00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to the show. Everyone joining me today is Heather in Southern California Andrew also in Southern California and bill back up in Northern California 00:05.33 Heather Hi everyone. 00:09.89 Andrew Kinkella Hey guys, what's up. 00:14.60 succinctbill I Yeah I'm back They let me back in. 00:19.96 archpodnet That's right, that's right and I'm in Canada you know as we're traveling around I'm not even in the country anymore and I was just thinking about it. We hit all the big countries of North America in the last like three months because we were in Mexico back in April and obviously the United States and now we're up in Canada for a month so kind of fun. Anyway, we have got a couple of guests on who are in other parts of the country 1 in Arizona and one in England and I'm hoping Doug joins us because because Ken knows doug they work together. But either way I'm going to bring on Kenneth Atchison and Christopher Dore to talk about a recent paper that they. Presented about the Crm Industries so welcome to the show Ken and Chris. 00:59.93 Christopher Dore Thanks Chris hi everybody. 01:00.70 Kenneth Aitchison Thank you very much thanks for having us. 01:03.64 archpodnet Yeah, so does 1 of you want to go ahead and just give us out our quick synopsis on I guess what? the what the bre behind this paper is and and kind of what it's about a little bit and then we'll talk about the nuts and bolts of it. 01:18.49 Christopher Dore I'll jump I'll jump in on that one because I think I may have kind of instigated this although Kenneth and I had both been talking about it and talking about these issues but there had been. There's there's a labor shortage going on which is no big secret and it's happening both in the the U K and the us and and other places. 01:21.26 archpodnet Um. 01:36.37 Christopher Dore As well. Um, and you know questions started to be asked about why aren't there. Why is there a labor shortage. You know we know there's kind of a pan economy labor shortage. But why specifically within Crm and commercial archeology are there not enough people and fingers started to be pointing at different. Places and one of those places was the academy and that there weren't enough students coming out with degrees to fulfill the the labor needs of the the industry and Kenneth and I are both data nerds and so we wanted to you know, rather than than just. Listening to the rumors we wanted to actually get some numbers on this so we started looking at the numbers of degrees. Granted and that led us down a path of kind of ah it was a missing piece of data actually that allowed us to look at the the industry more as a system and kind of what was happening to that. But we also answered the question about are there sufficient degrees and and sufficient people to to come into the industry. 02:41.32 Kenneth Aitchison Yes, thank you Chris and I'd just like to add to that and this also of course came along at a time at at a unique time during the pandemic. What covid nineteen was doing so we were simultaneously seeing fine finding out. 02:41.41 archpodnet Okay. 02:51.91 archpodnet Um. 03:00.27 Kenneth Aitchison What this whether there was a relationship between number of degrees being granted and people getting into work and what the external effects of the pandemic were being on commercial archeology and the political responses and the levers that were getting pulled that turned out to have remarkable. Impact on Demand for archaeological work. 03:21.60 Christopher Dore And Kenneth do you do you want to also kind of mention the changing cultural views about work right? which are also kind of pan economic but they played a role within crm to about attitudes towards work and careers. 03:31.96 archpodnet Okay. 03:32.86 Kenneth Aitchison Yes, yes, ah, attitudes to work. Okay, as we've we've all heard frequently over the last year attitudes to work have changed as a largely as a consequence of the pandemic. I would say largely as a consequence of the pandemic and a lot of people being exposed to more flexible ways to work than they had been before and they realized that they like this and they want they they they want they kind of want more of that and so they want to be able to be thought about. 03:57.98 archpodnet Friend. 04:06.50 archpodnet Um. 04:10.93 Kenneth Aitchison Differently as as workers whether this is then this then affects their feelings if they want to seek new employment and affects their feelings when they want to renegotiate their position within the current workplace. 04:25.70 archpodnet Okay, yeah, it's interesting talking about this because I feel like as somebody who I've always done things a little bit differently in serm right? My wife and I traveled around. We actually sold our um. But I guess we didn't sell we we didn't renew our lease on our apartment or whatever back in South Carolina when we were living back there together and doing c orm locally and we wanted to work out in the west but you can't just get a job out in the west unless you kind of know somebody which we didn't so we just shole bummed for a couple years living on the road all our possessions inside of a Toyota for runner and. That was it and and we just had a different attitude I think than a lot of people towards where we were I always call the hotel room that we're in or wherever we happen to be I call that home you know and now we now we live in an rv we have for the last two years we're always someplace different every two weeks but we always come back to home and I feel like. Not only this sense of a career that you guys are talking about but this sense of a home that people have that has been ingrained to us is a sticks and bricks address with you know some places you can go back to is is so deeply ingrained in so many people that it's difficult to work a career that takes you away from that a lot because you're always looking back to it. And you're looking back towards stability and all that's tied into career and that's where I wanted to go from here next is you guys say throughout the paper here and the and the presentation that you gave us that you don't it's not really a. Ah, it's not really a job problem. It's a career problem right? It's ah it's ah it's almost a longevity problem. Can you elaborate on that. 05:56.39 Kenneth Aitchison Well and the most simple of sense is there are lots of jobs. There are more jobs out there than there are people wanting to do them So the the industry doesn't have a jobs problem it. 06:03.74 archpodnet I think Heather would agree with you. 06:07.54 Christopher Dore Yeah, if I could just jump in there people I think a key thing to understanding this too is what Kenneth just said about people wanting to do them what we learned about ah from looking at ° granted there are plenty of people trained and degreed and available to do them. But. 06:15.33 archpodnet In here. 06:23.68 archpodnet So sure. 06:26.90 Christopher Dore What we learned from this is they don't want careers within crm and commercial archeology. So sorry to interrupt you Kenneth. 