00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the cm archeology podcast episode None and we are joined by Doug Doug how's it going all right? So we're going to continue talking about publishing and to ah kickoff segment 2 I'm going to hand it over to. 00:07.91 Doug Hello. Everyone. 00:39.28 archpodnet Doctor Author Professor Andrew Kenkela go ahead. 00:20.79 Andrew Kinkella I am so important but I do have a couple other titles which you didn't get in there and I'm very angered so just get it straight next time. Yeah, so ah. 00:52.18 archpodnet Well, you know, but submit to. 00:29.59 Heather I I got a few for you Andrew I got a few fear at you but I don't think it's appropriate on a podcast. Ah. 01:05.36 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah, I'm sure there are a few more. 00:56.93 Andrew Kinkella Look look I am a professional so I'm going to bring it back and get through this. So yeah, last the the last bit there we were talking about publishing kind of in the Cr M world in technical writing and that kind of thing which is a skill that is is so good to have if you have it I know I'm classically. It's one of my difficulties. Um. 00:53.79 Heather Ah. 01:35.85 Andrew Kinkella But on the on the flip side on on the complete other side of the coin if you're trying to publish something and you want to go to a publisher you're like I have an idea for a book. Um, there's a couple different ways to go about that and I know I personally had a ton of questions about this. 02:22.62 archpodnet Ah, me. 02:10.15 Andrew Kinkella But for myself I I would ask I asked colleagues and other people and I have to say that their answers didn't help me that much. Um, and and I think it it goes back to what we touched on last time. Ah which is it's such a solo effort and there's so much Variety. So. But what I would say shortly is if you meet with a publisher in my experience. They'll always say that your idea is great. No matter what because they want right of None refusal What if you come up with an awesome Book. You know so almost no matter what you say you know they'll be like oh yeah, yeah, that sounds oh send it to me. 03:32.14 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 03:25.19 Andrew Kinkella You know? So. Ah, if you do have an idea to for a book I would definitely write it down now and the I'm telling you the proof is in the steel in the walls meaning yes again, Yes, you can have an idea but write it out and as you're writing your idea. I would do a few things None most publishers websites have a little tab that'll say like for the author go there and and they'll have the directions on what they want for submissions and most of them are very very similar like they'll they'll say that that they want like a title. 04:35.24 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 04:50.36 archpodnet Um. 04:38.45 Andrew Kinkella They want like ah expanded table of contents where you kind of explain what each chapter is and then they'll want you to write None chapter. It's usually chapter one but it's whatever you have the most kind of impetus to write so that to me is a major major step if if people are interested in publishing. It's actually writing out. That prospectus you know and you'll also have to answer questions like what what books does this compete with and you have to think like a business person at that moment. You can't just be like well my awesome idea competes with nothing just because it's me no. The world doesn't care. You have to think as a publisher you know you have to be like oh yeah, who's going to actually buy this and how much is it going to cost and is it going to be ah color photos or black of white. You know there's there's a lot there but I would not be fearful of meeting with a publisher or anything like that. Just. 06:13.88 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 06:28.63 Andrew Kinkella I Would do it I would be professional about it ah meet with different publishers. It's so funny like ones that you think would never want. It might totally want it and vice versa. So um, variety is the spice of life when when meeting with publishers. 07:07.92 archpodnet Oh. 07:19.36 archpodnet I Think too in my experience anyway and my experience is extremely limited and ah very fortunate to be honest, but in my experience and there's there's some other things to look at as well. Especially the type of publisher that you're looking at right? So if they've already got a book. 07:26.23 Andrew Kinkella Oh yeah. 07:58.28 archpodnet That or or a series of books or a number of books that are exactly like the one that do you want to write not that it would be the same book. But it's like in the same vein. They don't necessarily want to compete with themselves. You know what? I mean? Um, so so if they've already got something that's doing really well like I wouldn't approach you know Tom King's ah. 07:54.63 Andrew Kinkella Right. 