00:00.52 archpodnet Welcome everybody to a special episode of the cerm archeology podcast we're recording this on July Thirteenth two Thousand and twenty two a few days ago. 24 year old archeologist Kalin Gurkey and I hope I'm pronouncing her name right. Her first day as a field tech collapsed and died from what's being called a sudden medical event while working for Shreve Park cultural resource analysts in the kissate national forest the cassatchi district in nachitoches parish this is all down in the Louisiana area. The national weather service reports that the temperature was °f with a heat index of over none and today we're going to talk about safety speaking up when you don't feel right about your body or situation and knowing when to say it's too much joining me on this conversation is Andrew in California. 00:49.34 Andrew Kinkella So hey guys. 00:53.20 archpodnet Heather also in California and Rachel at the other end of the ah Rv for me in British Columbia Canada so yeah so I mean we. 00:53.45 Heather Hi everyone. 01:00.90 Heather Um. 01:00.71 Rachel A guys. So. 01:07.26 archpodnet Rachel and I were talking about this yesterday when the when the news kind of broke on this and we saw it on Facebook and we just said we got to put something out what we're going to say right up front here is we're not going to talk about the company. She was working for It's not part of this conversation. This particular conversation. Um, you know we're not going to discuss that for for. For the reasons that we're just talking about safety right? We're talking about safety. We're talking about personal responsibility and speaking up for yourself and and just what you can do to I guess not put yourself in a situation that could put you in in danger if not mortal danger. So Heather I think we'll just start with you because I mean you're. You're you're running of the people on this call right? Now you're running large field crews or at least multiple people on on multiple projects and you know you're in Southern California you're it's hot down there. It's not quite as humanid as it is in Louisiana it's probably not human at all sometimes depending on where you're at, but you are dealing with. Situations where where people could be putting themselves in harm whether it's from heat-related injuries to you know, climbing up the sides of mountains to you know, monitoring around heavy equipment and stuff like that I'm curious as to how you prep people or maybe how your hr preps people. For how to deal with situations. They don't think they should be in or when they think that their their physical readiness isn't quite where it should be or something like that I'm I'm just curious how you you deal with that just from the start. 02:31.65 Heather Sure So when we bring somebody on first and foremost which I think is really important in culture and Crm is that people should be training not only their full-time staff or their part-time staff. They should be training as needed staff to because actually as needed is who's gonna be. 02:46.14 archpodnet Um. 02:50.65 Heather More often than not the you know your crew is made predominantly of as needed employees and so we have an orientation that's aimed towards everyone so we train everyone as needed full time part time and it starts with um we have specific I mean. Literally to get through orientation. It can take you 3 4 None of like 8 hour days that's a lot of that's administrative but a lot of it is safety and so we we train people from the very beginning but you're also throwing a lot of information at them. 03:13.60 archpodnet The. 03:25.48 Heather And you may be throwing information safety-wise that they just haven't grown up that way and they didn't grow up in a ah family that thought that way or maybe their family. You know doesn't you know isn't outdoors people. Whatever. So now. We also have ongoing training so people are required to and they get paid. For their training and so we have lots of different we have ah texts that go out we have when Hinda Indexes go Up. We have training ongoing training. We have emails that come out as a reminder. 03:58.73 archpodnet Um. 04:00.40 Heather None of the things that's hard is that when you're throwing a lot of things at people they tend to ignore them so they try to use my company tries to use different kinds of modes of communication and so that's None thing the other is and I think it's probably 1 of the most important things a none most important thing is. Looking out for each other the buddy system and not only does that where you're looking out for people but encouraging this culture of it's okay for you to say I don't feel well um so the more that you communicate that the more people feel at ease where a lot of times you know I know. 04:30.68 Rachel And. 04:39.30 Heather Chris and I somewhat the same we're all about the same age I think I think I'm a little older than you and Rachel but um, there's there's this like concept where you can't you know you're the tough person you can't you know, talk about those types of things and I do think that culture is changing and that's good. Um, then the number one to me is. 04:42.69 Rachel The. 04:44.90 archpodnet Ah. Um, yeah. 04:58.23 Heather Your own personal responsibility and no matter what kind of company you work for whether it's a company like mine That's very safe safety oriented or you're working for a company that is not the the responsibility is yours and sometimes it's uncomfortable to stand up for yourself, but your responsibility is yours and to know your own body but also to educate yourself. 05:15.95 archpodnet Ah. 05:17.55 Heather Because there's a lot of things that we were talking about earlier. One of the things as far as heat related is that you know this ah calen. Unfortunately she lived in Montana and she ah had just recently moved to Texas and then all of a sudden she's in Louisiana and she's going from cool. Try. 05:32.50 archpodnet Yeah. 05:35.48 Heather Ah, location to a very hot and humiliation and your body needs to build up tolerance to heat. Um, and so I think just knowing your own body and educating yourself is important. 05:36.94 Rachel And. 05:45.90 archpodnet Yeah, and I mean that's all very well said and I think I think one of the things that I'm I'm also curious to know is the the big problem with field text especially and as needed employees is. You're always worried about your job. You're always worried about. 