00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode None of the serum archeology podcast doug I think you had a comment right before I I ended the segment. 00:06.27 Doug Yeah, it's not going to be as a smooth segue as you're ah you're selling there. But um I was going to say how something that when something you guys had also mentioned um just tricked something as if you're writing a book I mean we've sort of been talking about it as an individual. But. 00:11.50 Andrew Kinkella Fifth. 00:43.17 Doug You know, a lot of times a lot of people sort of team up and it'll be you and someone else writing a book or you and a couple of other people. Um, and also this comes back to sort of like your editor as well is the process of doing a book can take years. Um I mean I mean. 01:18.32 archpodnet Oh. 01:19.59 Doug The the quickest I think you you might be able to get away counting it out in months. Um, if you already have an idea and you're super motivated and you can get everything done but you're talking about a several year process and with that you want to think about like relationships. And that sometimes like when you're going to a publisher. It's not so much the publisher but the editor because you're going to be working with this person for a very long time and they are going to be commenting on something that's going to be very dear to your heart or maybe not you know. And um I think yeah, a lot something else. People need to consider is the relationship. So either relationship between you and your other authors can you stand working with these people closely for the next couple of years. Um, Also you know relationship with your editor. Do you like your editor can they? um. Can they give you honest feedback Will you take honest feedback from them. Um, those are some things people need to Consider. So. 03:10.64 archpodnet Um, yeah, real quick on that my book was essentially written like I mentioned when I showed it to my eventual publisher left coast press and it was thirteen months after that that it was a hardcover book like thirteen months and that's just because of the the proposal process they had to accept the contract and then you know I had an editor and then I had a copy editor and they had to do the cover in the book and just getting it into the the factory to actually get it made you know all that has to go on a cycle so thirteen months and I walked in with None words written right? So that's ah, that's a long time. 02:12.15 succinctbill Yeah, that sounds about right and also you know I'm working on a book I don't know about how many words or so but I think I started it in um, 2018 and it also was largely written too. So I didn't I mean I had to fix a lot of stuff. But. 04:27.80 archpodnet Go head back bill. Yeah. 04:45.94 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:01.42 archpodnet Um, yeah. 02:51.83 succinctbill It was pretty much done and it's still taken 4 years but the other thing I think Doug brought up something important too about the relationships. The other thing you might want to think about is the relationship to your own self because your your emotions are going to get in there a lot right? so. I think that just writing in general if you're the kind of person that writes but doesn't want anyone else to see it then you you have to start with yourself none because the thing that holding you back is your own mind if you're also the other kind of person that's. Pretty much like me that writes and then doesn't want to listen to other people's comments and all that other stuff but you have to just swallow it when it comes to editor's comments. That's another growth ah growth thing too because nobody likes being told that this isn't. 06:19.34 archpodnet Ah. 04:26.11 succinctbill Good or this isn't actually what we want and just delete this entire chapter but a lot of times. That's what you got to hear because what you're writing is not good and it doesn't make any sense and who knows why you even tried to put it in there. So if you don't have other people read your stuff and give you good ah comments. Ah, not just technical comments. You know of course on structure and all that other stuff. But you know just comments on logic and why is this there like you really need other people to help you make this a finished project and if you're the kind of person that can't deal with edits and comments and stuff like that then you once again, you have to start with your own self and then finally. Ah, this is something that you're going to be working on for a long time and you're going to be really really really connected to this thing and at a certain point you just seriously have to let it go because there's only really 2 kinds of books that are out there. The ones that are just ideas in people's minds and the other ones that are finished and published and you know if you ever wanted to get published. 08:24.18 archpodnet Right. 06:19.93 succinctbill You just have to let it go and let those editorial comments and those other decisions that people are making on your work like you just have to let it flow through because if you hold tight on every single Comma and every single change of word and you know cut and you know paragraph deletion. It's never going to get done right. 09:02.98 archpodnet Ah. 08:51.59 Andrew Kinkella So true. So true and it just it feels so good though on that day when you let go you know you're like here you go world. Whatever close enough. 