08:33.60 archpodnet Publisher and say I want to write a book called cultural laws in practice. They're probably not going to do it right? He's on like the None edition or something so you know that's just too much competition and but these smaller publishers too. You got to think you got to figure you're not talking to random house here right? You're not trying to to write the next Harry Potter if you are and you're Brian fegin. 08:15.53 Andrew Kinkella Um, absolutely. 08:38.43 Andrew Kinkella Me. 09:11.18 archpodnet Then you better have a pedigree like he does and in the and the books that he already does in order to get ah ah a publisher like that because they're likely going to give you some kind of an advance or something to actually write this book but you have to have the the cred to do that but more than likely you're going to approach somebody who's a little smaller. 09:06.41 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 09:45.60 archpodnet Like I did randomly not even looking to publish a book. Um I saw the left coast press table and I'd heard about left coast press Tom King had published there quite extensively and other people had published there and it just left coast press was like a publisher for archeology books right? like it's like a small publisher for archeology books there based in California I like. 09:39.75 Andrew Kinkella Right. 09:56.97 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 10:24.84 archpodnet Just they seemed like a good fit and I had quite a few blog posts and I had ah a whole series of blog posts that I'd actually put together I'd I'd pulled from my blog I'd flushed out the post a little bit and I put them all into a Pdf and it was I don't know it was already basically something that was done and I was thinking about just making an ebook or. Some sort of collection out of it so people could get this collection of information that I'd already written and I just showed it to um, the person at the left coast press table at a conference and I was like does this I wasn't even asking them to publish it I was just like hey do you guys know because you be the ones to know this if anything like this exists. 10:57.90 Andrew Kinkella And. 11:39.16 archpodnet And she was she took a look at it and she was like basically she's like no send us a proposal and I was like oh well I wasn't even thinking about that I was just kind of asking if this was on the Market. So I sent her a proposal and because I basically had the thing already written. Um they took it So I've submitted. Well I've actually submitted 2 book proposals and one of them got selected so and therefore 2 different books I actually tried to submitting to the the idiots guide I think it was or something like that to do like a sirra archeology for dummies or idiots or whichever whicheverever one that was and they said no they said it's too much of a niche topic and I'm like you have the idiots guide to opera. 12:12.70 Andrew Kinkella Um, right, Great idea and yeah, yeah. 12:51.36 archpodnet Like are you kidding me right now. So anyway, they didn't do it. But it's um, yeah, but that was my experience with left coast is in that the point I wanted to make with that is go to if you go to conferences. And you have an idea for a book like Andrew said have a table of contents so you so you know what the book is going to be structured like have a chapter written or at least most of a chapter written so they can at least see your writing style and not that they will necessarily look at it at the conference but they'll know you're serious if you show up with that and sometimes those people work in the tables are the editors. They're not just if it's a smaller company. They don't have like lackeys that go to conferences. It's them that go to the conferences so talk to them and talk to them as though they're the editor you may not know that the editor but pretend that they are just in case you don't want to piss them off. 13:50.21 Andrew Kinkella Yep yep. 14:06.39 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, you know that was my that was the None editor I ever talked to was left coast press. The editor himself was at the conference you know and so I ultimately didn't work with left coast press because they were gone by the time. Yeah I did my textbook and I was bummed because they were great. Ah. 14:43.38 archpodnet Nice. Um, yeah. 14:42.91 Andrew Kinkella But that's that's so smart. What you what? you bring up is to you know, sort of pitch at those conferences or just strike up the conversation and see what they see what they say um I will say too. Um that you'll get denied. Um I got I actually got accepted by a big publishing place for my textbook. Originally. 