06:02.40 Heather And. 06:04.97 archpodnet You know am I going to be employed Here. You know after this project let alone if something happens and I have to bail on this project. What's the company going to think of me are they going to blacklist me are they never going to hire me again. I I think that is one of the biggest things like you can have all the. Promotional things that say drink water you know, tell somebody you're not feeling well stuff like that. But in the end if you physically can't do the job I think that people need to just realize that yeah different companies are going to have different policies but some companies may not be able to place you again and it's okay. 06:20.92 Heather Yes. 06:35.61 archpodnet For you to just leave. It's okay for you to just say listen I can't either work in this region or I can't work on this particular project or whatever the case may be and go you know it might be real hardship for you but go find something else to do I think Rachel's got her hand up. 06:48.57 Rachel Yeah I just I really really identified with Kailen and I think it's because I can remember vividly showing up to my first day as a field tech and having no idea what I was about to put my body through. 07:05.63 archpodnet Yeah. 07:06.92 Heather Um. 07:07.28 Rachel And what the next you know None ears of doing fieldwork was going to be like and working in different really harsh environments and really harsh conditions and you just it's just a lot and even though people tell you bring this much water wear this kind of clothing get these kind of boots do all these things that are meant to be for your personal safety. When you're brand new and it's your first day. It's it's easy to think well, that's a little extreme I don't need three liters of water who drinks three liters of water in a day and then you run out at two o'clock and you know you face the consequences of that I've been that person and and was too embarrassed to speak up. 07:30.35 Heather Um, ah right. 07:44.32 Rachel And say oh I ran out of water even though we still have three more hours in the day you know you just I have been the person who just powers through so I think the reason I wanted to be in this conversation is to hopefully help empower new and young field texts to stand up for themselves and. And it's okay, it is okay to say that you're out of water or that you just cannot climb one more hill your legs are going to collapse or as in the case that Chris and I experienced our fingers were so cold in Ohio 1 time that I'm pretty sure we almost got frostbite like it's okay to say those things because if you don't speak up for yourself. 08:07.81 archpodnet Ah. 08:15.68 Heather A. 08:22.37 Rachel Then the the consequences could be so bad. 08:25.29 archpodnet Yeah. 08:27.17 Heather Yeah I think um, you know? Yes Chris you're right? There's there's this fear that people aren't going to you know companies aren't going to use you again and that's really easy for me to say this what I'm about to say from a perspective of having a full time job and not. Having to worry about it and also being in management and knowing that I don't treat employees like that. That's a really privileged position I'm in but I will say from perspective because I've been there I have been there with that thought that I'm not going if I were to say something I'm not going to get hired again as an as needed employee. 08:51.62 archpodnet Ah. 09:04.29 Heather If a company treats you that way you it's really, you're going. You're already going down the wrong road. So maybe it's actually a good indicator So when you speak up for yourself. First of all, again, we talked about this before. Don't go in with an antagonistic attitude thinking that they are going to vilify you for for. 09:08.73 Rachel Who. 09:23.53 Heather Speaking up for yourself just you know communicate clearly I'm not feeling well give them a chance to do the right thing if they don't Ah, it's an uncomfortable position right? then and there and you have to fight you know you have to do? What's right for you. But at least you now know. 09:28.76 archpodnet And. 09:39.93 Heather What kind of company they are or you at least know what kind of supervisor that person is and that's actually power knowledge is power and it's time to move on because it's not going to get better from there. So so it's it's sometimes good to know those things and um, as as uncomfortable as it might be. 09:42.69 Rachel Um, and. 09:46.73 archpodnet Um. Yeah. 09:59.70 Heather Now coming from somebody whose experience have been in this for a while I just made a stupid mistake last year where we were in awful conditions in the Coachella valley. It was like ° we started work at 5 am um just so that we could start. 10:03.76 archpodnet Ah. 10:14.75 Rachel The who. 10:16.59 archpodnet Js. 10:18.27 Heather Working and it was so bad that um I at some point. Ah the None my 2 partners I was working with they're like Heather you know you're going to sit down right now in the shade and they ran and got the ah the truck and they brought it around and put me in it. To cool me down because I literally was looking and I was pushing myself like so I'm fifty years old and they're almost half my age and sometimes I forget that I I want to keep up and I'm like why am I giving myself such a hard time I'm I'm twice their age you know. 10:39.63 archpodnet Ah. 10:44.81 Rachel Um. 10:53.25 Heather So even somebody who's been in it for a while makes stupid stupid decisions and you know you have to give yourself a break but you you have a responsibility that was on me nobody pushed that on me at at all that was on me not taking care of myself and taking personal responsibility. 11:10.24 archpodnet What it it it does I was going to mention it was about 2015 or something like that it was um, it was down in it was down in Imperial Valley California in. 11:10.69 Rachel That sounds familiar Chris doesn't it did that happen to you sometime recently. 