06:30.75 archpodnet Yeah. 06:32.10 Kenneth Aitchison No no, that's that's exactly right? It's about desire to do this kind of work and we learned we've learned about that. There are lots of people coming out with the kind of degrees that normally lead to work in archeology. Whether that's anthropology degrees in the United States or archaeology degrees in the Uk. And people are finding that there are jobs available for them and jobs that suit them better and these aren't jobs in crm um, and they aren't jobs in archeology. So there's it's the issue is about turning those job opportunities into career opportunities. And as Chris W has just said people like the some people look for the security of a home base the last few years have seen a lot of people embrace flexibility more. But. 07:11.14 archpodnet Oh. 07:23.79 archpodnet Wrap. 07:27.99 Kenneth Aitchison This industry isn't necessarily securely offering either at the moment. 07:31.82 archpodnet Right? right? Bill. 07:33.41 succinctbill Yeah, um I mean my biggest question is how come people don't want to do crm um, is there any information from the surveys that I mean what is that telling us. 07:43.70 Christopher Dore Yeah, you know that's a that is the one of the questions and the problem with that is the only people that we really talk to are people and this was what you know what happened when we presented this this paper at the ah the cefa meeting in the U k. A few months ago, you know we heard kind of testimonial stories from a lot of people in the audience who you know got up and told their stories about their experiences which which essentially kind of fit our model but what we're lacking. You know we're arguing that a lot a ton of people are dropping out of the industry after those that choose to go in after a short period of time. 08:10.46 archpodnet So. 08:19.67 Christopher Dore And many choose not to even go into Crm um, at at all because here in the states anyway, the anthropology degree is a pretty valuable degree at the at the undergraduate level as well. It's a great skillset. You understand people you understand culture international aspects. You have some quantitative skills. 08:25.88 Kenneth Aitchison Moon. 08:37.56 Christopher Dore And employers in many other industries really value that and the the career path is is a much better path even looking at it at at that. Um that that point and now I'm losing my train of thought on um, the ah. 08:51.43 Kenneth Aitchison Um, ah and adapt to to what you saying Chris you with a a greener in anthropology you can get a good job. It doesn't have to be a job doing archeological work and you get a good well-paid job. 08:55.41 Christopher Dore Somebody jump in and say save me here where what was my. 09:02.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 09:02.83 Heather Yeah, let's drop it. 09:03.56 Christopher Dore Oh so exactly with with security and a home base and a career track and better pay. But the point is you know back to to bill's point. The people that we haven't talked to are all those people that drop out. 09:09.72 Heather Lost all. 09:18.59 archpodnet I. 09:19.94 Heather Oh. 09:20.28 Christopher Dore Because we don't have access to them and those are the people that right we really want to to talk to um to find out exactly you know what? what their stories are what their experiences were why you know for what reasons did they choose not to or have they chosen not to go into. To see a rem or commercial archeology. 09:39.11 archpodnet Okay. 09:39.16 Heather I Think from from the perspective you know I did have I have you know had some experience in the business world prior to getting into archeology and so I had some experience in you know, another job that was maybe a little bit more. Um. Typical and you know I think there's there's various reasons why people are not going into Crm. Um I think because there's a facade about Crm um out there that isn't exactly accurate. Um I think None of all the University is not all universities but many universities and we talk about this law and the podcast. 10:09.00 archpodnet And. 10:17.52 Heather Do not represent crm correctly. Um there is no, there's very little connection or very very little cooperation between crm entities and the university where you have crm professionals coming in and talking to students and telling them what their options are and what is the best pathway forward. Um, another reason is because on social media crm gets a really bad rap. Ah yes, there are a lot of companies out there that don't or I shouldn't say a lot There are some companies out there that don't treat their um employees correctly. But there's a lot that do and um. On the social media. It almost sounds like you know if you're joining these social media channels you're joining because you want you just kind of want to get an insight into what what you should be doing I mean I know if if I was starting my career and social media was out there. That's what I would have been doing trying to connect that way. And then all you see is ah you see a lot of negativity on there and so that's what starts getting ingrained in people's psyche is that that's what Crm is and then they think that there's there's ah, very other There's few other opportunities in order to have a good career which is not true. I know a lot of people who have very good careers in crm that get paid very nicely. Um, and if you're with the right company. You have a very direct career pathing the company I work for we do but work very hard on that and I know there's a lot of other companies that do that too and so. 11:48.47 archpodnet Um. 11:50.90 Heather Having the personal responsibility