15:14.22 archpodnet Me here. 15:39.58 archpodnet And. 15:21.43 Andrew Kinkella And I went way down the rabbit hole with them I I did all the prospectus it was like um, accepted. Yeah I've written the None chapter it had gone out for review. The reviews had been actually pretty good and um at the eleventh hour they were like. 16:05.86 archpodnet Oh. 15:56.83 Andrew Kinkella Oh by the way you need to change all this stuff right? They wanted me to make my textbook exactly what I like rallied against because my thing was like look I'm going to make my textbook small and cheap and fun and they were like oh you have to add 5 chapters and you have to find. 16:42.60 archpodnet Yeah. 16:31.25 Andrew Kinkella You have to find a co-author from a 4 year university which made me so pissed I was just like you know? Yeah, no, and yeah, and just go away so I had a real bitter pill to swallow from that. But then and I was like just thought I was through it with it. But then like. 16:25.75 Heather Ah, my. 16:58.10 archpodnet Oh my God yeah. 17:08.95 Andrew Kinkella Or nine months later I got in touch with a smaller publishing company and they were totally into what I was saying and they were great. Um, it was kendall hunt who who I ultimately went with and and those guys were they got it. You know like they got my idea which I thought was so great. Well the other place never really got it. 18:02.66 archpodnet Yeah, nice hello. 17:43.91 Andrew Kinkella You know? so I ultimately turned out really good for me. 17:45.53 Heather I'm I'm curious so you know we're just talking about how do you do this if this is what you know? how do you publish if you want to publish right? At what point do you guys? think that like how do you think people should be thinking. 18:04.95 Andrew Kinkella The. 18:18.65 Heather Whether or not they should publish because um, you know there's a lot of people that want to say they've written a book and they've published a book and just for the ego part of it and I'm just kind of curious. What your what? your um, you know what your thought is on. 18:29.81 Andrew Kinkella Right. 18:50.66 archpodnet Well. 09:27.50 succinctbill And it. 19:05.30 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 19:19.24 archpodnet Um, yeah. 19:00.25 Andrew Kinkella Ah, sure it you do it I mean like I said it's such a. It's such a solo effort that like it has to be your baby. It's just like a dissertation or anything else like like it you have to. 18:54.63 Heather And what point really should you publish should you really publish. 19:12.39 Heather Right. 19:46.80 archpodnet Yes. 19:29.69 Andrew Kinkella Think about it all the time you have to do it anyways. Even when people tell you you shouldn't do it. You're still going to do it like you have to have that drive. It's if it's just some weird ego massage like you're not going to have the drive. You know like you have to have that you have to be like I need to publish this thing and the world means to see it. 19:41.69 Heather That's what I'm saying right. 20:05.39 Andrew Kinkella You know because you have to push yourself through those tough times. Yeah, maybe. 20:00.11 Heather But there's pretty big egos out there that might they actually get them through writing a book that they shouldn't write I've written I have written sorry I've read some books I thought to myself I don't you know I don't know that that they really should have been Britain. Um. 20:32.64 archpodnet Yeah, well. 21:04.80 archpodnet Um, yeah, well I think yeah I think Andrew's right though, you you have to have a passion for it right? It has to be. 20:44.31 Andrew Kinkella Um, well somebody published it. 20:39.79 Heather That is really responsible. Yeah exactly I yeah. 21:13.61 Doug Yeah. 21:32.32 archpodnet Has to be something you really want to do unless it's is like your None book and you're just like what you do now is crank out books right? Then it's becomes like an obligation to find another topic to write a book about I feel like Brian Fagin and Tom King are in that group right? like they're known as book authors. So like what's my next book. But for people who is ah this their first book. It's like. 21:09.67 Heather Um, right. 21:22.23 Heather Sure But right. 22:10.00 archpodnet You're going to go down this. You're not going to make a lot of money on it. You're probably not going to make any money on it coming coming down to the ah roi you're you're probably going to lose a lot more money when you value your time than than you're going to make unless you're writing unless you're writing a textbook that is you know, really expensive and a lot of people buy it then you might actually make some cash but um. 21:54.51 Heather Right. 