11:11.97 Heather Thank goodness I did have buddies. Yeah. 11:29.98 archpodnet September and it was just stupid hot it was stupid hot and my colleague and I were you know just going up and down sand dunes and it was just so bad and we were we we in those really hot miserable areas. We like to when we're transacting just like parallel transects we like to go. I like to do a transect that's away from the vehicle in this we were doing squares basically so away from the vehicle in the bottom end of the transect and then you know doing north south or whatever it is back towards the vehicle. So by the time I started to but time I started to realize that I was actually. Probably extremely dehydrated and I was drinking a ton of water too. By the way it was just leaching it right back out of me and by the time I realized I was probably getting some kind of heatated Josh and you know leading to like a heat strokeke or something like that. Ah it was too late right? like I could barely get to the truck and my colleague we'd stopped to take a little break and she is just like. 12:08.40 Heather Go ahead. 12:22.42 archpodnet I was like you know what I don't like feel super great and she immediately was just like we're going to the truck and we just we sat there. We had some cold drinks there we flashed turn on the Ac you know, just trying to cover myself get out of the heat and and I instantly started to feel better, but it was we were done for the day like we were this is it. Let's just go home and come back and. 12:37.40 Heather Gap and. 12:41.95 archpodnet And working down there and then working up at China lake in that same time frame. You're you're right I mean you do some things that you have to do and sometimes the field texts I mean to be honest, sometimes field texts complain about it but we were we had up to a 2 hour drive to get out to None of the ranges when we were working China lake Nava weapon center and in the just dead heat of the summer just wasn't going to fly so we were leaving it 3 3 30 in the morning so we could be out there at none light where it was just beyond the sun coming up so it was light enough to see artifacts because we still have to do archeology and ah and that's what we had to do you know we're having lunch at Nine o'clock in the morning and we're off by None 13:18.34 Heather Yeah, yep. 13:19.69 archpodnet 12 and we're and we're getting um and then we're going to bed at four o'clock in the evening because you know we got to get up at 2 so it was just it was a weird time but you do what you have to do in order to you know, make that right now somewhere like down in Louisiana there's almost nothing you can do to make that right. It is hot at two o'clock in the morning. 13:36.35 Rachel Um, yeah. 13:37.80 archpodnet In the summertime and it is just it is just I don't know and the humidity. It's just terrible. Yeah, and Andrew I was going to ask for your opinion on this now. 13:38.19 Heather And the humidity. The humidity is. 13:40.25 Andrew Kinkella Right? right? right? And well first luckily I'm the only one here who's never done anything stupid. So I feel like I Just don't belong. What. 13:52.60 Heather We hold on. Let's let's ah trick yeah let'squee in the laugh track. 13:53.41 archpodnet Ah I'm sure but I. 13:55.26 Rachel Ah, sir her. 13:59.66 Andrew Kinkella What is what is what is this weird stupid thing. No I've learned from all the stupid things I've done what what I would say going off Chris what you were just talking about is man the humidity factor you know in a place like Louisiana like I just got back from Belize right? I was in Belize. 14:10.68 Rachel In here. 14:14.51 archpodnet Yeah. 14:17.18 Andrew Kinkella You know last week for for a weekend I and it just came all right back to me people even in California they think they know heat. But they don't so I could see somebody even from California going to someplace like Louisiana and really having these same same problems. Yeah, and you know I have a couple. 14:19.81 archpodnet Um. 14:24.32 Heather Yeah, yeah, no true. Absolutely yeah. 14:27.59 archpodnet Um, yeah. 14:31.76 Rachel You. 14:35.78 Andrew Kinkella A couple things that I've learned from doing like jungle archeology where it's just so sweaty and hot. Um, when people say you'll drink up to a gallon of a day that's true. You know it seems like it's not but it is I will also say there's never such thing as carrying too much water. 14:45.21 archpodnet Yeah. 14:48.80 Rachel Over. 14:53.54 archpodnet Right. 14:54.67 Rachel Yeah. 14:55.27 Andrew Kinkella 1 ah, one of my old professors used to say oh you have too much water at the end of the day pour it on your head. It's like yeah exactly you know, relax, cool off. Um I would also say a couple tricks I've learned. 15:00.10 Rachel Did it. He. 15:00.67 Heather But yeah, you. 15:03.91 archpodnet And. 15:09.61 Andrew Kinkella In the early morning if you know you're going out on a day that's just going to be humid horrible just like this day was right? this Monday in Louisiana drink as much water as you can right before you leave I mean drink water to pain. That's right? but really that morning. 15:16.37 archpodnet Um, yeah. 15:23.74 Heather And then Nate the night before to yeah yeah, like. 15:26.41 Rachel And. 15:29.59 Andrew Kinkella Really that morning like right before to to pain because then your body's carrying the water so like drink water to pain then put at least a gallon in your backpack and stuff. Yes I know it's heavy, but it's worth it. The other thing I always tell my students um and it this sounds funny but it's serious. 15:33.27 archpodnet Um, and. 15:47.54 Andrew Kinkella Archeology is not worth dying for So um, listen like you guys have been saying listen to your body. You know your body knows and your mind does too that little voice inside when you're walking and you're like I'm pretty sure this is really stupid. You know? ah. 15:48.91 Heather Yeah, right up. 15:48.96 archpodnet Ah. 15:49.27 Rachel Bright. 16:03.26 Rachel Have. 16:03.57 Heather You have. 16:06.10 Andrew Kinkella Pretty sure we've gone too far and you start to race against others or something like we talked about before you know you're like oh I got to look okay for everyone else none and no, no, no, no, no that little voice I mean what are you doing? You're surveying what in a desert or something. It's all right? It's still going to be there tomorrow. Um. 16:22.43 Heather Right? I. 16:22.78 archpodnet Ah. 16:23.43 Rachel And. 16:25.55 Andrew Kinkella I I would also say that every time I've ever stopped something and I've done this both in academics and in Crm where I stopped the day early. It was my call and I was just like screw it. You guys were going back? Um I was never fired I might have gotten a couple you know. 16:35.80 Heather Real. Yep. 16:43.85 Andrew Kinkella Side glances or whatever for an afternoon. But so what those were from fools who didn't understand and um and it was always the right call I've never looked back and been like man I should have pushed everyone harder you know I never thought that once if anything. 