04:31.45 Heather Such a good point. Such a good point. Yeah. 07:09.19 succinctbill And it's like the that's what I imagine in stranger things What they feel when they use the force you know, whatever to just get rid of all your enemies like ah and they all just fly away like okay I'm just going to let it go. 09:31.85 Andrew Kinkella That's right, That's right? Yeah, yeah, it is totally true. 09:49.70 archpodnet Yeah. 09:48.67 Doug I think that's true of like all writing. Basically I mean I'm not a particularly good writer but I can do fairly decent editing and 1 of the hardest things with editing is you can write like a sentence you really love or a paragraph you really love. 05:29.33 Heather S yeah. 10:21.25 Doug But it actually won't fit into what you're writing about and you have to learn to be like cut and paste that into another you know your your word doc of like great ideas that just never happened sort of thing because um, it's true like with a book. You'll have that chapter that you really want to have in there. But it it completely messes up the entire flow of the ah the book and so you you have to be able to accept that you can just cut out things that it's great, but it's not great for what your particular thing is at that moment and that is really tough. 11:29.40 archpodnet Ah. 07:01.49 Heather I think ah Doug brings a really good point up. Um, saying that he's saying and I I don't know he's being humble I'm sure but that he's not a very good writer but he's a good editor and I really we have somebody on my staff that she's like I can't do this because I'm not a good writer. I've never been a good writer. She just had this block in her head that I'm not a good writer. She is absolutely our best editor absolutely and I I think she's a good writer but she still has that in her head. That's not where where she's at, but she's our best editor and so when you're looking for somebody to you know, go over your. Transcript or or whatever it is that you're reading, you're looking for somebody. You're not necessarily looking for the best writer you're looking for somebody who's really a good editor I think to have both is important but don't just like you know say okay I have to have somebody who's written a book before I have to have somebody who's an amazing writer before sometimes sometimes. 13:20.14 archpodnet Ah. 08:54.75 Heather You know the people that are not the best writers are actually really good editors. 13:30.92 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely all right? Well I think in the last half of this segment we should really bring up what most likely none time authors are always wondering is can you make any money doing this right? Can you actually can you actually make any money you know. Thinking of maybe authoring or or publishing as ah as a career almost right and and like like we said before if you're a Tom King or a Brian Fagin you probably can right? It's still not like Harry Potter numbers but you know it's it's. 14:11.73 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 14:36.60 archpodnet It's good numbers more than likely otherwise they wouldn't be able to keep cranking out books like this because it's a long time as we've talked about for the last almost hour. It's a long cycle on getting this done and especially if you're going to put it something together. That's you know, wellearched and wellw written and edited I mean it's ah it's ah a year to a couple of years and or more and. If you're going to do this as a career. Well you have to be able to support yourself doing that. So I I will cut to the cut to the chase right now I I'm still getting checks from Taylor and Francis I get None every June um, my last one was I'd had to pull up my account right here June Twenty Fourth which means payday is coming soon. 15:35.83 Andrew Kinkella Who. 15:51.40 archpodnet As we're recording this. Ah, it's June Fifth so I'm expecting anything from Taylor and frances coming soon in last year which would have been I think the seventh year or None or None nth year my book was out I think last year was because like it was published in 2014 so that would have been the seventh year we're coming up on the eighth year but last year my deposit was. Wait for it $43 and ยข78 sort of that's what I'm talking about ah to be honest, though with like None promotion from either myself or Taylor and Francis I'm kind of shocked that I got that much because like I said. 11:57.73 Heather Drum roll. Ah. 16:21.93 Andrew Kinkella Um, ah, all right money bags. Yeah yeah. 14:24.21 succinctbill I Oo big time big time. Wow oh. 12:08.10 Heather Ah. 16:41.17 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 17:04.64 archpodnet I get 8% if they buy the book from the publisher right? 8% of I think Taylor and frances is selling it for like forty some odd dollars right now which is again ridiculous, it's a $20 book at best. But ah I think they're selling it for 40 something and I get 8% off of that now if you buy it from Amazon which is more than likely where people are getting it I get like. 16:57.90 Andrew Kinkella Truth. 17:27.27 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, right. 17:43.98 archpodnet 5% or four percent or something like that. It's way less if you buy it from another another reseller and if you buy the ebook um I think there's an ebook and I don't think there's an audio book I don't think they did one of those but um I think there's an ebook and I get even less off the ebook. So I'm shocked that it's that much when you're looking at 8% I mean that's like I don't know. 17:57.95 Andrew Kinkella Right. 