22:04.87 Andrew Kinkella Right? Oh yeah. 22:11.49 Heather Yeah. 22:47.64 archpodnet For most people I think that first book is just not going to be. You're just not going to make anything except for credibility from it and that's where the topic the the publisher and and how you promote it and all that you know really comes into play. But um, yeah I think ah I think that's where it adds. 22:34.65 Andrew Kinkella Um. 22:41.73 Heather Well self publishishing I think yeah I think Self-p publishing is where I'm thinking you know people can go and publish whatever they want and that's where you don't have that gate. Ah that gatekeeper where you know people are like you know this is not a good idea and um, yeah. 23:28.56 archpodnet Well these days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's let's a doug go go ahead. Doug. 23:13.57 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, ah yeah. 23:42.47 Doug Yeah I was going to say I think there's a couple of things you need to look at one is so I mean obviously we're the Crm podcast but there'll be a couple of people going down the academia route where their department. It has to be a book like that's that's what they have to do to be able to get tenure. 24:24.80 archpodnet Yeah, but. 14:59.11 succinctbill Yeah, yeah. 24:19.49 Doug And there are departments like that around the world. So that's that's basically what you end up with but um I think if people are also thinking about a book. You should really have a deep understanding of the mediums and understand um sorry guys just cough there. 24:18.67 Heather I agree and. 24:49.44 archpodnet Um. 24:54.59 Doug Um, really understand you know a book is a specific type of medium. It has to be a book length ah topic. Um, and you know not everything needs to be a book. So I think that's something else people need to consider is do you just want a book because you want a book. 24:56.31 Heather Yep. 25:27.78 archpodnet That's a good point. 25:02.77 Heather Right? right. 25:28.95 Doug Or do is it the right medium I think that's that's something people need to think about. 25:11.55 Heather Like because it's a it could be expensive. Yeah it. Okay, right. 25:20.41 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, oh that's smart. Yeah, but it's medium and also audience you know what? I mean you must just think like who's actually who actually cares who am I talking to? So yeah I think Doug brings up a great point about um that you know. 25:41.76 archpodnet Um, yeah. 25:53.45 Andrew Kinkella And then based on your audience you can go to the medium that will most serve the audience. Yeah of what you're talking about. 25:55.95 Heather I like Bill's idea that you know, starting with a blog and really kind of testing it out and seeing whether or not and and exactly what Chris was saying is that you know over time you were writing these articles and you realize you know what there's enough here so you have to be patient and not just want to jump into I'm going to write a book. 26:26.78 archpodnet Yeah. 26:12.97 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 26:32.70 Andrew Kinkella Right. 26:54.80 archpodnet Um, ah. 26:35.61 Heather But start writing and figure out really is there's something here that other people haven't done that you have a unique perspective on and you and that you actually have the credibility to write it. There are people that have written books that ah personally it's a little upsetting because you know. 26:52.73 Andrew Kinkella Definitely Yeah, yeah, yes. 27:24.40 archpodnet Oh no. 27:11.43 Heather There's a lot of people that think oh, there's a book on this and they automatically have credibility because the person has the book when that's not true I mean there's a lot of books out there that are that that have a lot of crap in them and you can be sneering people the wrong way. Yeah. 27:41.70 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but see if yeah, but it's like turn that frown upside down kind of thing you see those books and it should give you drive to be like you know what? mine's gonna be better. This is great. Those are crap you know I love stuff like that. 28:03.54 archpodnet Yeah. 27:47.93 Heather Ah, yes, right, right. 