16:45.15 archpodnet Um, sure. Yeah. 16:48.65 Heather Yes, Amen oh. 16:49.14 Rachel You want. 16:57.45 archpodnet Him. 16:58.10 Rachel Right. 17:02.54 Andrew Kinkella Every time I can think of where I did that I'm like man I should have called it 15 minutes earlier you know? Yes, it's it's nothing. 17:05.77 Heather And what are you saving? you're saving what 15 minutes a half an hour and you know and when you do that when you make that call it puts everyone at ease and you know what you you may be answering to 1 person above you. But how about the 15 people. 17:11.22 Rachel A. 17:16.13 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 17:24.13 Heather That are looking to you for for guidance of our leadership and you now automatically now they trust you? Um, they'll go to the ends of the earthf for you I mean I might be exaggerating a little bit but they'll at least go to the ends of the survey for you, you know and when when they hear right there. 17:24.42 Andrew Kinkella Yes. Um, get absolutely no, It's true. Yes, yeah. 17:35.18 Rachel Um, end of the transect I'll be there. 17:37.60 archpodnet Um. 17:43.79 Heather And you know you're going to get a lot more out of people and this it's not a manipulative thing. It's just an honest thing if you are backing them up. People will go um the extra mile for you because they trust you. It's not a payment reciprocity necessarily it is I Trust you So you know what. 17:47.10 Andrew Kinkella Now. 17:53.70 Andrew Kinkella Yes, no. 17:53.95 archpodnet Um, no. 18:00.52 archpodnet All like. 18:03.90 Andrew Kinkella Right? right? It's called leadership remember that leadership. You know, like that's that's what it is and you're absolutely right? Heather I mean after I've done stuff like that. How many times did people come up to me in private and go man Andrew thank you so much for doing that you know like like that kind of stuff happens again and again because. 18:03.12 Heather I'm going to do more because I know you have my best interest at heart. Yes, Ah, yeah. 18:09.36 Rachel And 50 18:16.81 Heather Yes, like like that. 18:22.65 Andrew Kinkella In the grand scheme. It is obviously the right call like like we're dying out here literally we're sweating to death. It's None out let's stop the madness right? and it's okay, you know. 18:23.71 Heather Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, yeah I I would like to I'd like to consider and this is I Just ah so awful for her for her for her parents and you know let's. 18:31.39 Rachel Know yeah. 18:38.93 Andrew Kinkella Um, yes. 18:43.83 Heather Let's just look at and this is not at all. Um you know, putting anything on her at all. But it's something that we need to think about right? So at her age. Um, she's young. She you know most people they're young think they're invincible and you don't know what your body can do So let's say if. 18:56.83 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 19:00.41 archpodnet Um. 19:03.40 Heather Let's say you're an archaeologist and you weren't really into sports people that have been grew up with sports you kind of know your body a little bit better. But what if you're what if you weren't and so now you're putting yourself all of a sudden you're going from like 0 to 60 and you're expecting your body to do things. That's never done before and so you need to. 19:08.51 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 19:17.61 Andrew Kinkella Gray. 19:21.91 Heather Understand Also that there's you know that there are things about your body. You don't understand so you need to you know, educate yourself. You need to really listen to your body like we're all all saying and um and the other thing is is that I think a lot of young people. Do not go and get physicals because they just. 19:31.53 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 19:37.89 Andrew Kinkella Right. 19:40.52 Heather You know they've gone to so they've done physicals for for school right? maybe but they're in their twenty s who goes and gets a yearly physical a lot of people I know I didn't you know? So um, so you know these are things that could be checked like maybe ah hopefully. 19:42.58 Andrew Kinkella No. Not didn't either. 19:47.58 Rachel Right? right. 19:50.30 archpodnet Crag asked. 19:56.27 Heather You know who who knows maybe maybe she had an underlying condition that she didn't even know about and these are things that we go and we require athletes to go and take physicals I Really think that even if companies aren't going to do it I think that one of the things that professors should be sharing is. 19:57.58 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah. 19:59.64 archpodnet Spread. 19:59.99 Rachel Perhaps. 20:14.33 Heather Before you go into this job and if you're really focused on field work. You should really go get a physical see if there is something That's maybe a little off. Ah you know in your body and you know what? maybe it's not a deal breaker. Maybe it's just something that now you know this about your body so you know you have to go in and be. 20:20.68 Andrew Kinkella Write. 20:21.60 archpodnet Um. 20:28.66 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, right I literally had a physical today that was what I couldn't record earlier because at one o'clock I had a physical and unfortunately for you all I'm not going to die so ah deal with it deal with it. 20:32.49 Heather Prepared in one way or another. Yeah wow. 20:36.49 Rachel I. 20:38.38 archpodnet Nice. 20:44.20 Rachel Ah. 20:44.77 archpodnet All right I already written out of the show. 20:46.25 Heather But who's going to say that's what happens. 20:47.64 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah to back I'm still here babies up I think negative one? Yeah no, never. 