where people are so realizing. Okay, you know what instead of I don't like where I'm at right now. Um I'm going to change my um station in life right now they they just sit in the muck and I know that that. You know some of it's because they don't realize they think that that is what Sierra archeology is and it's not um, the one last aspect is that this is a very yes you can go and use your anthropology degree in other areas marketing I mean there's so just so many areas just like Chris was saying but. Um, it's ah that's different this the way this our profession is set up is you know you do start off typically in the field unless you have a real strong skill set otherwise and so you're set you're set up in the field where these other types of careers. You can go in entry level and have a full time job right? off the bat and so. That is something maybe sea or um, can work on although it would be very difficult to be competitive in the marketplace and do that for some companies. 12:55.47 succinctbill Now I I kind of have a response to all that stuff I I kind of I agree with you to a certain extent heather but it's not most companies are good. It's you know, most companies are not good in my you know experience They weren't very good and it. 13:09.38 Heather It depends on where you're at yeah. 13:13.49 succinctbill And there's not very many people like us so you know we're looking back after 20 years but most of the people who came up with us. They're not in cm anymore they they went and did other stuff so I don't know I mean it's like an industry-wide problem. That folks get in. They're not treated very well from the beginning and they're not treated very well all the way until they get to the point where they have the potential to treat others well and then you know people who have been hurt tend to continue to hurt people and that was my experience in cr and just archeology in general. But the the None thing that I'd say about you know students because I work with them. A lot is they just. 13:32.93 archpodnet M. 13:46.56 succinctbill Want to find something with some kind of security because if you think about it these folks that are in their twenty s you know they were in elementary school during the recession and the watch their parents and all that precarity that comes along with that they were born in the wake of another economic downturn and then they've just gone through the pandemic I mean I've talked to students that. Enrolled in school and now it's their senior year and they've never had you know in-person you know school they had you know part of a semester when this whole thing none started or one semester and then now they're seniors and this is their last year as an undergrad and it's like this whole generation The only thing they've known is you know instability and so. If. There's any kind of something that promises a level of stability for a couple years that is a really attractive magnet right. 14:31.72 archpodnet Indeed Andrew. 14:34.19 Andrew Kinkella Oh I would just say as we're talking about you know cm as a career I would say the the thing that made me stop the c r m bandwagon or at least put it on a serious pause was the idea of how do I advance in Crm you know I think if we want. To fix our career problem in serre we have to make it obvious to people who get into serum. How do you advance? What are the steps I never knew that and I still have problems with it I'm like okay if I get hired by I see our m firm I'm prepared to just be a dig bomb. You know out on the site. But a year in 2 years in what are what are the other steps like where do I go from there. Okay yeah I could be like a crew chief or something but what's the structure of a serum firm and where can I go to truly have a career and I don't think I think we do a really terrible. 15:24.17 archpodnet So. 15:29.56 Andrew Kinkella Job of answering that question for students and for young professionals. 15:33.24 Christopher Dore Um I. 15:35.00 Heather That's why we need to have cooperation between crm the the the business and universities where where we are talking about those things I Totally agree. 15:40.86 archpodnet Right? Yeah Kenneth go ahead. 15:42.70 Andrew Kinkella You know, just. 15:46.59 Kenneth Aitchison Yeah I mean I'd like to think about that the issue of the not then being ah are people not knowing about the career that's in front of them I think this might be a little bit different in the Uk I think when people work for the big archeology companies in the Uk and remember. The big archeology companies in the uk employ more people more archaeologists than the biger m firms in the United States the companies like Mullla or Oxford Archaeology or wessex archaeology they employ hundreds of people and there is a structure there and there is. 16:18.29 archpodnet M. 16:22.76 Kenneth Aitchison Pretty clear routes to advancement through that and when people come into the world of work at a place like that. It's apparent to them how the whole business is structured and that this is a mirror of the businesses that you're competing with. Universities that are teaching people might not be making people aware of this so there is a structure but in the Uk it has a dreadful weakness that these are very flat organizations. 16:43.51 archpodnet M. 17:00.39 Kenneth Aitchison In terms of salary and progression because the big organizations are all not-for profits charities and they have to publish what their chief executive or their highest earners are earning every year and when you look at a company that employs. No. None people but your chief executive is not being paid £100000 a year. It's called none a year that is not comparable with other industries so because it's so flat the potential for financial progression is limited. 17:36.56 archpodnet Um. 17:38.80 Kenneth Aitchison And people might not realize that when they start off and this one actually will come back round to what I think both Chris and I just to speak for you there Chris what we both think of as as one of the biggest problems which is undercharging by the crm firms. 17:51.20 archpodnet Um, right all right? Well on that note I think we'll take our first break and we'll come back on the other side and continue talking about this problem and the and you guys is paper and you know maybe what we can do about it So we'll do that on the other side back in a minute.