18:22.60 archpodnet 5100 sales you know or something like that or whatever it is in ah in the like in the year before that and it's calendar year so they stop the billing at the end of the calendar year and then they wait until June to pay you because they figure all that stuff out. So um, but yeah, that's where I'm at with that book and it's been about that. 18:26.50 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yep, that's that's that's my experience to pretty much but I'm brand new to that like my book was just published in January Twenty Twenty two 16:38.35 succinctbill Yeah, they go. 18:56.86 archpodnet Almost every year since I published it. Ah. 19:11.94 archpodnet Um, yeah. 19:03.27 Andrew Kinkella So I've what so far I've gotten is nothing because the check hasn't you know come around yet but my but my sweet deal is better than your sad 8% my friend um I think I I think I'm 12 or something like that and ah but I know dude is I'm um, famous. 17:06.51 succinctbill And. 19:31.94 archpodnet oh yeah None oh man yeah 19:41.67 Andrew Kinkella But ah, but that brings up that is one of the main things people ask you know like how much do you make and I would not go into it thinking you're going to like have a new career because you're not Brian Fagin and you're not Tom King but I would just think of it as a side hustle. 15:34.53 Heather Yeah, yeah, okay. 20:09.44 archpodnet Um, yeah. 18:00.59 succinctbill Well well I oh go ahead. 20:10.67 Andrew Kinkella You know, think of it as something like when that check comes in you go Oh sweet, you know oh that's cool I'll go out to dinner because I wrote this book like you know that's that's what it is. That's that world. So yeah, don't think you're going to get rich. It's just a fun side hustle but it's something you're passionate about and it's worth it. You know. 18:20.33 succinctbill So. 20:41.82 archpodnet No. 20:54.00 archpodnet Yeah. 18:40.53 succinctbill Well, a couple of things on that though because I I think I beat those records since Amazon pays every month. So when you self- publishish on Kindle direct like I have and I have 3 ebooks on there and they I think the most expensive one is like None right so every other one is None 21:06.44 archpodnet Um, oh yeah. 20:54.67 Andrew Kinkella Um, ah yeah. 21:24.44 archpodnet New him. 19:18.75 succinctbill Every every month I get anywhere from 10 to $40 from those 3 ebooks and I and I have for like the last ah I don't know 7 years since I published them or whatever. So that's what happens when you and and I hired editors to edit those books too I think the first one I did it myself and then after that I had. 21:37.22 archpodnet Wow. 21:27.57 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 21:51.12 archpodnet Yeah. 19:58.35 succinctbill A couple other crmmers do like internal reviews on them and then I had a editor actually go through it and you know so that's's ah if you self-ubish then you get the money right? and you put it on there. You're responsible for all the content but you get all the money and it just keeps flowing in in a small stream once again, not enough to retire on. 22:29.72 archpodnet Ah. 22:24.35 Andrew Kinkella Yep. 20:37.29 succinctbill Ah, but the thing that my my wife oh go ahead. 22:51.68 archpodnet what's what's Amazon Is cut is it None yeah 20:48.27 succinctbill I don't remember no no I think I think they're less. Oh yeah, yeah, the publisher gets 70 and Amazon gets 30 right? I can't remember I'll have to look at it. 23:16.36 archpodnet When you when you self-publish I was wondering how what your cut is when you selfp publishish because Amazon definitely takes something for you to publish on Amazon but I just couldn't remember what the percentage was. 21:21.31 succinctbill So I know that there's a fee based on how many kilobytes but it's like pennies per pennies per sale right? like less than a penny even per sale because my books aren't huge. 23:27.75 Doug It. 23:43.98 archpodnet Okay, okay, yeah. 23:43.25 Doug Yeah, and then they also it depends how much you charge for it as well. They take a percentage of it's over like None there's there's a bunch of different. It's a bit complicated but there are yeah yeah. 21:48.57 succinctbill Yeah. 24:12.82 archpodnet Is it. That's no surprise. 21:59.39 succinctbill Yeah, like the the more you try to charge the more they take right? Doug. Yeah yeah. 24:23.52 archpodnet Oh. 19:52.61 Heather So how how about how about the other side we're talking about how much money you make how much money does it cost if you're actually let's say self-publishing a book an actual book like a tangible book. Not not an ebook. 24:21.89 Doug Yeah. 22:41.11 succinctbill Yeah I don't know because I publish online right? so. 24:49.77 Doug Ah, a sense. There's no difference because if you do say print on demand because you're not going to be so if you self-publish you're not going to be able to like do None book 25:04.18 archpodnet Well, the. 25:29.51 Doug Print run I mean you could and then spend the rest of your life hawking them at conferences. Um, but you're you're never going to get into like bookstores or to universities. Um, but you could do basically print ondemand and essentially that so Amazon does that as well and there's a couple of other places and it's the same sort of deal you you basically. 21:10.19 Heather Right? right? right. 