20:52.90 Heather But how many how many physicals did you do Andrew in your 20 in your twenty s yeah me too. Yeah and and we are yeah yeah, me, yeah, me there and I'm in 50 20:59.82 Rachel Yeah, same in fact I Still don't do them and I'm in my thirty s now. So what does that make me. Yeah. 21:00.00 archpodnet Um. 21:05.62 Andrew Kinkella Right? Actually actually you know what I think I had to have one. The first time I went to Belize I think they wanted it. So yeah, so funnily enough I think I had one? yeah. 21:10.67 Heather I. Oh that makes yeah smart. We should do that I really do think that that you know knowledge is power and so you know that is None more thing. What does it take you know, just go get a physical you can go to urgent care. They don't cost much and just. 21:14.38 Rachel Um, ah yeah, yeah, yeah. 21:20.41 archpodnet Um, ah. 21:23.74 Andrew Kinkella Um, right? yeah or student health like student Health is golden for that? yeah. 21:29.48 archpodnet Um. 21:32.63 Heather Or student. Yes, that's while you're still a student. Yep. 21:34.54 Rachel Um, so I I kind of wanted to shift the conversation to like the company responsibility and I know we're not going to talk about the company specifically and what they may or may not have done because we don't know and we're not going to speculate or cast blame or do anything like that. 21:36.60 archpodnet Rachel. 21:49.99 Heather Right. 21:53.86 Rachel Obviously but I think when you're talking about personal safety. You kind of it's you you sort of have to be reaching towards each other you know like you as the employee do and then the company also as well and I just wonder when you're in these extreme scenarios If if there are things that the company should be doing like. 21:59.24 Heather Ah. 22:13.45 Rachel You know when like forcing extra breaks. Maybe you take ah a 10 minute break every hour or something like that and you you make sure everybody is drinking water appropriately and stuff like that and I mean I don't know if you can even do that can you stand there and like force a person to to drink water I don't know but but I feel like it. 22:13.57 Heather Yep. 22:16.76 Heather Ah. 22:29.48 Andrew Kinkella Um, I've done that? yeah. 22:32.82 Heather Pure pressure. Ah, ah. 22:32.93 Rachel Yeah I mean you might have to right? and it's an a right? but it's like we're saying these younger young field techs who haven't maybe been in the outdoors a lot I'm making an assumption. Obviously we don't know anything about Kalin here specifically but just in general I've worked with. 22:45.36 Heather Yeah, sure. 22:49.60 Rachel People who were young who'd never been in the field they didn't know how to really handle themselves in an extreme environment all day long while also being physically active all day long and you just have to you have to be looking out for them. So I I kind of feel like there is some responsibility on the company to both teach. The. 22:57.71 Andrew Kinkella Um, ah. 23:07.71 Heather And. 23:07.71 Rachel Safety measures. But then also make sure there's people on the crew who are watching out for the people who may not have as much experience or have as much know how when it comes to that stuff. 23:16.50 Andrew Kinkella Um. 23:17.28 Heather Absolutely well, there's there are very specific. Um heat you know, related trainings and Osha has guidance osha's actually rewriting their guidance when it comes to heat indexes and heat related. um um environments but 23:25.61 Rachel Um. 23:35.95 Heather You know there are very specific like you have to provide Shade Osha Bocaosha I don't know if there's other ah other states I'm sure many or most states have that but there you have to provide shade now. Sometimes there's natural shade and in this case I don't know from the pictures that look like there probably was natural shade. Um. 23:38.71 Rachel And I think. 23:53.47 Rachel Um. 23:54.24 archpodnet Nothing. 23:55.76 Heather But that's 1 thing they it's like that's a no like that's you have to do that osha requires it so at least in California they do so um, you know there's that sort of thing I actually worked on a project for 5 years and they had these I was it called wet bulb. 23:59.44 Rachel What. 24:14.62 Heather Ah, global temperature and it was an a machine that they would put out and it would tell them ah because heat and indexes are good but they can be deceptive and so this is supposed to be the best regular best under. So ah, reader of heat and how it can impact people. 24:15.27 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 24:33.70 Heather And they had this reader and they would as soon as the alarm went off that meant everybody had to stop and they they literally there was no choice I mean I don't know if they didn't force us to drink but there was no choice. We had to stop and we could not do anything and we had to go under the shade and so you know those are things that. 24:38.78 Andrew Kinkella Are. 24:40.69 archpodnet Um, the. 24:42.76 Rachel A. 24:51.55 Heather Um, I think there's a lot of companies that don't know osha the way they should. There's a lot of crm companies that are doing the best that they can some that aren't but there are a lot of companies that are they don't have a specific ah Hr or safety coordinator. There's a lot of companies that don't have that and so. 24:55.51 Rachel Is. 25:10.13 Heather They're not trained. They don't even know where to look like they know osha but it's not all that intuitive and so they don't even know the rules and ah so I think a lot of times that's where companies are failing is because they're just they don't know and so they're not. 25:11.17 Rachel Um, right. 25:12.29 Andrew Kinkella You know. 25:23.65 archpodnet No. 25:26.67 Heather Doing what they need to do to keep their employees safe. 25:28.57 Rachel Yeah, it's like it's got to be a top down thing too right? like the the people at the top need to be training the the project managers on how important safety is and then they need to train their crew Chiefs on how important safety is so that the crew Chiefs are looking out for the people underneath them in the field who might. 25:29.15 archpodnet Yeah, and and um. 25:38.66 Heather A. 25:48.24 Rachel Be in danger and they don't even realize it so the training aspect of it just to look out for the people that are working under you I think is so important, especially with with brand new people I Just keep coming back to the fact that she was brand new. She had not probably experienced this kind of environment before and. 26:04.47 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 26:07.43 Rachel Probably through like anxiety or fear or something just was afraid to speak up and and then you know we lose somebody who was so young you know it could have true. Yeah. 26:13.37 Heather Or I can't it. It could have come on her just quickly too. I mean who who knows who knows but I think again, you can't train what you don't know and so you know I think you're saying top down. Absolutely I agree with you I think top-down meaning. 