. So um, here we go thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 36:34.24 succinctbill By. 38:34.11 Andrew Kinkella See you guys next time. 37:58.64 Heather Thanks for listening everyone. 39:02.22 archpodnet Nice all right.