23:30.19 succinctbill Yeah. 21:31.41 Heather On her. 23:52.13 succinctbill Yeah. 26:09.55 Doug They'll charge you you know x it'll be so much per well depends. Okay, sorry this is going to get a bit complicated but you know quality of paper so your paperweight is it. Hardback paperback are using glossy cup. Yeah picture color pictures glossy. 22:05.93 Heather Color pictures right? Um, right. 26:30.70 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 24:31.57 succinctbill Yeah. 26:46.84 archpodnet On. 26:43.67 Doug Cover You know it depends on your cover glossy matted.. There's There's a whole bunch of stuff but but essentially you could you get that charge and it could be basically a fixed price and you could pad on top of that wherever you want. So let's say it. You know it costs. $12 plus shipping whatever is where is to publish it. You can then charge like 20 plus um shipping or 25 So it's it's up to you to do that. So doesn't you can basically pass on the unit costs directly to whoever wants that if you're if you're Self-p publishing. 25:18.47 succinctbill Um, yeah. 23:18.25 Heather Right? As long as you can sell it. 25:39.10 succinctbill Well well and so the other the other piece too doug because I remember doing this through create space and they got bought by Amazon you you do? Doug's exactly right? you choose the paper and you choose whether it's going to be paperback and what the size and dimensions of it are going to be too so that matters like the bigger. 27:52.45 Doug Yeah. 26:16.39 succinctbill Bigger book with more glossy images is going to cost more to create. However, ah the person who buys it they get a discount based on how many they get so if they just get 1 and they pay you know like whatever you set None but if they buy 20 of them then it could be down to like $21 and that if they buy a None of them. You know it could be down to 17 23:58.37 Heather Right. 26:54.51 succinctbill But it only costs Amazon like 13 or $14 to produce each book. So once again, you you set the price but you also set the break on the deal and you want to have an incentive for them to buy more of them. 24:47.41 Heather Um, right? Yeah I would I I know this is just kind of a little side conversation here separate from what we've been talking about which is just actually writing books. But. 29:25.52 archpodnet Okay. 25:24.83 Heather Um I did want to talk a little bit about ah journals which is the none thing that you know those of us that are you know, start off in academia. That's the none experience that we have in publishing our actual written work and I'm curious. What everybody thinks about where you know the future of journals is. Um, there was the reason I asked there was a ah recent um email that went out to members and for the California Archeology Journal and they literally had no submissions like Kathleen Hall was begging for people to submit and still is and ah. 28:50.50 succinctbill Who. 26:42.23 Heather You know I think that it is a we're seeing kind of a paradigm shift in that that used to be used to be competitive used to be difficult to get in certain journals to get yourself published and ah now we have like just within a few years we have journals that are begging for submissions. 29:13.43 succinctbill Um, yeah. 29:31.70 succinctbill Um, yeah I have my own ideas but I super want to hear what Doug has to say. 27:16.37 Heather And I'm curious What everybody's opinion is on why that is the case. 31:58.54 archpodnet Yeah. 31:52.13 Doug I yeah so I've I've done the research on this. Um and the reason you're having that happen is so like the number of journals is skyrocketing like I'll I'll try to put it in the show notes I did a paper maybe five years ago for um. 27:44.95 Heather My hand. 32:06.59 Andrew Kinkella The. 32:28.19 Doug Yay or um, know ah the german one one of those it was it was one of the open access journal german journals df web'll I'll send the link. Um, but basically like it looks like exponential growth like you see I've tracked. You basically have a. You know, not a lot journals and then it hits about the 1980 s 1990 s and essentially we now have last count I had and this is not just english languages like None journals. Um, and that's probably not anything. We're probably pushing a thousand archeology journals. 29:00.25 Heather Now. 33:38.10 Doug Um, and the reason behind that is consolidation. Um, so you know a lot of the publishers are now being bought out and they're they're sort of turning into monopolies. Um, but what's driving that is ah universities. And the big bundle. So what happens is the publishers will bundle together all their their journals so they say look you know for a low fee of what you know None Um, you can get 2000 journals. Um, and everyone's. Looks at the owners and like okay 2000 journals that's better than like 500 journals for the same price. Um, not caring about quality. So what we've seen is just none of organizations just start creating journals left and right because you know it costs them almost no money to create. A digital journal even a print one costs no money for those big publishers and um, almost all universities now do ah bundled big deals with a publisher so they're not just buying one journal they're buying None journals and so it's all about the numbers. So um, you know Manny was a big one before it got bought out. Um, and started just creating journals left and right um they they also bought a lot of people they bought ah left coast press journals they bought the other smaller one at Aira I think um, there's another one they bought. 