26:16.42 Andrew Kinkella You know. 26:25.38 Rachel Yeah. 26:32.97 Heather It needs to happen as a as ah, an industry right? So there needs to be more push for that on an industry level because again there are a lot of small companies that I do believe are doing the best that they can but they don't have the money to have a safety director or a hr even AHR director and so um. 26:35.00 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 26:35.49 Rachel Um, yeah. 26:36.90 archpodnet But. 26:52.64 Heather You know if we had some industry like rpa were to come out with certain industry standards I think that would be great. Um, because otherwise it's just not gonna happen people I mean I don't me I work for a great company with safety and everything I'm so busy right now that I just I can't even take care of myself. You know, um. 26:56.27 Rachel Oh. 27:02.16 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 27:10.35 archpodnet Um. 27:10.43 Rachel Right. 27:12.65 Heather It's It's ah let alone take the time to sit back and do something on an admin level that doesn't make you money or that doesn't get your project done something that's separate from actually and a project goal is is difficult and it's not going to happen. So I think I think on industry level. 27:29.92 Rachel Um. 27:30.21 Heather It would be helpful. 27:30.26 archpodnet Yeah, and one of the things is make me think of this current discussion and then Andrew talking about leadership is I think I've worked for some companies that were a little too micromanaging in this but there are some aspects that I that I do like where. You know everybody up the chain is aware of at least the hazards on a project coming out and you know obviously a hazard that should be spoken even though you know this was a Louisiana company working in Louisiana they know it. They know it's hot. They know it's human they live there. They live it every day. 27:49.30 Heather Okay, that should. 28:01.44 archpodnet And they bring in field texts and maybe they maybe because of that and again not put anything on the company. But I'm just thinking of my own circumstances where you know I might be used to high altitude Nevada heat in the summertime I'm not it sucks but I might be and I bring somebody out from. 28:13.00 Rachel Um. 28:17.00 archpodnet You know, like like we had we had Paul from the architect podcast on a project last year and he's coming from sea level in New York and to you know to be honest I didn't even think about that I didn't even think about the fact that he was coming out to 4 to seven thousand feet to work in extremely dry temperatures. He's not like a super young man. 28:25.40 Heather I Think yeah hey. 28:28.37 Rachel Dabbed. 28:34.28 Rachel 56 28:35.32 archpodnet You know he's ah you know I'm just saying I like I didn't even cross my mind to discuss those things with him and and you know and do that now. He's a smart guy. He's ah you know he's been around the block. He's worked in you know he's in Saudi Arabia literally right now on a project so you know partly because of that maybe I didn't think I needed to say it. But. I think it should be said either way and just as another example of this too of something that should be done and again in in the case of Kalin there wasn't even time to do this but I was on a project I don't know god it was probably close to ten years ago now and I was just made a project manager at this company at areno. And I was given a ah like it was a couple none survey and I had a crew out there I had a couple of green people and and I had somebody I had people I didn't even know right I had they were just hired recently. Um, either for the project or just hired recently and for the company and None of the guys who was an older guy. He was. Probably 1520 years older than me at the time and he was just really struggling and we weren't going up hilllls or anything like that and I looked back a couple times and not even I mean it was hot but it wasn't like unbearably hot at the time yet at least at least you know not to me and I'm um, pretty much a sissy when it comes to heat. So. Wasn't hot to me I was figure like it was doing pretty good but he's just like bend and over just like can't move and I'm like dude what is going on and then I come to find out that he's had like a quadruple bypass and like 4 open heart surgeries last like None ears and I just like that's. 30:04.70 Heather File. 30:04.81 Andrew Kinkella Right. 30:05.46 Rachel Um, yeah. 30:09.82 archpodnet That's too much and and I told my supervisors I was like listen. He's a great guy I like him but he's off this project and until you know he's either going to work Gis which is what he wanted to do or he's going to maybe he can do some projects in the fall when it's cooler but he just cannot be out there and you know have a heart attack while he's doing survey. That's not worth it. 30:18.98 Andrew Kinkella Alright. 30:26.34 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, he. 30:28.74 archpodnet And so sometimes you got to recognize that and say it and even though it's going to piss somebody off and you know they might become unemployed after that because there's nothing else for them to do. But at least they're alive. So yeah. 30:36.69 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, that is worth it every time again. That's that leadership moment and that that also brings up. You know when you're on a crew and you're out there doing something like that you can tell when somebody's really struggling like you can see it on their face. You can see it on their skin. 30:48.70 Heather Ah, here. 30:48.83 archpodnet Oh yeah. 30:49.41 Rachel Move. 30:54.60 archpodnet Um, usually it's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, say something. 30:54.82 Andrew Kinkella You know their body position. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying and like like you'll see people where you're like oh man, you know and then um I try and talk I try and talk with them and I'll talk with if there's anybody above me, you know because you you have to bring that out I'll also say we talked about shade for a moment. 