28:25.44 archpodnet 1 doug. 28:21.79 Doug So I would also add that um you know, ah part of having a publisher is they can give you support and sometimes they also just wave it through as we've sort of been talking about. Um so you know also like when you're. 28:33.29 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 28:58.47 Doug Beyond medium is also thinking about what you want to get out of having a book. So some people want a book as we've been talking about to like have their street cred or whatever you want to call it. Um, but you know if your if your goal is to actually like. 28:50.75 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 28:52.59 Heather And. 29:30.13 Doug Maybe improve on the topic and you won't really care about street cred um, or you know academic cred credibility or whatever it is I think you can do self-p publishing. Also you can you can hire editors. Um, you can have friends look at it. Um I think there are good ways to have ah. You know as someone else on this podcast who's done um, has done a lot of self-publishing and we've actually so me Chris and Bill self-published ah blogging archeology. Um, you know I think you can you could do a really good job. Probably even a better job than some publishers. 30:29.12 archpodnet Um. 30:08.47 Andrew Kinkella Have. 30:47.19 Doug If you're willing to put the work into it and willing to find people to actually like tell you that's crap cut this You're a horrible writer rewrite. You need that office feedback I think you can get that outside of a um, a publisher. Um, so you know I think we people shouldn't look down on self-publishing if your goal is to get. 30:35.25 Heather Yeah, and. 30:44.39 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, ah yes. 30:58.30 Heather Right? and. 31:06.87 Andrew Kinkella No yeah, but but you have to be honest and it's just like you said Doug it's like if you're willing to put the work in and for me personally knowing myself I'm like there's no way I could ever self-publish anything you know. So I I go to the. 31:25.81 Doug A topic out there or you know spread the knowledge. 31:38.52 archpodnet Yeah. 31:44.23 Andrew Kinkella Outside and I'm happy with my choice but it is a choice. 32:10.80 archpodnet Yeah, and I think I'll finish this segment out with ah some other topics regarding going with a publisher if you self-publish you're you're on your own you're on your own timeline right? So you got to look At. If you're going with a publisher. Why are you going with a publisher. Are you going with a publisher because you've always wanted to publish a book with that publishing house I mean that is kind of a thing for some people right? They're like oh I've always respected these guys I Want to have a book with my name on it and and that publisher that is definitely a reason people choose sometimes but then also the push that. Your editor will give you right you you might need that motivation that push and that advice and because they're they're not going to help you write the book necessarily I mean certain editors are are a little more hands-on than others but they will give you some pointers and they'll go over like a paragraph. This was my experience they would like go over a paragraph or a page and say like okay now do that throughout the book. 32:57.89 Andrew Kinkella M. 33:56.44 archpodnet Because you know you did this everywhere I was like oh son of a bitch. Um, but they don't necessarily edit for content either Sometimes again different editors have different styles. But so if you need that kind of structure That's another good reason to go with a publisher but then also I think one of the biggest reasons to choose the right publisher for your book is. 33:49.44 Andrew Kinkella Right. 34:33.67 archpodnet How are they going to promote it because None of the reasons you're only getting 8 or nine percent is because they should be promoting your book. They should be promoting this and taking it to conferences and putting it in their newsletter and selling your book for you. That's one of the reasons why you go with the publisher is because they have that behind them. It's in their best interest to sell that book and if they don't. Sell other books that are like the book you want to write? Well what are the chances that it's going to do very well you know mine my book never would have been published by Taylor and Francis or Rutledge which is um, under Taylor and Francis because it's just not the kind of book that they do. But since they bought left coast press's catalog. Now my book is has says rutledge on the on the outside of the spine when you buy it and do they promote that book in the last five years or 4 years since they bought left coast press. No not even a little bit. It's never at conferences. It's never anywhere but it's on their website you can find it you can buy it. There. They've raised the price several times which is stupid. But it's just that I would never publish this book with them. This is not the right kind of book to publish with that kind of publishing house. So with that. You know you're better off spending your money on an arcpod net membership. So go to http://apodnet.comforward/membersandbecomea member right? right. 36:20.43 Heather Oh that was smooth Chris that was smooth. 36:37.79 Andrew Kinkella Whoo. 37:01.26 archpodnet So we'll be back in a minute to wrap up this discussion.