36:17.94 archpodnet Oh. 36:19.99 Doug And then ah Cambridge ah is now becoming a big one where they were adding more journals like it's basically become somewhat of an arms race to juice produce as many journals because it has to do with the big bundles for universities and that's where the money's at um, what that's. 36:40.75 Andrew Kinkella But see on the flip side on on the flip side I'm what I noticed though is if you're going for tenure. It's always the same 2 or 3 journals that they want to see you in so that's what I why I think it's so interesting this sort of dichotomy. 37:19.90 archpodnet Yeah. 35:07.67 succinctbill Um, yeah. 37:13.69 Doug Yeah there's also another paper that went out. Ah this published very fifteen years ago by ah Aaa American Anthropology and it really depends on the university so some universities literally have you need to be published in these 3 journals anything else. You didn't publish they they just look as like you, you wasted your time and you did you know why were you wasting your time publishing anywhere else. But that's really mixed. Um, it really depends and then there's a lot of other places that are just like yeah you know, whatever just send in your tenure application. Yeah, put a bunch of journals in there. Here's a box fill it up and we'll see you at tenure review. So. It's really mixed um and and yeah, so basically we're being driven by a ton of journals. Ah because of the economics of it's not even has to do with archeology. It's just the economics of publishing. 38:48.96 archpodnet Yeah. 39:12.15 Doug And universities buying big bundles of Journals. Um, and that might change once everything flips open access. But um, at that point it still does they still have no incentive to have fewer journals because you know it costs them No money. Open access even if they only publish 1 or 2 articles a year. It's It's free money coming in I I exaggerate with the free money I know there's some minor costs and stuff. But um, yeah's basically there's you have so many places you could publish or shop around so now even if a paper doesn't get published. 39:59.12 archpodnet Yeah. 40:25.47 Doug And your first venue you have I don't know an english language I forget what? maybe 3 or 400 different archeology journals I'm talking like pretty much pure archeology if you break out into like museums and general heritage. Add a couple hundred extra on top of that. 40:44.94 archpodnet Yeah. 41:02.34 archpodnet Yeah, correct. 38:51.77 succinctbill Yeah, it's right? but the other critical factor too. Doug is that there's just fewer professors who can ever write anything and it's pretty much professors that are writing these articles so you know you got fewer professors that are on the tenure track and more adjuncts. 40:59.59 Doug I'm sorry guys we're probably going over time now. 39:28.11 succinctbill That means people who are overworked and you know they're not going to get their job. It's almost impossible for them to publish or get hired after a few years so that's another huge thing. There's just fewer people who are writing for this stuff at a time when there's more journals and. 41:43.66 archpodnet On the. 41:59.62 archpodnet Yeah, okay, well on that happy note I think we're gonna end this podcast at least a regular part of the podcast. However, as you can see. We do have a lot more to talk about on journal power journal. Publishing which is more than likely the route that anybody who wants to publish and become an author ah is going to go is is more than likely the journal route just because as we've stated book publishing is still kind of like you know, still a little special in the fact that there's more gatekeepers in in book publishing unless you self-publish. So. We're going to do that in the bonus segment. So if you're a member head over to your member pages and find this episode. You'll find the ad free version with again. No ads and you'll find it typically a few days early but you're already listening to it. So it's already out and the bonus segment will be listed right there with the episode. In the bonus pages not in the regular pages because this is a benefit if you're not a member head over to http://arcpodnet.comforward/members. It's only none a month I think I said per day one time which would be you know we'd all be driving Bentley if that were the case but it's not it's None and it's I think 20% discount if you get it annually so it's actually pretty affordable. Helps us keeps the lights on and you get a lot of value for that. So here. We go. We're going to do the bonus segment next? um, again head over to those pages and if you're not a member http://artpodnet.comforward/members backm sorry we'll see you guys next time. 44:45.39 Doug Um, goodbye ah, you're prepared for it. Chris you were prepared for it. 44:57.72 archpodnet Jesus Christ all right all right for for this portion I know right? Well for this for this portion Doug is right? Let's do the outro real quick and then we'll do the bonus segment I'm gonna keep this recording and well. 42:48.77 succinctbill Um, ah. 45:21.37 Doug Oh I'm done I said my goodbye. 45:36.46 archpodnet Ah, hear you yeah, that's what editing does? Okay, thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye doug. 43:26.77 succinctbill Ah. 45:45.19 Andrew Kinkella See you guys next time. 43:44.17 succinctbill Goodbye. 41:30.33 Heather Thanks for listening everyone. 46:06.52 archpodnet Guys allll just waiting just waiting and Doug I'm just gonna just gonna bring it back in. He's even muted all right. We're go. We're gonna edit it.