30:57.85 Rachel He. 31:08.39 archpodnet Ah. 31:14.80 Andrew Kinkella There's a such thing as good shade and bad shade and ah, always tell people who are in real bad straits I'm like look you need to sit down drink some water and sit in the good shade and by good shade I mean black shade not dappled shade and in and in a worst case worst case environment The best shade. 31:14.73 Heather Ah. 31:15.00 archpodnet Um. 31:26.49 Heather Bright. Yes. 31:26.90 Rachel And the. 31:27.90 archpodnet Um, yeah. 31:32.97 Andrew Kinkella Is underneath the truck. It's okay, don't be afraid to lie underneath the truck because you want to get in the truck. What if there's no air conditioning and even in there, there's glass the sun's beating in underneath the truck in a worst case scenario you drink water underneath the truck in in good shade. 31:33.52 archpodnet And. 31:43.31 archpodnet Yeah. 31:44.87 Rachel Here. 31:49.97 archpodnet Indeed heather. 31:52.51 Heather I forgot if I was going to say you can that out I forgot oh oh I remembered oh I okay so the the 1 thing is and and I'm you know I'll I'll admit I'm guilty of this. Um, there have been times where. 31:55.90 Andrew Kinkella Are. 31:57.00 Rachel Ah, well speaking of ok, no go ahead. But. 32:11.70 Heather Somebody wasn't feeling well and we're on a project and we're all like we're all pushing ourselves but we're the rest of us are okay and a couple people are not and I think that as people we need to be compassionate. Because you know when you're under stress and you're working hard and you're tired and whatever you can get cranky and so the um, the little devil part of you when somebody says I'm not feeling bound. They get to go and sit in the air conditioned trunk and you're continuing to work. 32:33.26 archpodnet I know. 32:44.59 Heather Is that you have this like oh they're being a sissy or whatever you know and just you know that's a reminder that we need to be good to each other. Um, there are conditions that other people have that you don't know about and if they. 32:53.38 Rachel Have you. 33:00.30 Heather Don't do all that well in the sun. Um I know I don't do as well as other people do in the sun and I wouldn't want somebody to look down on me because of that and so just you know remembering that being a buddy is also having compassion for each other and understanding that sometimes you're going to have to pick up the slack sometimes. 33:03.79 archpodnet Sure. 33:16.97 archpodnet Right. 33:20.50 Heather You know, not that you're doing something unsafe but sometimes they're just not feeling well that day and you don't know why it is and you have to have compassion for them. 33:24.28 Rachel Um, yeah, definitely I was thinking too that I think that planning for extreme weather should start in the office too right? like I don't. 33:27.47 archpodnet Right. 33:41.88 Rachel I think it's never a good idea to plan for very long transects or very long hiking situations when the weather is extreme because if something does go wrong and you're far from the vehicle. That's a problem number 1 and number 2 you should be doing smaller chunks of work so that there is the opportunity to take a break. 33:46.67 Andrew Kinkella Oh God Yeah yeah. 33:48.79 Heather Ah, here. 34:01.28 archpodnet Um. 34:01.69 Rachel Somewhere where you have shade if you're in the desert and there is no trees you know, but having the truck accessible to you with air conditioning and everything I think is really important and just just plan for that I mean yeah, okay sometimes it's really satisfying to do a mile long transect. 34:04.39 Andrew Kinkella No-hu. 34:11.75 Heather Yep. 34:18.98 Rachel But it's not really great if it's if it's really hot or really cold out or some other extreme weather. 34:23.64 Heather So I have so this this is something yeah I've done before where we have these really long. Um, really long projects specifically linear projects or very large projects is that when you have somebody like maybe your friend that you were just talking about Chris that or the person that. 34:24.10 archpodnet Yeah. 34:33.48 Rachel And here. 34:39.42 archpodnet Well. 34:42.37 Heather It wasn't doing well right? Sometimes it's really good and it it sounds like it's going to cost a lot of money but it doesn't because it actually saves time how many times do people do they walk over an area. They've already walked right? So you have a runner you have a runner and a truck and that's all they do and so that's a good role for somebody who maybe isn't feeling well that day. 34:47.99 archpodnet Um. 34:52.84 Rachel Um, yeah. 34:53.00 archpodnet Right. 35:02.19 Heather Or maybe wouldn't have been able to work otherwise because they're not physically in that condition but they could be a good runner in a truck so you have we've done that where we have ah we have one runner and that person goes back and forth and they had the radio and they're. 35:06.20 Rachel Yeah. 35:20.66 Heather Especially on a linear sometimes it just works out better that way and on ridge lines when we do Ridge Ridge lines or in larger big huge swaths of area. Um, and so you know that's another option. It's really just the hours of that person that it takes and really when you think about it for what you're billying out. That's what. 35:22.33 archpodnet Fair. 35:34.31 Rachel Um. 35:35.60 archpodnet Who. 35:39.92 Heather Another $700 a day that's actually not on a big project. You're not going to do that in a small project. So the only time you would do that would be on would be on a big project big projects can afford that kind of extra expense and in the long run. It actually is a lot more efficient. 35:43.59 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. 35:45.42 Rachel Um, that's a great idea. Um. 35:57.40 archpodnet Well I mean yeah I mean that's the thing too not to put this into business terms. But sometimes things have to be put into business terms I mean these big projects like like companies like yours Heather and the companies you're working for I mean they start. 35:57.70 Rachel Um, and safer. Yeah. 35:59.63 Heather Yeah. 36:06.87 Heather Yep. 36:12.99 archpodnet Losing permits and insurance and stuff like that if their safety rates go down so you know it it behoves them to do that. Ah. 36:14.90 Heather Yeah I was going I was just going to say that I was just I was just going to say that and that was 1 thing that I thought about when when you yeah before we even got on the podcast and that was that if an industry was that um. 36:15.51 Rachel Um, yeah, totally yeah. 36:32.31 Heather All companies had to adhere to these kind of safety rates now I do think they're a little messed up right now because there's you know there's instances that go against your safety count that really shouldn't so that does need to be tweaked a bit but. 36:35.92 archpodnet Then her. 36:43.53 archpodnet Sure. 36:47.73 Heather I Do think that if more projects were like that. The only reason that exists right now is because you have certain companies large companies that if they hire you as a subcontractor you have to have a good safety rating. Um, but not all contracts are like that a lot of contracts aren't like that. But if. That was more the case I think companies obviously would be doing a lot better when it came to their safety because it's hitting their bottom line. 37:12.60 Rachel Um. 37:13.00 archpodnet Indeed indeed all right? Well, ah, thanks guys for coming on the show. Let's do some final thoughts real quick and then we'll wrap this up so I'm going to hit Andrew first Andrew final thoughts on this topic. 37:24.20 Andrew Kinkella You know I'm just going to end with 1 more tip and trick. Ah for an extreme hot sweaty environment which is monitor your breathing and try not to over breathe yourself if you're in that kind of environment because it'll you'll so easily kind of go. Ah, ah her right? like just try and. 37:42.78 Rachel Bouhan. 37:43.38 Andrew Kinkella Take it a bit slower. It's almost like zen in the art of walking the rice paper. You know you kind of walk slow but meaningfully and if you can do that throughout the day you kind of save yourself So that's my last little bit's a tip and trick there you go. 37:56.84 archpodnet Nice Rachel. 38:01.20 Rachel I Think my final thought is just to never be afraid to say when something is not right with you and I've been the person who was afraid to say something So I understand the fear and the anxiety. But. 38:18.94 archpodnet No. 38:19.67 Rachel But don't be afraid and if you are afraid and if you do lose your job because you say something then that is not a company that you should be working for. They are not good and that you should move on. So don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and also companies don't look down on people who you know aren't as physically fit. We'll get there. 38:25.49 Heather Ah. 38:29.17 archpodnet Right. 38:37.85 Heather You. 38:38.88 Rachel You know sometimes it takes a minute to to get your field your transect legs under you. 38:43.69 archpodnet Right? heather. 38:46.52 Heather Well um, I'll say just to bring it back to the the reason we had this podcast was Kalyn and ah you know Wantn to offer my condolences. It's terrible I can't imagine even her partners even though they may have only known her for a day how that must have felt. 38:54.34 archpodnet Ah. 39:03.83 archpodnet Threat. 39:05.61 Heather I am actually really impressed that they did have you know they were you know doing cpr right away and that they were prepared to do that. That's wonderful I would say just in her honor if we all go out and we look out for each other. Um, then you know not like a life isn't. You know the death is in vain is never vain. But I mean that we are honoring this event by being kinder to each other being more compassionate towards each other and taking personal responsibility over our health and well-being. 39:38.12 archpodnet Indeed well said and I'll just end by just really parroting what what is in the startup community to be honest and something I kind of mentioned in the beginning is you always hear in in the startup community and people just starting out fail and fail hard they say until you hit success and I think. Where that applies here is people are afraid to fail themselves and I'm saying fail because we need to own that word. It's okay to say that right? It's okay to say listen I simply just can't do this right? and I don't think Kalin even had the chance to even say that I think what we're going to find out is. She did have some ah sort of underlying you know health concern or something like that that maybe she didn't even know about who knows but you know if anybody's out there right now in this hot hot hot summer or there's a tornado bearing down on you and you're just like listen this isn't for me, you know and and maybe it's not just the project. Maybe it's the region. 40:15.62 Andrew Kinkella Um, none. 40:31.56 archpodnet Maybe it's archeology and that's okay, it's not the end of the world. You can do something else. You know I didn't get my archeology degree till I was in my late 30 s and now right now I'm kind of not really doing a whole lot of archeology anyway and I'm in a completely different industry aside from the Apn and I'm doing okay, it's fine. There's no problem you know and it's just. 40:47.91 Rachel This isnt. 40:51.59 archpodnet You'll find something to do you'll find somewhere else to do it if you want to keep doing archeology and that's your passion. It's happening literally all over the country and you can go find another place to do it if where you're at is not right? Whether it's the company or the weather or whatever it is um, just own that and move on and live to. 41:10.15 Heather Ah. 41:10.56 archpodnet Transect another day. So with that we will end this episode please share this out far and wide. We're not putting any ads on this show I'm taking you know all this stuff out as you've heard since you've listened to the whole thing and you know we're not trying to get anything out of this. We want people to hear this message that that need to hear it. And and get it out there. So if you're listening to this please share it with your friends share it with your crew with your fellow field techs. Um, you know, share it with hooverever you can that needs to use this that needs to hear this and it doesn't just apply to Sierra Archeology it's any of these you know hot outside field jobs. You know it's it's all the same thing right? It's all the same thing. So. 41:42.96 Rachel Um, true. Yeah yep. 41:48.37 archpodnet We will link to ah the only link we're going to have in the show is the link to Kalyn's gofundme page um that her cousin I think put up in in for her family to help just cover. You know expenses the apn has donated please follow us and donate along with it along with us and you know help them out in this terrible time. So thanks guys for joining us on the show and for joining me on the show and we will be back next time with your regularly scheduled programming.